ways of worship

[ash]

I was at worship practice yesterday at CAK (local school). It went well until a near debate occured. The lyrics were "you are beautiful my sweet, sweet song... You are my dancing rhythm..." DANCING RHYTHM! I asked the vocalists to be free, move, and God forbid, dance. One girl, said "well, what if I wanted to worship like this?" (she stood stick straight with her arms folded) I thought the smirk of "I'm right, you're wrong" had sarcastic roots...but she was serious! Okay, I understand why... Then we started singing "Undignified" which goes like "I will dance, I will sing, to be mad for my king, nothing Lord is hindering this passion in my soul..." Um... this is where I think we see who's free and who is still bound by the christian religion.

So, for those of you who know CAK (Josh, Vlad, Rachel, Fru) you know there isn't a more diverse bunch of kids... baptist to catholic, lutheran to charismatic...haha it's gotta be free if this worship team will acheive victory over the enemy.

My "question" would probably be along the lines of - What does scripture tell us about worship? Do you prefer free worship or more fixed worship (you can't lift hands, dance, etc)? and, what kind of worship brings the most glory to God? (maybe my opinion, or vision will be changed...)


Oh! I got to use the ephod thing when trynig to prove my point of free worship... with David being undignified... so that made me sound smart...lol =D  

[Rachel]

I don't think it matters to God the style of our worship. Granted for some songs we might dance (Undignified) and in others (Hymns for example) we might stand still. What matters to God in worship is the hearts of His people and that is what glorifies Him. Because if worship did not come from our hearts would it please God?

[ash]

i think if worship is only from our hearts - it's not from our whole being. In Spirit and in truth... not fully sure what "truth" means. We're suppose to glorify God with our bodies as well - I take that to mean more than "remaining pure" or abstinent. make sense? If we can get dancing at prom or homecoming and refuse to move a little in worship it makes worship cheap. Aren't we suppose to worship with our whole being? I think you had a good point with dancing when singing certain songs... =D  

[ash]

If we worshipped only b/c we got to dance or worshipped for the dance - then of course, that wouldn't be pleasing to God. I think both are needed, maybe both are needed to the same extent.

[Josh]

i think if worship is only from our hearts - it's not from our whole being. In Spirit and in truth... not fully sure what "truth" means.

Worship in Spirit= God cares about our attitude toward worship.

Worship in truth= God cares about the FORM of our worship. He cares that we do it in a way that is according to His Word.

So actually, contrary to popular belief, God DOES care about more than our hearts being in the right place. Just because you have worshipful intentions doesn't mean that you are worshipping properly. The Bible is full of stories of people whose hearts were in the right place, but, because they did not worship according to God's Law, God was displeased with their worship.

Having a good attitude is only half of it.

[Josh]

By the way, Ashley, a great man of God named Terry L. Johnson wrote a fantastic book about worship, called Reformed Worship. I highly recommend it to you, especially since you are a worship leader yourself. It's just about 70 pages, and it's very straightforward and simple, but it's packed with great insights into biblical worship.

[DvChWi]

The Bible is full of stories of people whose hearts were in the right place, but, because they did not worship according to God's Law, God was displeased with their worship.

 

Examples?

[Josh]

The Bible is full of stories of people whose hearts were in the right place, but, because they did not worship according to God's Law, God was displeased with their worship.

 

Examples?

Sure.

1. Cain. He offered "the fruit of the ground" to God. He was at least making an offering, so one could argue that his heart was in the right place (although, admittedly, the Bible doesn't clearly say one way or the other), but God was displeased. "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted?" He asks. The implication is that, somewhere along the line, He had set certain rules about sacrifices, and Cain was somehow breaking them.

2. The Second Commandment. The use of images in worship may be very well-intended, but it is displeasing to God. And, by implication, so is anything else that is not specifically sanctioned in Scripture.

3. The Golden Calf. Though this is lost on many modern readers, in the original Hebrew, the Israelites actually call their golden calf by the same name they called Jehovah. It was not a pagan idol; it was a visual representation of the true God. And, as the Second Commandment says, visual arts are simply not an appropriate form of worship.

4. Nadab and Abihu worship God in a way "which He had not commanded them," and He struck them both dead.

5. In 1 Samuel, God rejects Saul's worship simply because it is not biblical, and we are given the principle that "obedience is better than sacrifice." That is, our sacrifices are not what is important, even if they are made with a good attitude; God demands, first and foremost, obedience to His Word regarding worship.

6. In both Mark and Matthew, Jesus rejects Pharisee worship on the grounds that they are worshipping their way rather than God's way. "In vain do they worship me," He says. Worship that is not according to Scripture is in vain!

7. The rejection of Samaritan worship in John 4.

...to name a few.

[bethany]

I agree that there are forms that our worship should and should not take (singing - good. sex orgies - bad). But I don't think you can say that standing this way or this way is good or bad. In that case, I think it is about the person's heart, and you can't control that. Forcing someone to dance when they're not willing to isn't going to result in true worship - it's going to result in that person resenting you and spending the whole time thinking how stupid they look/feel.

