opposition

[ash]

What do you thinker's think about...

in the church:
1. Some people think opposition in the church can mean the church is doing something right.

2. Some people think opposition in the church means the church leadership is having trouble (is unqualified and unable to do the job well).


in general:
1. Some people think opposition means something good is about to happen, like the walls holding something back will soon fall.

2. Some people think they know God's will because things will "work out" so they can go to a certain college, lead a certain group... but if satan rules the earth, can't he make things "work out" too?

3. Some people think opposition means you better back down (stop what you are doing) because you aren't doing God's will...


Thoughts? What does scripture say?

[bethany]

What do you mean by opposition? Disagreement? Persecution? Who is being opposed by whom? Pastors by congregants? Church members by elders?

[ash]

all you mentioned, but persecution. Though, persecution could even be in the mix too if a pastor is being opposed by its congregants actively and such... basically, just choose something you know the most about, i suppose.

[bethany]

Well, it totally depends on the people and circumstances and issues involved, imo.

[Vlad!]

Some disagreement is good, because otherwise the congregation will become complacent and unable to defend their beliefs. On the other hand, too much is bad because nobody wants a fellowship that is in constant strife.

Other than that, bethany is right: it would really depend on the situation.

[ash]

alright, probably the one i really want to know about is...

Some people think they know God's will because things will "work out" so they can go to a certain college, lead a certain group... but if satan rules the earth, can't he make things "work out" too?

I've wrestled with this for about 6 months...so let me make something up completely. Lets say that Mary "feels called" by God to go to Harvard. initially things work out incredibly well-like it's gotta be God that she is able to go there. So she goes. Once at harvard, Mary hits a lot of hurdles and rough circumstances (opposition) and starts to think that maybe God didn't want her there afterall. Was it God who sent Mary there or was it the devil who tricked her into thinking it was God's will? Is God testing Mary at Harvard or is it the devil trying to take her down?  

[Vlad!]

I am inclined to believe that God neither paved the way for Mary to attend Harvard nor threw difficulties in her path. The Bible certainly provides examples both of God leading someone someplace and of him blocking people from certain things, but these are generally major events that are both in God's and man's interests. For our own life events, I think you generally pave your own way and make your own breaks.

Many people, including my brother, would answer differently. I think the stock answer is a pat on the back and a reminder that suffering and persecution brings about rewards.

As for the devil making it appear that Mary should go to Harvard when really God wanted her to go somewhere else, well, I just don't see it. If God is greater than the devil and Mary is seeking God's will in which college she chooses, it seems that a loving God would at least counteract the machinations of the enemy until the path is once again neutral and up to you (if nothing else).

Speaking to your example, though, even if you are in exactly the place God 'wants' you, life isn't going to be a rose garden. God never said "I'm going to make everything easy for you." If you try to join a college or lead a group and you hit some rocky ground, that does NOT mean that you are not in God's will or that you should bail out. The Bible's wisdom is as much common sense as anything else: if you tough it out, it will improve your character. I'm not saying that you shouldn't transfer out of a college that doesn't meet your needs or stick with a group that just isn't working, but no matter where you are you're going to have some times when you wonder if it's all worth it. If it's a college, it will sometimes feel miserable when deadlines are looming and work is piling up (believe me, I know), but by meeting those deadlines and completing the work, or at least giving it your best and learning how to do better next time, you will be gaining valuable life skills. If you're leading a group and the members don't seem to like you and won't do what you want and you don't think it's working out, maybe the group is dysfunctional...but maybe it means that you haven't acquired leadership skills yet, or that your personality isn't right for leading this group. God isn't going to wave a hand and make that go away...if He did, Christians would be the wussiest people on the planet. They wouldn't be able to handle anything. It's only when you're in above your head that you learn how to swim.

EDIT: Wow, reading over that it's a really long rant. Sorry about going off on you there

[Guest]

I actually experienced a situation almost identical to the one you're describing. But I don't think it was a case of either God clearly making me go there, or making things really hard for me once I was there. Nor do I ascribe any of it to Satan. I think it's just how things were. I made the decisions, prayerfully, and in hindsight, I can definitely see God's hand at work and how he has used the experiences in my life to shape me and draw me to Him. My life is obviously completely different now than it would be if I'd stayed at that college.  I don't feel that at any point in the process I was defying what God wanted for me, or that I was being trickd into being at the wrong place. I think that God was just as pleased with my decision to go to school at this place as he was with my decision to leave it. That seems contradictory, but He taught me a lot through the process. Maybe the process of going and leaving was the whole point; maybe that was the only way He could teach me certain things. Who knows? You can go crazy trying to guess God's intentions, because guess what: We'll never understand them. We can't; we're too small and He is infinite.

So, I think it's not a great idea to get hung up on these things while you're making decisions, worrying that Satan or God is trying to coerce you into something. If you're prayerfully seeking God's will, and then you make a choice, then that's all you can do.  

[-Bethany-]

Oops - that was me.  

