Over The Rhine drops an f-bomb...

[Escuchame]

...on their new album.

I haven't heard it, but Russ from Christianity Today has, and he thinks it's marvelous.  He was telling me that such a 'timely' word will inevitably warrant its exclusion from the weekly batches of reviews that he puts up on the site.  And that it can't qualify for best-of-the-year consideration (of which it's worthy).

Sensationalism for the sake of sensationalism?

Discuss.

Peace out,
Andree

 

[Josh]

Dude... how can we possibly discuss whether the word is called for or not, having never heard the thing before?

Having said that, some freinds at another board HAVE heard the album, and they say that the word is not at all inappropriate. It's apparently used in a context similar to Bono's use of the word in "Wake Up Dead Man." I feel confident that the word is used in a responsible way.

Glad to hear from another person who's in love with the album- I'm practically salivating!- and I'm sorry to hear that Russ is being disallowed to review it at CT; he told me in an e-mail once that he's definitely review the next OtR record, so it's a shame his editors are being so narrow-minded about it.

[Vlad!]

'Timely' word? Huh?

I think that a swear word can easily spoil a song. I can also think of several exceptions to this. After all, who can deny that U2's "Acrobat" is a great song, despite their use of the word 'bastard' (oh no! cover your ears!). So it's pretty narrow-minded to automatically refuse to acknowledge a song (or a whole album!) becuase of a single word. On the other hand, I would caution a band to use great care when considering the insertion of such language into their songs: the reaction may be cultural and illogical, but it's there, and to deny it is to delude yourself.

[Josh]

Good words, Vlad! Excessive use of such words takes away from the impact of such language; if Bono dropped the f-bomb all the time, "Wake Up Dead Man" might seem to be in poor taste. But he's only said it in one song in his career, and therefore it's a striking and powerful word.

Just one example...

[Escuchame]

Yeah.

Rest easy, guys.   The word IS indeed used in a way that I have no problem with... kinda like Bono's.  It's a plea for Jesus to come back and save this "f-ed up world," which is an appropriate and succint assessment of the condition of our planet of residence.

Peace out,
Andree

[Josh]

Jesus... Jesus, help me... I'm alone in this world... and a f-ed up world it is, too...

[DvChWi]

I personally think that Christian bands shouldn't be using words like that.  To me it says "Oh, look how much like the rest of the world we can be!  We can use naughty words, just like you!"  I think songs can have the same impact by using other words which to not have a negative stigma attached to them by our culture.  

[Josh]

I think songs can have the same impact by using other words which to not have a negative stigma attached to them by our culture.

Interestingly, we had a discussion about this at another board recently. Could "Wake Up dead Man" have been as powerful if Bono has used a substitute for the f-word? Possibly... but I can't think of any suitable alternatives. "I'm alone is this world... and a messed up world it is, too"? Naaaah. Not the same.

I think it's all about context, as I've said in other threads. Many Christians say they frown on violence in film, but one cannot tell a convincing war story without it. Similarly, I think there are times when, if it is used responsibley and in moderation, profanity is acceptable in songs.

[beautifulmess]

I think songs can have the same impact by using other words which to not have a negative stigma attached to them by our culture.

Well said.  

[beautifulmess]

Could "Wake Up dead Man" have been as powerful if Bono has used a substitute for the f-word? Possibly... but I can't think of any suitable alternatives. "I'm alone is this world... and a messed up world it is, too"? Naaaah. Not the same.
 

But if he hadn't used that word, would you really miss it?  

[Josh]

Very probably. Like I said, "messed up" or "screwed up" just sound silly. It's the only time Bono has used the f-word in song, and as such it carries considerable weight. He's responsible with his language; he doesn't throw profanity around all the time in his music, which would dilute the power of his words.

[Vlad!]

But if he hadn't used that word, would you really miss it?

I have to agree here, Josh: there are other ways it could have been said. Sure, the word gets your attention, but I think DvChWi put it well: secular music often tries to outdo itself in how offensive it can be. When a genuinely meaningful song seems to be embarking down the same road, it's not a cause to rejoice.

I personally think that Christian bands shouldn't be using words like that. To me it says "Oh, look how much like the rest of the world we can be! We can use naughty words, just like you!" I think songs can have the same impact by using other words which to not have a negative stigma attached to them by our culture.

