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Vlad!
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« on: September 02, 2004, 04:59:16 PM » |
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I've been meaning to post this for a while but haven't:
Does ANYONE understand 2 Samuel 24? Doesn't it seem like David is following the Lord's commands and both he and Israel get screwed for it?
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2004, 05:03:48 PM » |
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Hmmmm... I get the impression that, for some reason, the Almighty DOESN'T want David taking a census, so he and the Hebrews deserve the screwing that they receive for going against God's commands.
What's so bad about counting your people's population, though, I couldn't tell you.
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enemy anemone
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2004, 05:22:18 PM » |
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I remember being taught that the reason (or a possible reason) God didn't want a census taken had to do with the king putting his trust in the number of able-bodied men in his country rather than in the Lord.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2004, 05:24:35 PM » |
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2 Samuel 24:1: Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."
My Bible notes that in 1 Chron 21:1 a parallel account has Satan inciting David to take a census. That makes a little more sense, but then why does the 2 Sam account say it was the Lord? And what is up with taking a census? Is it some sort of innuendo? Like you walk up to someone in a bar and say "hey, let's say you and me go upstairs and take a census"? I mean, what?
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2004, 05:27:21 PM » |
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Hmmm... a clear example of God changing the heart of a man... gee, if I didn't know any better, I'd think that went right along with Calvinistic theology...
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Vlad!
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2004, 05:34:35 PM » |
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Hmmm... a clear example of God changing the heart of a man... gee, if I didn't know any better, I'd think that went right along with Calvinistic theology... Well, first off, I wouldn't count that as a triumph. If it truly is God who changed David's heart, this is perhaps the most arbitrary and inconsistent act of God in the entire Bible. And second, it says "God said to David." This doesn't appear to be a situation of God forcing a man's heart to change as much as God telling a man to do something and him obeying. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2004, 05:41:51 PM » |
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If it truly is God who changed David's heart, this is perhaps the most arbitrary and inconsistent act of God in the entire Bible. Well, God is neither arbitrary nor inconsistent, so that's out. And there are other instances of God changing the hearts of men, so calling it inconsistent just flat-out doesn't work. And second, it says "God said to David." This doesn't appear to be a situation of God forcing a man's heart to change as much as God telling a man to do something and him obeying. The language here seems a little ambiguous to me. It says that God's anger burned, and He incited David against them, which seems to suggest more than shady diplomacy to me, but I'm not sure if you could really go one way or the other with absolute certainty. |
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enemy anemone
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« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2004, 05:46:20 PM » |
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I had looked up the passage by going to google and pulled up the KJV version first.
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
going by this, it seems that God influenced David's heart to do this, perhaps like he hardened Pharoah's heart.
I haven't looked up the Chronicles passage but that's interesting that it says Satan (oops, typed Stan at first) was behind it. makes me think about Job, how the Lord allowed Satan to test him.
*shrug* I don't know. I do think that our theology should conform to the Bible and not the other way around, Calvinism or no Calvinism.
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Josh
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« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2004, 06:15:30 PM » |
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And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
Indeed, this gives the impression that God did indeed change David's heart. *shrug* I don't know. I do think that our theology should conform to the Bible and not the other way around, Calvinism or no Calvinism. Good words, Schil. |
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Aaron
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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2004, 06:46:25 PM » |
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I'm quoting my answer from the NRSV Harper's Study Bible.
"This text says that God incited David against the Israelites. 1 Chronicles 21:1 says that Satan incited David take his census. Both are true: God was the ultimate cause, Satan the proximate one. We don't know why God was angry w/ David and allowed Satan as the secondary agent to cause David to number the people. David did not consult w/God before he gave the order nor was there any pressing need to count heads. Yet good was to come out of this evil, for the land David bought from Araunah was later to become the site on which the temple was built."
He discusses how people who act without consulting with God often make mistakes that could have been avoided. Even though David did "screw" himself over, as you put it Vlad!, David did finally make the altar and made the sacrifice to God, and then God removed the plague. Harper: "This points forward to Christ as our altar, our sacrifice. Through him alone we find favor with God, and God removes the punishment of sin from us."
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Vlad!
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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2004, 06:46:44 PM » |
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"Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. " That's 1 Chron 21:1 in NIV. Moving from the assumption that both of these history books are the absolute truth, this would suggest that the Lord was angry with Israel and either told Satan to do this to David or allowed it to take place. Thus, the change in David's heart came about due to the promptings of Satan and not the Lord. Well, God is neither arbitrary nor inconsistent, so that's out. And there are other instances of God changing the hearts of men, so calling it inconsistent just flat-out doesn't work.
What I meant was, if God changed David's heart to cause him to take a census of Israel and then sent a plague on Israel because David did what God made him do, that would be inconsistent. The reason for my puzzlement is because it also seems inconsistent even if God just told David to do it. So logic agrees with the infallability assumption: it was probably Satan. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Aaron
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2004, 06:58:48 PM » |
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God didn't directly tell David to do the census. God allowed Satan to convince David to do it. Censuses weren't against the rules, but Harper states that "since the previous ones were mandated by God, it appears that David would have been well advised to consult God before he ordered the census." Well, he didn't consult God so essentially he disobeyed the historical rules of the census. That's why God was upset with David
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dgp11776
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« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2004, 08:11:43 AM » |
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Good answers, Aaron.
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Aaron
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« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2004, 08:31:31 AM » |
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Good answers, Aaron. thanks..maybe this will motivate me to study the Bible more and be diligent. It's the biggest struggle in my walk. |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2004, 11:39:06 AM » |
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Ok, one more question and some possible implications:
Why did Joab think that it was a bad idea to do the census? Throughout the books where he is in, he seems to trust almost totally in the strength of man. When David died, he told Solomon to murder Joab because of the times that Joab murdered others, often against the king's wishes. So it seems that Joab would be the last person to object to the census. It just seems like there's more going on behind the scenes than we will ever know about in this life.
Now for some possible implications of this chapter. I welcome comments and discussion, as always:
* A literal reading of the Bible can get you in trouble. The Bible clearly suggests that the Lord incited David to do what he then punished David for. I don't know why the Samuel account says it the way it does, but sometimes a literal interpretation creates contradiction and is almost opposote the true meaning of the verse.
* We have a choice. Regardless of whether we can choose our eternal destiny or not, it seems self-evident that God would not have punished the Israelites if he knew that David had no choice but to do what he did. David was presented with a choice and took the wrong one. He was even given an opportunity to change his mind when Joab questioned his judgement, and he still went down the wrong path.
* A whole nation suffers over the sins of its ruler. It seems highly unfair that others were killed by the plague and David was spared. David himself seems to think so too: in verse 17, it says "When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord , 'I am the one who has sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall upon me and my family.'"
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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