Worship

[ash]

Jumping
Dancing
Swaying
Arms raised

I don't think God cares how we worship - as long as it's in Spirit and in truth. When we die to the flesh and let loose - that is when I think we truly worship because we forget about ourselves and our own needs and we can just focus on God. How do you worship when no one is looking? You probably don't worry about pleasing people by lifting your hands or giving a jump. Right?

Why do many churches put so much time into disarming the power of worship? Why must they try to bring true worshipers down?

My main question is: Do you really think God gets angry if someone decides to jump, lift arms, or (dare I say) dance for Him?

I would think God would be pleased and blessed by true worship.

Your take?    

[Josh]

There are appropriate ways to worship and there are inappropriate ways to worship.

In other words, there are biblical ways to worship and there are unbiblical ways to worship.

And God cares. Westministerian theology uses the term "zeal"; God is "zealous" about the way in which we worship Him.

I'll elaborate if it is needed, but, for now, suffice to say that we should all study the Word and see for ourselves the ways in which God desires to be worshipped.

[Josh]

As I ponder this further, I think I should also offer the caution that worship is not about what you feel. A lot of times it can be easy to get caught up in empty emotion, what with contemporary praise and worship music being as manipulative as it is.

There's nothing wrong with emotion per se, but when we mistake our feelings for something Divine then we tend to get into trouble. After all, emotions come from the heart, and the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

Let me again comment, then, that God tells us clearly how He wants to be worshipped in His Word. Let us not ignore that.

"Just 'cause you feel it doesn't mean it's there..."

[bethany]

I'm curious, Ash...how do you feel that churches try to bring "true worshippers down"? Or disarm the power of worship? You yourself said it's a personal thing, so isn't it the responsibility of the worshipper in that case to worship as they see fit?  

[Josh]

to an extent....but if Jesus is living in our hearts....theoretically, our feelings and actions should reflect that to a degree, no?

To an extent, maybe, but I still say that the human heart is too unfaithful and deceitful to be trusted in such matters.

Welcome to the board, by the way.  =)  

[beautifulmess]

I think the most important thing to keep in mind regarding worship is that it's a lifestyle. Worship isn't something we should turn on the moment we enter a church building and turn back off the moment we step outside. Worship is a daily thing, a daily choice. It's simply giving to God what is His all along, whether that's through tithes, singing, or whatever else.

[oneafroboy]

I'm not suggesting that you're implying Aquinas theology, but it certainly seems like you're suggesting it Josh. Not only is the heart corrupt but so is human intellect. So even human intellect cannot be trusted as pure, but it too was corrupted with the fall. All of man fell, not just his heart.

I think that going into worship through music--as it seems that people are implying, since worship is a lifestyle, and I consider listening to a sermon just as worshipful as singing--only to get something out of it, only to get an emotional high is wrong. First of all, worship is about God and not ourselves. Second, there are many ways to worship in music: physically, emotionally, intellectually.

I think different churches usually emphasize one and lack the other. I think the important thing is to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. We must be in the Spirit and have hearts (and minds for that matter) that desire to bow down before the throne of God, and we must worship in the knowledge of God's Truth, manifested in His Word and in His Son Jesus Christ.

I really enjoy how my church handles this (usually). We sing a mix of hymns (in a gospel style) and other gospel songs (a mix of traditional and contemporary). People sing, clap, and occasionally dance during the songs. Sometimes the music is lively and at other times it is more subdued, but still equally "intense" in worship. We have a variety of songs, and many contain doctrine and such (we are AME, and John Wesley's purpose for hymns was to help teach people doctrine). Others are more prayer-like.

Overall, I think a lot of "style" is preference. There's nothing wrong with hymns. And there's nothing wrong with having more lively songs. Both are appropriate. I think what's happened in a lot of modern, contemporary, young churches is that there's a large emphasis on emotion and getting caught up in feelings. Similarly, I think older, more traditional churches make hymns the end-all be-all, when even hymns at one point were controversial, and that it is possible to truly worship God with other types of music.