On the other hand, I wouldn't say Christian bands 'shouldn't be' using words like that. Like I said earlier, issuing a blanket statement that says any song with certain 'taboo words' isn't a valid song smacks of closed-mindedness.

[Josh]

Keep in mind the fact that, like any other word, the f-bomb has *meaning*, and therefore there must be a place where you can use it. I think that "Wake Up Dead Man" is appropriate because it uses the word in its most literal sense. "I'm alone in this world/ And a fucked up world it is too." We have terribley violated the world that God has given us; it has been quite literally fucked up. So the use of the word in that song is totally different from, say, me becoming angry with someone and telling them to "f off," which would be totally uncalled for.

Does that make sense, or am I talking in circles?

[Josh]

But if he hadn't used that word, would you really miss it?

...and, as an afterthought, couldn't you say this about ANY word?

The point I'm trying to make in all of this is that, like ANY OTHER WORD, there are times when said f-bomb is appropriate and times when it isn't.  

[bloop]

It doesn't matter.  I want to check it out regardless.  Many of the groups I listen to use "bad" words sparsely in a way that I couldn't imagine another word in its place, and in ways that aren't particularly offensive (some examples on this page).  I don't really get the hang-up, honestly.

[kelliBJo]

don't really get the hang-up, honestly.

me neither. i've never understood the whole stigma surrounding the word anyway. certainly at times the word can be extremely powerful, like in how bono used it, and then again, other times it can be used in just everyday language.  

i guess, and i feel like i might be in the minority here, but i don't even understand what the big deal is in saying the word 'fuck' anyway. same goes for other words. in my opinion, they're just words. what makes saying that word so much worse than saying any other?  who ever developed the standard? in ireland for example, its common... and i could argue that it is in the u.s. as well... not that that makes it right, but what exactly makes it wrong?

yeah, it can be used in an offensive way. but so can saying 'i hate you' to someone or 'i can't stand you', when you really mean it.  what is offensive about the word itself?  saying 'that sunset is fucking beautiful' in absolute awe -] is that offensive?

i entirely respect everyone's opinions on this, so don't get me wrong.  and i certainly hold someone who never swears in a higher regard than someone who throws the words around carelessly with no respect to others.  

it's just i've never understood the hang-up, either....

 

[BigBird]

i have wondered that often, what made these words so much worse than what they mean?

i still try not to use them in my everyday outspewing of intelligente communications, just so i won't offend someone, oh well

[DvChWi]

What makes the words worse is only the perception our society has of them.   Since we can't control that perception, I believe we should stay within the acceptable words for our society.  Otherwise, we as Christians are viewed as "just like those other sinners" which, I suppose, we mostly are, but we strive to be better, because Christ's righteousnes is in us.

[Josh]

I think that thinking is dangerously close to striving for the acceptance of man, which is a biblical no-no.

[DvChWi]

Its not about acceptance, its about modeling Christ for the world.

[Josh]

I'm sticking by my guns on this one. This is art we're talking about, and art should be, above all, honest. I don't see any reason why using certain words in an appropriate and tasteful manner should be disallowed.

For what its worth, the review of Ohio that I posted in another thread includes the snippet of lyrics that contains the f-word in question, and it seems fine to me. Not much different from Bono's use of the word in "Wake Up Dead Man."

[DvChWi]

I'm sticking by my guns on this one.

And I'm sticking by mine, but this might apply to us.
 

[Josh]

I've used that passage in similar discussions, actually, though for different reasons. Good words, Dv. (Well, they're not your words, but you know what I mean).

[Emericana]

Oh well, guess I won't be picking this one up until I leave for the big School.

[bloop]

I think these words aren't a big deal to the culture as a whole anymore except some Christians, so what about modelling for them?  If they don't think there's anything wrong with it, then it follows logically that they aren't going to have a huge problem with us saying things like that from time to time, with discretion (not eff this eff that...that's still offensive to people, but every once in a while use doesn't bother most people anymore).

[Vlad!]

me neither. i've never understood the whole stigma surrounding the word anyway. certainly at times the word can be extremely powerful, like in how bono used it, and then again, other times it can be used in just everyday language.  

i guess, and i feel like i might be in the minority here, but i don't even understand what the big deal is in saying the word 'fuck' anyway. same goes for other words. in my opinion, they're just words. what makes saying that word so much worse than saying any other?  who ever developed the standard? in ireland for example, its common... and i could argue that it is in the u.s. as well... not that that makes it right, but what exactly makes it wrong?

