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Vlad!
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« on: September 26, 2004, 12:03:32 AM » |
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I was talking to my roommate's mom (an English teacher, for heaven's sakes) about Christ figures in literature and movies, and she said "I don't like them. I think it's blasphemous." I tried to explain to her that it was an allusion based on common heritage (i.e. Christian) and that it wasn't blasphemy but could even be a sign of respect for Christ's sacrifice. She disagreed. I had never encountered this attitude before, so I was wondering what you pholk think: are Christ figures in literature blasphemous, honoring to Christ, or just another literary device?
In case you're a bit foggy on the notion, some literary figures that many consider to be Christ figures are:
Simon (Lord of the Flies)
Santiago/Old Man (The Old Man and the Sea)
Gandalf (The Lord of the Rings)
In addition, Lewis' Aslan is sort of an allegorical Christ but can be considered a Christ figure.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Aaron
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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2004, 01:08:40 AM » |
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She doesn't sound like she has good reasoning about it.
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bloop
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« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2004, 06:50:14 AM » |
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I'm all for it, so long as we're talking about a morally upstanding Christ figure. You know, I would probably be somewhat offended by some greasy fascist Christ-ish character.
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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enemy anemone
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2004, 02:33:22 AM » |
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I enjoy finding Christ figures in literature (and movies). and I would have thought they are enough of a literary device that the English teacher would not be so...I don't know what...about the whole thing.
I think that Christ figures (intentional or unintentional) not only refer to our common, Christian heritage, but also to something we humans innately need/want/look for.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2004, 09:50:06 AM » |
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Yes, that's a good point. I suppose an author could insert a story that somewhat mirrors Christs because he or she thinks "this is an incredible story," perhaps without even considering the Christ aspect of it.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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danny316
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2004, 06:48:08 PM » |
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I really don't understand why non-Christians use any biblical imagery at all. I just can't figure that one out.
I suppose i don't really have a good reason for it, but i found the "Christ-figure" in Simon (From Lord of the Flies) to be offensive. It just didn't feel like it fit the book or Jesus to me. It seems more like a bunch of dumb kids playing human sacrifice because they don't know any better. I was a little surprised to hear him compared to Christ because of the way he died but not really seeing the complete character there - How did Simon live? Did his death serve any purpose?
I'm liking Aslan in the Narnia series though, so this is probably (at least partially) my personal bias leaking through.
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Someday, Dan will make a site with nothing but pictures of amusing stolen avatars.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2004, 08:41:13 PM » |
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The other kids on the island were moral when it suited them and abandoned morality when that served their purposes better. Simon was moral because (at least, so I interpreted) he believed that morality was worth something in its own right beyond just how it serves your own ends. Just because he was sacrificed doesn't mean that he was/is a Christ figure, but his character seems to portray that.
As for non-Christians using Biblical allusions, it is not uncommon for writers to allude to mythology, especially Greek/Roman. This doesn't mean that they believe Zeus and co. actually existed, it's just an allusion to a shared tradition (in this case the classical/renaissance period).
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2004, 08:43:43 PM » |
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As for non-Christians using Biblical allusions, it is not uncommon for writers to allude to mythology, especially Greek/Roman. This doesn't mean that they believe Zeus and co. actually existed, it's just an allusion to a shared tradition (in this case the classical/renaissance period). Yeah, Christian imagery has so much cultural and historical significance that using it automatically lends metaphorical weight to one's story, regardless of what one believes about Christ and His teachings. |
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danny316
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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2004, 09:00:05 PM » |
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Yeah, Christian imagery has so much cultural and historical significance that using it automatically lends metaphorical weight to one's story, regardless of what one believes about Christ and His teachings. I suppose that that's one way of looking at it. It'd be interesting to see how authors research religious themes that they allude to - what if they tried to allude to Christ and wound up saying something grossly off? Or replace Christ with any character in any other belief system....I'm sure that'd offend people. I still can't say that I really "get it" though. |
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Someday, Dan will make a site with nothing but pictures of amusing stolen avatars.
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Josh
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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2004, 09:03:38 PM » |
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What don't you get?
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danny316
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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2004, 09:07:22 PM » |
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What don't you get? Why people use Christ figures in literature when their literature really doesn't have anything to do with Him. |
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Someday, Dan will make a site with nothing but pictures of amusing stolen avatars.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2004, 09:10:00 PM » |
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Well, a 'Christ figure' doesn't necessarily represent all of Christ, just a facet. Gandalf, for instance, came back to life but did not save the world...that was Frodo. Simon was sacrificed but did not come back to life.
Sometimes the Christ-character is altered a bit (like in Donnie Darko) or so unlike Christ in other ways that one shudders to call him or her a Christ figure (like Neo in The Matrix). I assume this is what you are referring to.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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danny316
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2004, 09:31:06 PM » |
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Well, a 'Christ figure' doesn't necessarily represent all of Christ, just a facet. Gandalf, for instance, came back to life but did not save the world...that was Frodo. Simon was sacrificed but did not come back to life.
Sometimes the Christ-character is altered a bit (like in Donnie Darko) or so unlike Christ in other ways that one shudders to call him or her a Christ figure (like Neo in The Matrix). I assume this is what you are referring to. I suppose. I wasn't really referring to anything in particular, I'm just saying that in general, I don't understand why people would use imagery from a school of thought that they don't subscribe to. Anyway, i suppose it's a moo point, like a cow's opinion. |
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Someday, Dan will make a site with nothing but pictures of amusing stolen avatars.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2004, 10:01:44 PM » |
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Well, I meant that that's the type of thing you were probably referring to, not the specific instances.
This may be one of those things that you just don't get, though it seems fairly obvious to me. I (as a Christian) have no real problem with alluding to things I don't particularly believe in (Greek, Roman, Norse, or Egyptian mythology, famous epics like the Illiad, the Oddysey, the Epic of Gilgamesh, and even popular fiction such as Sherlock Holmes, Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos, and others) if I feel that the allusion will bolster my point and be understood by my target audience. This is because I'm not acknowledging them as true by referencing them, I'm just acknowledging that I'm familiar with them. To an atheist, Christ was a historical figure or perhaps a mostly fictitious character. The allusion is (in the eyes of said atheist) just as fictious as when I reference Lovecraft or when Milton in Paradise Lost addresses a Muse.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Wildcatblue7
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2004, 09:11:25 AM » |
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I like allegory.
Aslan is my favorite.
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