Btw, does anyone think it kind of strange how we put so much emphasis on music in our church-going experience?

[Josh]

Not only is the heart corrupt but so is human intellect. So even human intellect cannot be trusted as pure, but it too was corrupted with the fall. All of man fell, not just his heart.

This is very true, afro, although I would assert that intellect being emphasized too much in worship is not nearly as common a problem as emotion being emphasized, hence me singling out the one issue. But yeah, you're absolutely right.

Similarly, I think older, more traditional churches make hymns the end-all be-all, when even hymns at one point were controversial

My church sings some hymns, but, recently, has started singing mostly Psalms, set to the tune of hymns. I've been pushing for this for a long time and am overjoyed to see us heading in this direction. Frankly, I think that a lot of problems in the church would be solved if we stuck to the Psalms in our worship services.

it is possible to truly worship God with other types of music.

I'm not necessarily bashing other types of music, but I would reiterate my point that God lays down guidelines for how He is to be worshipped in His Word, and we would be wise to follow them. The prevailing view in broad evangelicalism is that anything is permissible in corporate worship, that it is, as afro puts it, largely the preferance of the worshipper, that so long as it is in some way God-centered that it is suitable for corporate worship. This thinking is simply erroneous.

Btw, does anyone think it kind of strange how we put so much emphasis on music in our church-going experience?

Not really. After all, the Scriptures are full of exhortations to worship God through song. But then again, the Bible also speaks clearly of the importance of preaching the Word and praying the Word in worship, so maybe you're on to something...

[DvChWi]

My church sings some hymns, but, recently, has started singing mostly Psalms, set to the tune of hymns. I've been pushing for this for a long time and am overjoyed to see us heading in this direction. Frankly, I think that a lot of problems in the church would be solved if we stuck to the Psalms in our worship services.
 

I'm not so sure about this.  Though most Psalms work quite well for worship, I don't see any support for the idea that we should use then as our sole source of music for church.  Many great, thoughtful, theologically sound songs have been written by non-Biblical authors.  What's wrong with using these?  Simply use discernment when selecting which songs to choose, as not all meet the standards we would hope for.  Is this Psalms based program just a way of guaranteeing the soundness of each song, or is it a Bible based, we-should-only-use-Psalms-because-thats- the-right-thing kind of stance?  If its the latter, whats your scriptural basis?

[oneafroboy]

I'm not necessarily bashing other types of music, but I would reiterate my point that God lays down guidelines for how He is to be worshipped in His Word, and we would be wise to follow them. The prevailing view in broad evangelicalism is that anything is permissible in corporate worship, that it is, as afro puts it, largely the preferance of the worshipper, that so long as it is in some way God-centered that it is suitable for corporate worship. This thinking is simply erroneous.

I don't think God's Word says anything about style. I don't the Bible at any point says, you must only sing hymns, or you can only sing gospel songs, or music without drums is not allowed. I do think that the heart is what's important and that many instruments and styles (even if not all) can be used in corporate worship.

My church sings some hymns, but, recently, has started singing mostly Psalms, set to the tune of hymns. I've been pushing for this for a long time and am overjoyed to see us heading in this direction. Frankly, I think that a lot of problems in the church would be solved if we stuck to the Psalms in our worship services.

I don't think that a lot of problems in the church would be solved by just singing Psalms. First of all, I think that stunts the growth of the arts in church, specifically the art of writing good lyrics (which I find lacking in some contemporary worship songs). Why not encourage present-day Psalmists to write hymns for people today?

Overall, Josh, I'm really, really curious about all these places in the Bible that set rules down for corporate worship. I haven't really read them, except the one about worshipping in Spirit and in Truth. If you can give us some verses, that would be very helpful. Until then, I can't say I agree with you on everything, but I like the fact that you want to improve corporate worship through music. (Also, I think there's a problem in the church regarding teaching, which is why I asked that question about the emphasis on music, but that probably deserves a thread all its own...)

[Josh]

Personally, I prefer Psalm-singing simply because it's a great way to memorize Scripture. And what better words to use than the inspired Word?

