Does God take risks?

[standman87]

Same with Calvinism - the un-elect live to die.

Yes. God says this in Romans when He tells us that certain people were dreated simply to eventually be destoryed! God doesn't love these people as He loves His children.

Well then mass suicide should be endorsed. Get away from your awful earth situation and find out if God picked you or not.

My list of Calvinistic sayings (please tell me I'm completely wrong):

"Don't worry buddy, it isn't your fault. God just didn't pick you."

"You must be a Christian because God picked you - so there!"

"Don't read the Word. You will find out soon enough if you were picked."

"Why explore your faith? God does everything for you. He even makes your hardest choices for you."

"No need to pray - you weren't chosen."

"Don't go to church. Do what you want with your time - God already has your eternity planned for you."

"You don't have a purpose. You are just to spend your life hoping the Almighty decides to write your name in the Book of Life."

 

[Josh]

Obviously, you haven't actually listened to a thing I've said about my beliefs, and mocking them isn't exactly the most mature way to approach me about it. So I'm not going to dignify that last post with a reply.

 

[bloop]

Yeah, those little ribbings were hardly fair to the Calvinist viewpoint, and only a couple were mildly funny.  I disagree with Calvinism, but I can recognize when they are being misrepresented.

[Vlad!]

My list of Calvinistic sayings (please tell me I'm completely wrong):

You're completely wrong.

[standman87]

Obviously, you haven't actually listened to a thing I've said about my beliefs, and mocking them isn't exactly the most mature way to approach me about it. So I'm not going to dignify that last post with a reply.

This is not mocking you. This is the 'general public' idea of Calvinism. I'm sorry, but I wasn't into the phorum when you had you big dicussion. These quotes are some of the worries of non-Calvinists. Reading them over, I think they were too blunt - but if you really want to explain Calvinism to me  (and I'd like to know / need to know, as you can see my ignorance) you could start by tearing down the general idea of Calvinism. I'm sorry if I was disrespectful but I was venting my frustration because it just doesn't make sense how you can say some of our friends are just predestined to feel agony for eternity (almost to the point of a little sinful anger). My post might have been immature, but the most immature thing to do is say, "You are wrong so I'm not speaking." If I am completely wrong, tell me the truth then you can just ignore my dumb responses.

     no hard feelings? I'd really hate to allienate a friend(s) by some late night post I made. Yes, Stanton is a frustrated fool. Say that over and over again then stab a picture of me and respond kind-heartedly =D .
 

[Josh]

Eh, sorry for jumping all over you, Stanton. I guess I just misunderstood the purpose of that post. I'll tear down those misconceptions very, very soon... but not right now. Tomorrow. My brain is fried tonight... sorry.    

[standman87]

Eh, sorry for jumping all over you, Stanton. I guess I just misunderstood the purpose of that post. I'll tear down those misconceptions very, very soon... but not right now. Tomorrow. My brain is fried tonight... sorry.  

well feel free to start on new topic titled 'The Destruction of Stanton's Ignorance of Calvinism' =) . Yeah take your time cuz I spewed out a lot of gunk from my wacko mind but I think that is what most non-Calvinistic Christians are thinking but not willing to idiotically say .  

[Josh]

Sorry for neglecting this for so long, Stanton. Here are some quick-draw replies:

My list of Calvinistic sayings (please tell me I'm completely wrong):

"Don't worry buddy, it isn't your fault. God just didn't pick you."

I'm not sure that I totally understand this one. Are you addressing an unrepentant sinner who is going to hell? If so, then you make it sound as if he DESERVES to be chosen to go to heaven. Which he doesn't. None of us do.

Like I said, I'm not sure I understand what you meant with that one.

"You must be a Christian because God picked you - so there!"

Hmmm... not sure about this one, either. Are you saying that everyone who God chose WILL become a Christian, PERIOD? Because that's very true. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that all of the elect will be saved.

"Don't read the Word. You will find out soon enough if you were picked."

The point of reading God's Word is not to find out whether or not "you were picked."

"Why explore your faith? God does everything for you. He even makes your hardest choices for you."

Not entirely so. I don't think God makes all our desicions for us. There are still matters of personal responsibility. And, if you are one of the elect, you will WANT to explore your faith.