Before I start, I'd like to thank DvChWi for linking that passage. It's one that always stirs something in me, and I'm glad to have it here.

Kelli, I have thought the same thoughts. Logically, as Josh says, it's a word with a legitimate meaning. How can someone (like myself) who says something is 'screwed up' at least once a day point a finger when someone else says it's 'fucked up' instead...I mean, they're both pretty much vulgar words that (logically at least) are used in the same manner.

On the other hand, I think DvChWi's stance is a good one: the word pervades our society (I should know, I'm a college student. I hear it daily), but does that make it OK for Christians to use? I mean, if we're supposed to embrace everything our culture throws at us, why don't we all have sex with people we barely know and pollute our bodies for the sake of pleasure? It's not something that can be fully defended logically, which makes it something that annoys me greatly sometimes when I'm trying to figure it out, but whenever a friend swears while we're talking, I wince. Maybe it's the Holy Spirit, and maybe it's the way I was raised. Either way, I certainly think we as Christians should maintain the outward aspects of purity, not because it will get us into heaven or for any ethereal reason, but simply because it's a good witness.

yeah, it can be used in an offensive way. but so can saying 'i hate you' to someone or 'i can't stand you', when you really mean it.  what is offensive about the word itself?  saying 'that sunset is fucking beautiful' in absolute awe -] is that offensive?

Good words, and it shows how superficial and (oftentimes) hypocritical society can be. I think rather than adopting ALL these mannerisms, though, we should strive to eliminate ALL of them. I've had some Christian friends--good friends--who have no problem with swearing. The ones who really make me feel built up and restored in the spirit, though, are the ones who talk in gentleness and love, and who don't interject swearing into the conversation, even when used in awe or in a strict literal sense.

This is art we're talking about, and art should be, above all, honest. I don't see any reason why using certain words in an appropriate and tasteful manner should be disallowed

Yeah, but c'mon--can these words ever be truly tasteful? Oftentimes they're used by Christians to generate cheap sensationalism, to get attention, or just to seem 'edgier' than the fundamental legalists the world thinks Christians are. OK, so I can see that, but the best Christian artists are the ones who can convey beauty, awe, disgust, and power without having to resort to swearing. It IS art we're talking about, but is it necessarily GOOD art? I mean, Eminem swears so often I feel that I have been dirtied just by listening to one of his songs...it's part of his culture. I don't care if it's part of his culture; it's a major reason why I hate his music.

[Vlad!]

I think these words aren't a big deal to the culture as a whole anymore except some Christians, so what about modelling for them?  If they don't think there's anything wrong with it, then it follows logically that they aren't going to have a huge problem with us saying things like that from time to time, with discretion (not eff this eff that...that's still offensive to people, but every once in a while use doesn't bother most people anymore).

If you shouldn't throw it around, why should you use it at all? Sometimes, usage might be legitimate or even artful, but if you acknowlege that it's something that shouldn't be used all over the place, is it really that much better to set up some sort of 'cursing quota' where you can use it but only in moderation?

[Josh]

Oftentimes they're used by Christians to generate cheap sensationalism, to get attention, or just to seem 'edgier' than the fundamental legalists the world thinks Christians are.

Oh, sure. And I think that such uses of questionable words is uncalled for and I count it as a serious flaw against the art.

I mean, Eminem swears so often I feel that I have been dirtied just by listening to one of his songs...it's part of his culture. I don't care if it's part of his culture; it's a major reason why I hate his music.

I concur, but not because of the words themselves; it's the way Eminem misuses and abuses the words. All I've been trying to say here is that it IS possible to use ANY word in an appropriate way, and, when that is done, I don't see any problem, "swear" word or not (because it's really not even swearing if you use it in the right way, is it?).

[Vlad!]

(because it's really not even swearing if you use it in the right way, is it?).

Well, it can still be vulgar. To use a somewhat amusing example, think of all the words we have for a toilet. I mean, even the word 'toilet' itself is rather delicate: toilet technically refers to actions such as dressing oneself and applying makeup (many older books will say ladies 'make their toilet' each morning in just that sense). It's all very delicate. If I were over at your house and I needed to make use of such an apparatus, I wouldn't stand and say "I'm gonna go take a crap now." No, I'd phrase it more appropriately, saying "I need to use the bathroom." Of course, context and society tells you I'm not going there to take a bath, but someone interpreting the literal meaning could easily derive that from what I said.