As far as what I prefer, I prefer an environment where you can dance or stand still or whatever you want. Personally I kind of dislike it when there's a song that says maybe something like "I lift my hands and sing" and people lift their hands for that one line. It makes it seem like it isn't genuine, like we're all just playing 'simon says.' But that may just be me.

[beautifulmess]

Personally I kind of dislike it when there's a song that says maybe something like "I lift my hands and sing" and people lift their hands for that one line. It makes it seem like it isn't genuine, like we're all just playing 'simon says.' But that may just be me.

It's not just you. I completely agree. We should never "worship" because a song tells us to; we should worship out of love and passion for Jesus Christ.  

[DvChWi]

Hmm..In many of those examples you gave, I think you could make some convincing arguements as to why those people's hearts were not in the right places.  I agree that our worship should be according to scripture, but I would say the largest problem with most people's worship is their hearts being in the wrong place, rather than violating specific scriptural mandates concerning worship.

[ash]

So what exactly is being said here?

I believe there should be no boundaries as to HOW we worship. True worship (free worship) includes the freedom to move. When you have joy inside of you, you don't want to sit down...sorry but that's just the way it is. You want to get up and do a dance, all your own, before the Lord. I'm not talking seductive dancing - that's not glorifying to God. I'm talking about a dance the spirit gives to the worshipper.

Haven't we established that "in spirit and in truth" means more than just "the heart issue" right? So, what's next?

[bethany]

Ash, it sounds to me like you're looking for an answer that you can go back to your worship team and tell them: "We all need to dance to truly worship."  Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the vibe I'm getting from your line of questions. Lots of people worship in lots of different ways. Not everyone feels the urge to leap around and dance during worship. I feel the urge to curl up in a ball or lay down on the floor or sit and put my head in my hands as often as I do to dance or tap my foot or lift up my hands during worship. I think it's not only silly but dangerous to assume that everyone will, or should, react the same way during worship.

[ash]

Ash, it sounds to me like you're looking for an answer that you can go back to your worship team and tell them: "We all need to dance to truly worship." Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the vibe I'm getting from your line of questions. Lots of people worship in lots of different ways. Not everyone feels the urge to leap around and dance during worship. I feel the urge to curl up in a ball or lay down on the floor or sit and put my head in my hands as often as I do to dance or tap my foot or lift up my hands during worship. I think it's not only silly but dangerous to assume that everyone will, or should, react the same way during worship.

i think you're right. i'm learning how to do this. i'm certainly not a pro. my mom's a worship leader, as is my brother, and my entire family founded and has stayed with our church and pastored for over 35 years. I know the routine, but I want to know the Spirit. I just want, so bad, for this (worship) to be finished right before the eyes of the Lord, not my eyes. And, I'm so inept at it that it gets confusing sometimes. I gotta trust the Lord and rely on Him to do whatever He wants me to do. I need to be His tool, and am learning how to do that. God will take care of this.

thanks. =D  

[Josh]

Ash, I would offer this caution: Don't base your worship on your emotions. In fact, you'd probably be better off ignoring your emotions during worship, quite frankly. Remember, when man fell, it didn't just corrupt his spirit, but also his body, his mind, and yes, his emotions.

To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, your emotions deceive you. Don't trust them.

And yes, there should be limits on how we worship. In fact, there are limits on how we worship. God put them there.

[ash]

lol - I worship when I don't feel like it. this sweet gal wanted to cross her arms and stand like a stick figure because she felt like it. I don't believe we are to follow are feelings, we need to move past our feelings, and into the holy of holies..make sense? probably not

[Vlad!]

Josh, first, I want to congratulate you on finding some excellent examples of improper worship. These are much more convincing than the ones you had listed earlier in your weblog.

Last night in a Bible study I go to, the leader was talking about spiritual transformation. A sign of the presence of God and the spirit of God is spiritual transformation--not just outward behavior, but inner character. One of the examples he gave was worship: if you have a really intense worship experience, but there is no spiritual transformation, congratulations: you just attended a concert. It's not the power of God, it's the power of emotion.  

[ash]

Vlad, I think that's right on. Right now, however, I've noticed that when people say so and so "has a good heart" or their heart is in "the right place" when the person may do nothing, say nothing, respond with nothing - I'm talking nothing - to anything spiritual, bible studies, prayer, worship yada yada. But, when it comes to youth rallies and conferences they are all for it - that "Jesus, Jesus, holy moment, warm fuzzy" feeling that strikes most at conventions and rallies of the sort. I DONT WANT FAKE WORSHIP and I think God despises it. If the person refuses, I can only pray for them. There shouldn't be a refusal. But an attitude of "I want to worship how the spirit leads me to". I don't want choreographed worship, fake worship, or anything other than true, spirit driven, worship. Generally, there's no change in hearts or lives if the spirit isn't involved...right?

we are suppose to die to the flesh - we may not feel like praising God in the middle of our misery, but we may feel like praising him when he's given us a promotion or a blessing. But, we aren't slave to our feelings any more. Jesus took that away, right?