"No need to pray - you weren't chosen."

Well, if you weren't chosen, then you don't have faith (God only gives faith to the elect), so why would such a person even want to pray?

"Don't go to church. Do what you want with your time - God already has your eternity planned for you."

Sounds like works-based salvation to me. Going to church doesn't determine our eternal destination, does it?

"You don't have a purpose. You are just to spend your life hoping the Almighty decides to write your name in the Book of Life."

If you hope that you are chosen, then, chances are, you WERE chosen... only the elect, after all, desire Christ.

Hope that clears things up a bit.
 

[standman87]

...
(3rd quote) The point of reading God's Word is not to find out whether or not "you were picked."
...
(4th quote) Not entirely so. I don't think God makes all our desicions for us. There are still matters of personal responsibility. And, if you are one of the elect, you will WANT to explore your faith.
...
(7th quote) If you hope that you are chosen, then, chances are, you WERE chosen... only the elect, after all, desire Christ.

The 1st quote: How do you comfort the unelect? What are the unelect to do with their lives?

The 2nd quote: If someone does not want to be in God's elect, he is forced to?

The 3rd quote: What is the Calvinist's reason for reading God's Word?

The 4th quote: Why do you need personal responsibility when God is making the only decision that matters? Why would an 'elect' want to explore his faith when he does not need to realize anything?

The 5th quote: Excellent point. But why do the elect need to pray when all is taken care of?

The 6th quote: I was not inferring that church attendance equaled salvation. I was reitterating - what is the point of exploring a faith that is predeterminded (predestined)?

The 7th quote: Your response seems to indicate that our thoughts/feelings/hopes take part in God's decision upon our salvation. Are you saying that a Calvinist believes his purpose in life is just to hope - nothing more?

Seperate note: Did you read the AP US History book' s segment on Calvinism? It is quite harsh but gives the opinion of the general public view of Calvinism. You should read the excerpt.





 

[Josh]

The 1st quote: How do you comfort the unelect? What are the unelect to do with their lives?

The unelect don't really want comfort. Remember, they don't desire Christ or salvation.

The 2nd quote: If someone does not want to be in God's elect, he is forced to?

Generally, if not always, those who are elect will want to be elect. God gives them this desire.

The 3rd quote: What is the Calvinist's reason for reading God's Word?

Every time you read God's Word, God is speaking to you. So reading God's word is useful for a lot of things- worship, seeking God's will, learning about His ways, etc.

The 4th quote: Why do you need personal responsibility when God is making the only decision that matters? Why would an 'elect' want to explore his faith when he does not need to realize anything?

The only decision that matters? Hmmm... not sure if I'd go THAT far...

The 5th quote: Excellent point. But why do the elect need to pray when all is taken care of?

Actually, this is a terrific question. I've been thinking about it a lot lately, and I'm not totally sure what to say about it. A few thoughts:

1. Because God commands us to, if nothing else.
2. Praying helps conform our wills to God's will.
3. God uses our prayers as His tools for accomplishing things. He doesn't NEED us to pray, but He likes us to.

The 7th quote: Your response seems to indicate that our thoughts/feelings/hopes take part in God's decision upon our salvation. Are you saying that a Calvinist believes his purpose in life is just to hope - nothing more?

No, I was really just trying to reitterate that only the elect desire salvation. In other words, God doesn't reject anyone who asks for salvation- it's just that only the elect ask. Because only the elect CAN ask.

[standman87]

I'm starting to grasp a percentage of your doctrine. But now I want to focus on your reaction to it. How does your doctrine make you act differently than I do?

[Josh]

I'm starting to grasp a percentage of your doctrine. But now I want to focus on your reaction to it. How does your doctrine make you act differently than I do?

Now THAT's a great question. Give me some time to think that one over... this is a pretty important topic, so I don't want to be too hasty in my responses.

[BigBird]

The 1st quote: How do you comfort the unelect? What are the unelect to do with their lives?

I think it's very important to understand that we have no idea who the unelect are. Someone could seem unelect until the minute of their death...

Some may reject Christ time and time again, but that doesn't mean give up on them and move on, pray for them and pursue them I say.