My point here is that just because you use a word in accordance with its literal meaning doesn't automatically make it either right or artful.

[Vlad!]

If I were over at your house and I needed to make use of such an apparatus, I wouldn't stand and say "I'm gonna go take a crap now."

By the way, the next time I'm at your house I think I'll do this, just as an 'experiment'

[oneafroboy]

I think these words aren't a big deal to the culture as a whole anymore except some Christians, so what about modelling for them? If they don't think there's anything wrong with it, then it follows logically that they aren't going to have a huge problem with us saying things like that from time to time, with discretion (not eff this eff that...that's still offensive to people, but every once in a while use doesn't bother most people anymore).

I would agree with the fact that many people do in fact use these words and at least in casual atmospheres, they are generally acceptable. However, for many there still *is* a stigma attached to them. Even though many people use them, they are still considered curse words. Why then would many people watch their language around young kids or watch what they say in a more formal setting? This is not to say it is a sin to curse. But I do think we as Christians need to think about how we should use cuss words, if we should use these words at all. We are called to be light and salt. Beacuse, like Vlad!, I wince at the use of cuss words, I tend not to use them. In their appropriate setting, though, perhaps they have their place. There is freedom in Christ, but with that freedom comes responsibility. (All that to say, I can't make a statement that it's wrong, but I don't think the should be tossed around casually.)

I'm sticking by my guns on this one. This is art we're talking about, and art should be, above all, honest. I don't see any reason why using certain words in an appropriate and tasteful manner should be disallowed.

Yes, art should be honest. I don't think they should be disallowed. As an aspiring writer and musician myself, however, I am ever so hesitant about using a "bad" word in my art. For me, personally, I feel it's a cop-out. Is there really no other powerful way to describe the world? I think that's up to each individual artist to decide. At the end of the day, if one can still give thanks for a piece of art created, I guess it's okay. If they wrote from the heart and that's what came out, I don't think we can condemn them. No doubt that these artists probably struggled with usage of such words themselves (maybe they didn't, I don't really know). You just have to realize that using such words can turn people off. (That means I can't play that song with my little brother around or in the earshot of my parents.)

Oh yeah. One more thing.

I think that thinking is dangerously close to striving for the acceptance of man, which is a biblical no-no.

I think there is a delicate balance to be had here. We are called to be in the world and yet not of it. We are called to be salt and light. But Paul also says that he became all things to all men so that some may be saved, so that the Gospel could reach everyone:
1 corinthians 9:19-23
"Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews, I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law, (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law, (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weark. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the Gospel that I may share in its blessings."
Should we not model Paul and do the same? Now of course, doesn't this shoot a nice little hole into the theory of not cussing because it's "worldly"?  

--The One and Only Afroboy (formerly MC)

[Vlad!]

Welcome to the phorum, and I can see no better way to start out than with a very thorough post like that  =)

To those not having the law, (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law

On the old forum we had a discussion about this as well, and I recall Andree pointing out that when he was with inner city kids or people who grew up their entire life using swear words, you couldn't derail a meaningful discussion to talk about swearing, so sometimes it was better to accept it or even engage in it to better communicate with someone who is seeking Christ. I think this is a good reminder, and I certainly don't think God would smile on the decision to not swear if it meant that we didn't communicate His word as effectively to someone who needed it...

[kelliBJo]

the word pervades our society (I should know, I'm a college student. I hear it daily), but does that make it OK for Christians to use? I mean, if we're supposed to embrace everything our culture throws at us, why don't we all have sex with people we barely know and pollute our bodies for the sake of pleasure? It's not something that can be fully defended logically, which makes it something that annoys me greatly sometimes when I'm trying to figure it out, but whenever a friend swears while we're talking, I wince. Maybe it's the Holy Spirit, and maybe it's the way I was raised. Either way, I certainly think we as Christians should maintain the outward aspects of purity, not because it will get us into heaven or for any ethereal reason, but simply because it's a good witness.

i completely see your point here, however are you saying that using those words is just as bad as casual sex? because i don't think they're similar at all... it seems a bit of a dramatic example...

as far as maintaining 'outward aspects of purity', that's very true and should be something all Christians should aspire to.... but where does one draw the line? i just can't see how swearing makes one impure...  or where one draws the line between 'shoot' vs. 'shit', etc...