But I didn't mean to suggest that I disapprove of all other songs; I'm just saying that Psalms are what I, personally, prefer. I do think, though, that the songs we sing should be Scripture-rich; I only like using hymns that are rife with biblical phrases or are paraphrases of Scripture. Again I ask, what better words than the inspired Word?

[ash]

[ash]

I'm so glad this topic is getting hit!

[Josh]

NEVER can someone tell me how not to worship my Jesus.

...except Jesus Himself, of course.

[oneafroboy]

Josh, I think that's like saying that pastors shouldn't create their own sermons--they should just copy and paste from Paul.

I think God works through people, and works through their creative processes, and although I do think sermons and the like should be Bible based, as pastors grow in their understanding of the Word, they should be able to share that insight with their congregation.

Likewise, in songs of praise, I think we can benefit from the creative processes of others in worship music. It's music, it's art--probably more of an art than sermon-writing, which doesn't make sermon writing any easier--and there is room for people to create. People can praise God through songwriting or lyricwriting or melodywriting, and I think it's fine if people find commonality in them and want to use them for corporate worship. I'm not saying songs shouldn't have biblical base. I think it's good to have songs rich in Scripture, but that's not the only way to memorize Scripture (take liturgy in general for example). And people can write songs based off a life experience that Christians can universally relate to that isn't directly taken from a passage from the Bible.

I don't think it would necessarily be a good thing if the Church said no to all new worship songs, threw out hymns (except the ones with word for word verbatim Scripture references), and only use Psalms. How does that foster art? And if that were the case, many Negro spirituals would go out the window, and some of those are the most moving and profound worship sounds ever written.  

[ash]

...except Jesus Himself, of course.

Of course. I'm sorry, I thought that was a given.  =)

Josh, I think that's like saying that pastors shouldn't create their own sermons--they should just copy and paste from Paul.

I think God works through people, and works through their creative processes, and although I do think sermons and the like should be Bible based, as pastors grow in their understanding of the Word, they should be able to share that insight with their congregation.

Couldn't have been better said, nice job oneafroboy! (interesting name BTW...)

[Josh]

Josh, I think that's like saying that pastors shouldn't create their own sermons--they should just copy and paste from Paul.

No it isn't. Worship songs and sermons serve two entirely different purposes; sermons are meant to educate, therefore some explanation and clarification of the Scriptures is needed.

I think God works through people

I know what you're saying here, but, for what its worth, I don't think this is ever a particularly good argument to use. God works through everything-- he worked through 9/11 but that doesn't mean we should go crashing planes into buildings, etc.

And people can write songs based off a life experience that Christians can universally relate to that isn't directly taken from a passage from the Bible.

And such songs are great... but I'd be hesitant to use them in corporate worship. A song that it man-made, after all, is bound to be incomplete or misleading or unclear or just plain erroneous. As I said in an earlier post, what better words than the inspired Word?

I don't think it would necessarily be a good thing if the Church said no to all new worship songs, threw out hymns (except the ones with word for word verbatim Scripture references), and only use Psalms.

You'll notice that I never suggested that this be done. I mentioned that my personal favorite songs to use in worship are the Psalms, but I also said that I had no problem with many hymns, etc.

How does that foster art?

Fostering art is not the point of congregational worship.

[oneafroboy]

No it isn't. Worship songs and sermons serve two entirely different purposes; sermons are meant to educate, therefore some explanation and clarification of the Scriptures is needed.

You yourself, Josh, said that it was good to use the Psalms and Bible passages because it would help people memorize Scripture; is that not a form of education--learning Scripture? You must believe in some overlap of their purposes then...

And such songs are great... but I'd be hesitant to use them in corporate worship. A song that it man-made, after all, is bound to be incomplete or misleading or unclear or just plain erroneous. As I said in an earlier post, what better words than the inspired Word?

If we follow your logic *consistently*, then pastors shouldn't "clarify" the Scriptures, because it is of course "bound to be incomplete or misleading or unclear or just plain erroneous". In fact, I think there might be more danger of a sermon having the aforementioned attributes than a worship song.