[ash]

Vlad-I'm the biggest wuss ever. I was "leading a group" and quit because I felt that leaving was the best option I had that could benefit the team. It was a risky decision (risky to the point where those that know the situation deem it a decision only a revolutionary could make), but now I have no choice but simply trust God and rest in him.

if you tough it out, it will improve your character.

That must be true, but to what extent should one "tough it out"? Should someone stop fighting if it's hurting someone else? Even though it may be helping an entire team, and impacting the way a few hundred view the christian life? Is it worth burning a bridge with that one person? Because that one person speaks their story to others and therefore that one person's opinion and view on the situation will be heard over mine b/c I hate talking negatively about others. I don't want my words to bring death; I want them to bring life.

Bethany-I sure hope you're right. I think you are.

I made the decisions, prayerfully, and in hindsight, I can definitely see God's hand at work and how he has used the experiences in my life to shape me and draw me to Him.

Looking back, I wish I was more prayerful during those really tough times in the last few weeks. When you were making the decision to leave that college, where you tempted even more than usual to believe the lies of the enemy? Like, were you ever starting to doubt key truths in scripture (like who Jesus was and is, what the cross means...)? Or, if not, how do you define that time? Was it normal?

Thanks.



 

[bethany]

Ash, no, I never felt like I was more tempted to believe Satan's lies then. I was more really numb than anything... I was only there for two weeks, and I know that actual depression is usually a medical condition that lasts months, but I was basically just really depressed, exhibiting the following symptoms from a list of depression symptoms I just looked up

#
You feel miserable and sad.
#
You feel exhausted a lot of the time with no energy .
#
You feel as if even the smallest tasks are sometimes impossible.
#
You seldom enjoy the things that you used to enjoy-you may be off  food

You feel very anxious sometimes.
#
You don't want to see people or are scared to be left alone. Social activity may feel hard or impossible.
#
You find it difficult to think clearly.
#
You feel like a failure and/or feel guilty a lot of the time.
#
You feel a burden to others.
#
You sometimes feel that life isn't worth living.
#
You feel like sleeping all the time

etc. So, basically, I was just pretty out of it. I never questioned the truths of the Gospel, but I did do a lot of the "why is this happening? This was supposed to be a good thing" type of thinking going on.  But it definitely grew me up, because I had to take responsibility for my actions...I was the only one who could make the decision and then the consequences of it. Definitely a key point in my life, even if I didn't like it much at the time.  

[Vlad!]

Depression is a result of something, well, depressing happening. It's a medical condition when it happens due to a chemical imbalance (making you feel depressed all the time) rather than some stimulus from the outside. I only say this because much of our culture is 'drug-happy'...feel sad? Pop a pill. Headache? Pop a pill. Hyper kids? Give them pills. Feeling fat? Pop a pill.

Back on topic a bit, I have found that the gospel tends to be misrepresented, especially in sunday-school arenas where everything gets sugar coated for the kids. One common misconception (and here is where I tie it all together...wait for it...) is that God is the Christian pill. If something isn't going right, maybe you're not getting your Recommended Daily Allowance of God. Just get to know God, and it'll all be gravy. When you experience hardship like this, you should question what you're told. This should happen whenever your experiences contradict what you thought was true. If you think X about God, or faith, or whatever, and Y consistently happens, the natural (for most people, at least) reaction is to rationalize it away or blame oneself. "Oh, this college experience would be going better if I didn't sleep through my quiet time last Saturday." Maybe instead you should question "what have I been told--what do I believe--that contradicts my experiences? Could this be wrong?"

[bethany]

Was that addressed to me? The "you" you speak of is unclear.  

[Vlad!]

Was that addressed to me? The "you" you speak of is unclear.

No, it was the generic you. Sorry if you thought it was a diatribe against you personally It was just me going into mega-rant mode again

[ash]

Well, ahh! Someone told me being a christian was easy... liar liar pants on fire.

But i suppose my questions have been or will be answered... in time... i guess, i hope.  

[danny316]

Well, ahh! Someone told me being a christian was easy... liar liar pants on fire.

Hence what one of my biggest problems with CCM, and the church today is.

I've always thought that opposition isn't necessarily good or bad, but it's something that can be used for both. I've never been a fan of reading into things, unless it implies that someone is out to get me.

You asked for scripture - would this be a good place to mention the part about how people sharpen each other like iron does?

As far as scripture on the part i'm quoting, there's Jesus saying that his "burden is light" and also that, as Christians, we have to take up our cross and follow Him. I suppose "light" is subjective in this case....

Hmm, reading over more i see that Vlad!'s already made most of the rant-points i would. *lets everyone else say the good points*

[ash]

I went to a conference today and they talked about this...

They said it is the lie of the devil to believe that a Christian won't receive opposition. In fact, one should know that they are/will be under much more attack as they press into God more and more... hehe... I love that...

So, now I can't wait to see what'll happen as I press into God more and more and rely on Him more and more... as long as my foundation is right, and I honestly pursue him, I should have nothing to fear. Because in Christ I am unshakable... right? Many hard things should come my way... I'm not saying I'm going to go out and intentionally sin so I can add that on my list of things I've overcome (heh), I'm saying things will come my way...opposition... because the devil sees me as a threat... does that make any sense?