i don't get the 'striving for the acceptance of men' argument, either. how is using those words with people who use them as well any worse than someone who wears Abercrombie clothing just like their friends do? just an example... i mean personally for me, using those words in daily conversations with people is just normal, not for shock effect, and since i don't see it as a sin, why should i cut those words out of my language?  when i'm around little children i do, of course, out of respect to their parents, but if there's nothing wrong with the words themselves, what is the problem in other situations?

concerning art, i totally agree that art should be above all, honest, and that sadly some artists do things for cheap sensationalism, and i really do hate that.  

oh, and i second what you guys said about witness...  those were good words...


 

[Vlad!]

i completely see your point here, however are you saying that using those words is just as bad as casual sex? because i don't think they're similar at all... it seems a bit of a dramatic example...

You said that 'in ireland, for example, it's common...' and I was agreeing with you that I have been in places where it is common as well. I was using casual sex as an example because that's another thing that goes on in a university setting and (at least in the dorm I was in) wouldn't get someone looked down on. I deliberately chose a dramatic example (cheap sensationalism...heh) to say that just because something is common doesn't mean it's right.

as far as maintaining 'outward aspects of purity', that's very true and should be something all Christians should aspire to.... but where does one draw the line? i just can't see how swearing makes one impure...  or where one draws the line between 'shoot' vs. 'shit', etc...

I wouldn't say swearing makes one impure in itself, but it does give an appearance of impurity. I don't think it really helps a person's witness if they claim to be a Christian yet their speech is as corrupted as anyone else's.

Where to draw the line? I don't really know. As Josh is fond of saying, God didn't put a list of naughty words in the Bible that we're not supposed to say. That's not the way it works. The 'dirtiest' word can be used with honorable intentions and everyday words can be spoken with spite and cruelty.

i don't get the 'striving for the acceptance of men' argument, either. how is using those words with people who use them as well any worse than someone who wears Abercrombie clothing just like their friends do? just an example... i mean personally for me, using those words in daily conversations with people is just normal, not for shock effect, and since i don't see it as a sin, why should i cut those words out of my language?  when i'm around little children i do, of course, out of respect to their parents, but if there's nothing wrong with the words themselves, what is the problem in other situations?

I think swearing just to fit in is just as stupid as buying more expensive clothing just to fit in. Why let others determine how you live your life? But while your clothing isn't going to offend anyone (actually, I take that back; it can ), walking around and spouting vulgar language just like everyone else can be offensive. And that's something I try to stay away from.

[kelliBJo]

I think swearing just to fit in is just as stupid as buying more expensive clothing just to fit in. Why let others determine how you live your life? But while your clothing isn't going to offend anyone (actually, I take that back; it can ), walking around and spouting vulgar language just like everyone else can be offensive. And that's something I try to stay away from.

i agree that it's stupid to do certain stuff just to fit in, and that it's also stupid to let others determine how you live your life.

i guess i was just saying that just like what someone wears can reflect a culture without reflecting the negative aspects of the culture, it's the same thing with language, in my opinion.  i just don't happen to view swearing as a negative aspect of our culture....  and still can't see a good reason to cut it out of everyday life when it's very much a part of how people communicate these days in very non-offensive ways...  of course it can be used in offensive ways, but so can any word...

anyway... that's all.  

 

[DvChWi]

Um, was the f-word edited out of the review?  Because I don't see it anymore.

[bloop]

i agree that it's stupid to do certain stuff just to fit in, and that it's also stupid to let others determine how you live your life.

i guess i was just saying that just like what someone wears can reflect a culture without reflecting the negative aspects of the culture, it's the same thing with language, in my opinion.  i just don't happen to view swearing as a negative aspect of our culture....  and still can't see a good reason to cut it out of everyday life when it's very much a part of how people communicate these days in very non-offensive ways...  of course it can be used in offensive ways, but so can any word...

anyway... that's all.

Totally what I'm talkin 'bout.

[Vlad!]

Um, was the f-word edited out of the review?  Because I don't see it anymore.

It's in the song, not the review...

[DvChWi]

It's in the song, not the review...

I knew that, but the song in question's lyrics were in the review.  Now I don't see them.

[Josh]

Yeah, Jeffrey *did* quote that lyric. It's in the song "Changes Come"... should still be there...?