So far, I'm thinking that worship next year will be spirit led (that's a given) and I, as a leader(as scary and daunting as that is...), will be dancing when I feel the spirit leading me to do so. Otherwise, no, I'll be swaying or something...I don't know. I won't "force" others to dance or move if they can't see why it's important or rather pleasing to God. I will encourage them too, because that's a role of leadership (being examples that is of true worshippers). So.. does that sound semi decent? right? wrong? huh? what?

[oneafroboy]

Ash, you seem like a person who really wants to please God and is seeking the best way to worship Him.

However, I think it's wrong to assume that because worship through dancing is pleasing to God, people must dance. Playing piano can be an appropriate way of leading others in worship, but if someone can't play piano or isn't comfortable doing it, if they *don't* it doesn't mean they are doing something wrong.

Just as you want people to have freedom to dance, that should also give people the freedom not to dance. Not everyone can or feel comfortable dancing as they worship God through song and music. I know many people who have a hard enough time singing and clapping on beat at the same time! (A lot of them are my white brothers and sisters, hehe.   ) Can you imagine if they tried to dance? They would spend so much time on the movement, that they would cease to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. It would be distracting. God is much more concerned about the inside than the outside. If a person can create a sweet fragrance from simply meditating on the words, then God is pleased. And if a person can bring glory to Him through singing, He is pleased. Likewise, if someone dances. However, if someone is focused on what they're doing and *not* Him, then that's really not true worship.

Josh:

I don't know if I would say people should disregard their emotions during worship. God has created us as whole creatures with bodies, intellects and emotions. Whenever you're trying to get something out of worship, you aren't worshipping. Often times people are trying to get an emotional high out of worship. But if you come to the throne to praise and honor Him and you feel happy or joy or whatever, I don't think it's bad. You just have to watch yourself and continually ask God to give you a heart for worship.

Also, I always read Jesus' interaction with the Pharisees in kind of an opposite way. The Pharisees were very concerned with honoring God through the Law. So they criticized Jesus when He picked grain or healed people on the Sabbath, because it was against their laws. Or they criticized his disciples because they didn't wash their hands. I think Jesus was trying to get them to see beyong their laws and see that a life of worship is based on love--loving your God with all your heart, and all your mind and all strength.

That's not to say I don't think there are any inappropriate ways to worship. I think there are. I think you gave some great examples. Modern day examples might be too much emphasis on emotions and trying to get that high. Laser shows during worship through music and pyrotechnics. (Or I think they're wrong, anyway.) I think we really need to be mindful that we *are* worshipping the God of the universe, the God of all that ever is, was, or will be.  

[Josh]

But if you come to the throne to praise and honor Him and you feel happy or joy or whatever, I don't think it's bad. You just have to watch yourself and continually ask God to give you a heart for worship.

Yeah, I would agree with that. I shouldn't have said that emotions should be ignored, I guess; but emotions should be the result of worship, not the cause of it, if that makes any sense.

Good call, afro.

[ash]

I was worshipping today. The thought of some people dancing at this school made me laugh. If you've been there, you'd know why b/c that goal seems humorously (new word) impossible.

Rest assured, I wont force anyone to dance. I want people to know they are free to do whatever they feel. If they can't worship in spirit and in truth, then maybe they should be off the worship team. That won't actually happen, removing anyone. But, that's the way it should be - say those in authority over me. As examples we are to show true worship, free worship - not one form of it, but all forms...

[polka_dot]

1. Cain. He offered "the fruit of the ground" to God. He was at least making an offering, so one could argue that his heart was in the right place (although, admittedly, the Bible doesn't clearly say one way or the other), but God was displeased. "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted?" He asks. The implication is that, somewhere along the line, He had set certain rules about sacrifices, and Cain was somehow breaking them.

We just had a sermon on this last week, so I just wanted to suggest something.  In Genesis 4, it says:

2 Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD . 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor.  (NIV)

This passage says that Cain and Abel had 2 different jobs - and so each gave a different offering.  God knew that Cain worked the soil and did not keep sheep.  Was God upset that he only gave "fruits of the soil" instead a lamb?   I read it differently.  It says that Abel brought "fat portions...of the firstborn of his flock", whereas Cain brought "some" of the fruits of the soil.  It seems to me that Abel spent time carefully choosing a perfect lamb to bring to God, while Cain just picked anything out of his garden and brought it.

I think this passage is not about the proper way to worship - it's about giving our best to God.  The whole point of the sermon last week was that God is not pleased with our leftovers.  He wants the "fat portions" of our life.  Just a thought.

As for the dancing in worship thing, I go to a city-wide worship night sometimes, and the leader there has said on more than one occasion that it's okay to dance if we want (though it's held in a Baptist church   ) - though hardly anybody takes him up on it.   What irkes me is people that purposely put on a show to let people know that they are worshipping.  Acting like a pharisee is probably not going to make God happy.

[wisconsin person]

um, i think it says in the bible somewhere in psalms, i think it's 101 or 105. and that chapter talks about praise and worship.   8-)