Instead of being scared of human inaccuracy, let's check human creativity with the Bible. When we are listening to sermon, make sure the guys not saying something anti-biblical or heretical. When we are worshipping through music, make sure the lyrics we are singing are in accordance with biblical beliefs.

A couple of other points and questions:

You'll notice that I never suggested that this be done. I mentioned that my personal favorite songs to use in worship are the Psalms, but I also said that I had no problem with many hymns, etc.

Why hymns and not modern songs? At one point hymns *also* were contemporary songs.

Fostering art is not the point of congregational worship.

I think that art is a form of worship, and sometimes art *can* help us to corporately worship God (which is a lot broader than church services). Why *not* encourage people to write great songs that others can connect with that foster communication with the Divine?

QUOTE 
I think God works through people


I know what you're saying here, but, for what its worth, I don't think this is ever a particularly good argument to use. God works through everything-- he worked through 9/11 but that doesn't mean we should go crashing planes into buildings, etc.

Point taken, but I think we're all intelligent enough here to know the difference between writing worship music and murder.

My point is that I think it's good to makes ure the music we corporately worship with in Church is good, edifying and biblical, but I don't think that means we should stick only to the Bible and totally reject human creativity. And as far as I know (unless Josh proves me wrong) there's nothing in the Bible that says we should not write songs of praise as the people of God and that we cannot use them in church.


 

[DvChWi]

Another point that Afro brought up last night when I was talking with him on AIM was that the Psalms, though excellent, contain nothing more than pointers to Christ.  Christ has already come and done his work, and the none of the Psalms reflect this idea.  The waiting is over, the bridegroom has come.  So, singing only Psalms would limit the scope of your worship.  Christ HAS come and died, and songs that reflect this idea are great aids to worship.

[Josh]

Another point that Afro brought up last night when I was talking with him on AIM was that the Psalms, though excellent, contain nothing more than pointers to Christ.  Christ has already come and done his work, and the none of the Psalms reflect this idea.  The waiting is over, the bridegroom has come.  So, singing only Psalms would limit the scope of your worship.  Christ HAS come and died, and songs that reflect this idea are great aids to worship.

Actually, many of the Psalms are very Messianic in nature; my pastor refers to the Psalms as the fifth Gospel, and I think it's an appropriate way to look at it. The Psalms are full of allusions to Christ the victorious King.

[DvChWi]

Actually, many of the Psalms are very Messianic in nature; my pastor refers to the Psalms as the fifth Gospel, and I think it's an appropriate way to look at it. The Psalms are full of allusions to Christ the victorious King.

Allusions, yes, but outright praise of a Messiah who has already come and done his job?  Not that I've seen.

[Guest]

No it isn't. Worship songs and sermons serve two entirely different purposes; sermons are meant to educate, therefore some explanation and clarification of the Scriptures is needed.

After today's chapel, what do you believe worship to be, Josh?

I think you (a person) needs more than just Psalms. I love the book of Psalms, immensely! But, I still do believe that there's more to worship than just one book of the Bible.


 

[hannah28]

This interests me because I have never thought about certain kinds of worship as wrong or right.  Or of gudelines to worshipping.  I've grown up in  church where everyone worships in there own way.  We've got people dancing, yelling, jumping, raising hands.  And we've got people sitting silently in the corner.  I've never thought of either one as worshipping the "right" way or the "wrong" way.  I do think that worshiping is a lifestyle though, but in this sense we seem to be leaning towards worship in songs.  Im not saying I agree or disagree with Josh, I've just never thought about it, and maybe I should have.  I was wondering if you could possibly give me some of those verses you were talking about Josh?  Until then I'm kinda in the gray area for this.

[Josh]

I think you (a person) needs more than just Psalms. I love the book of Psalms, immensely! But, I still do believe that there's more to worship than just one book of the Bible.

I feel like I've been woefully misunderstood! All I ever meant was that my favorite worship songs are the Psalms; I do not claim that this book is the only thing that should be used in corporate worship. In fact, I myself go to a church that sings both Psalms AND hymns.

[oneafroboy]

My question remains Josh: why hymns and not contemporary songs? Are you against all modern worship songs?  

[Josh]

My question remains Josh: why hymns and not contemporary songs? Are you against all modern worship songs?

I'm hesitant to make such a broad statement as "all contemporary worship songs are poor," although I honestly can't think of any right now that I care for. Since my church doesn't sing them, though, I'm not exposed to them enough to really be very knowleddgable about modern worship songs...

In my experience, though, I have found worship music to be either:

Vague
Watered down
Feel-good
Theologically shakey
Irreverent
Distracting
Not particularly biblically-based
Manipulative
Or a combination of any or all of the things listed above.

And yes, I have some of the same problems with certain hymns. Many Wesleyan hymns, for example, are theologically unsound. But, by far, hymns tend to be much more appropriate than modern songs, in my opinion.

And I won't even get into the fact that the modern worship songs I've heard just plain flat-out suck...

[oneafroboy]

Actually I can't say that I really enjoy a lot of modern stuff (or at least what most people are familiar, unless someone else here sings gospel songs at church). I mean, mostly we sing that stuff at Intervarsity meetings on Wednesday.

I think lyrically speaking hymns are better. Melody wise, I think hymns are even superior (in general). Don't get me wrong, there are some contemporary songs I like, and I personally don't think every song I sing should be chock-filled with doctrine. I think some songs should be more simple (more mantra like) or more prayer-like. What I really enjoy are Negro spirituals or the old Negro hymns (as they're also sometimes called). Any of you guys enjoy spirituals too? What do you all think of 'em? (That is if you have been exposed to spirituals at all.)  

[Josh]

Actually, an old Negro spiritual works its way into my church service every now and then, believe it or now. It's always a special presentation by the choir rather than something the whole congregation participates in, but still important. I like 'em.

[ash]

Can you give an example of "spirituals"?

[enemy anemone]

I like quite a few spirituals. I mostly learned them by looking at piano books, hymnbooks, and other song books; I didn't learn/sing them in church. some of them I heard on compilation albums of various hymns.

some that come to mind that I like:
Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, Didn't My Lord Deliver Daniel, Let Us Break Bread Together, Lonesome Valley, Were You There?, Lord I Want to Be A Christian, Deep River, Sometime I Feel Like a Motherless Child, Wayfaring Stranger, Steal Away, and more that I can't think of right now...

according to this list, a few songs we might think of as ordinary hymns like Amazing Grace and We're Marching To Zion are also spirituals.  

[Guest]

Spiritals sound awesome! How about spirit led records? You know, the ones where they "go with the Spirit" during recording. Take?

[Josh]

FYI, all of you should try to snag a copy of Terry L. Johnson's book Reformed Worship. I heartily commend it to you all; it deals with the same kind of stuff we've been talking about here, and, at a mere 70-something pages, it's a very light, concise, easy read.

GREAT stuff.

[dgp11776]

I've always looked at worship a little differently, but nothing extreme.  Throughout the O.T., worship was charactarized by animal sacrifices to God.  This symbolized giving back to God what He had already given to man.  These sacrifices obviously pointed forward to Christ and His death.  As has already been mentioned, these shadows have passed for Christ has already come.  Therefore, I believe the biggest aspect of worship is presenting Christ back to the Father.  I think we do this more through prayer than singing.  Singing is more repetitious, and we are singing songs that are not directly inspired by God, as the Bible is.  So, essentially, we are using someone else's words to worship instead of God's word.  I believe a song aids in worship but is not worship itself.  However, it is evident in the N.T. that financial giving is also a form of worship.  Again, this is giving back to God what He has already given to us.    

[CrustytheCannibal]

To be honest during worship songs at church, I close my eyes and many times I couldn't tell you the words being sung. For myself, I find the lyrics and keeping up properly and all that stuff, a bit distracting.

I don't do that all the time, but I usually prefer it that way as I can focus in on Him much better. Then I usually just utter phrases of praise and thanksgiving and even some prayer to Him.