[Josh]

I think it's very important to understand that we have no idea who the unelect are. Someone could seem unelect until the minute of their death...

Some may reject Christ time and time again, but that doesn't mean give up on them and move on, pray for them and pursue them I say.

Yes! Excellent point, David.

[Vlad!]

Some may reject Christ time and time again, but that doesn't mean give up on them and move on, pray for them and pursue them I say.

Why pursue them? They're going to heaven either way.

I don't see how predestinationists can keep from being horrible fatalists.

[Josh]

Why pursue them? They're going to heaven either way.

Seems like we've been over this before...

"The Spirit moves in mysterious ways," sang Bono on Achtung Baby, and I can't help but find that lyric apropos to this topic. The fact is, sometimes God chooses to bring people to Him by using human beings as tools. That's why we're called to be witnesses to the lost. Can God save these people without our help? Of course. But, for some reason, He often chooses to do His good work by using us.

Think of a skilled carpenter with many, many tools at his disposal. Now, if he misplaces one tool, does that mean that he can no longer finish his work? Not at all. He's got plenty of other methods he can use to accomplish his work. But why question his decision to use Tool X? That's just the way he does things, in his wisdom, and had he chosen to use Tool Y, there would surely be just as many people questioning that strategy.

I hope that made at least some degree of sense...

 

[Vlad!]

Seems like we've been over this before...

I think we have, but I don't think I've ever gotten a satisfactory answer. You see, I'm not questioning the need to evangelize. As a believer in free will, I think evangelism is necessary and am thrilled that God uses us as His method of spreading the word. But if person X is going to heaven regardless of what he believes and regardless of whether he's even heard the word of God, why not stay at home?

Think of a skilled carpenter with many, many tools at his disposal. Now, if he misplaces one tool, does that mean that he can no longer finish his work? Not at all. He's got plenty of other methods he can use to accomplish his work. But why question his decision to use Tool X? That's just the way he does things, in his wisdom, and had he chosen to use Tool Y, there would surely be just as many people questioning that strategy.

I like this analogy, but the fact is that predestination doesn't have us being used as God's tools--we can do the work, or we can decide not to, and it will happen either way. You claim that humans cannot thwart God's plans. Fine, then, just catch the next episode of whatever on TV or go visit the gym--you're not thwarting God's plan, because the person you were going to evangelize is already going to heaven (or not) regardless.

I'm not trying to mock Calvinism, but if this is an ignorant question then it's because I'm still fairly ignorant about the nuances of your belief.

[-Imladris-]

Calvinism just  sounds to me like circular reasoning. Why are they the Elect? Because they desire salvation. Why do they desire it? Well, because God chose them, of course. So why did God choose them? Because they're the Elect!  =D  

[Josh]

You claim that humans cannot thwart God's plans. Fine, then, just catch the next episode of whatever on TV or go visit the gym--you're not thwarting God's plan, because the person you were going to evangelize is already going to heaven (or not) regardless.

Makes sense but for one thing: What is God's plan is for you to go out and evangelize? God's plan doesn't stop at saying, "Bob will be saved." God's plan goes farther, saying, "Bob will be saved by means of Bill witnessing to him." So the idea of not thwarting God's plan kind of holds this together.

Why are they the Elect? Because they desire salvation.

No. That's not what I believe, anyway. They desire salvation because they were chosen, not the other way around.

[Vlad!]

Makes sense but for one thing: What is God's plan is for you to go out and evangelize? God's plan doesn't stop at saying, "Bob will be saved." God's plan goes farther, saying, "Bob will be saved by means of Bill witnessing to him." So the idea of not thwarting God's plan kind of holds this together.

But what if Bill refuses to evangelize? Will Bob not get to heaven, or will God force Bill to evangelize Bob? Or will Bob be created with the desire to evangelize so he is psychologically incapable of refusing to do so?

[BigBird]

But what if Bill refuses to evangelize? Will Bob not get to heaven, or will God force Bill to evangelize Bob? Or will Bob be created with the desire to evangelize so he is psychologically incapable of refusing to do so?

I think God would force Bill to evangelize Bob, or He could choose someone else to do the task...

[Josh]

A couple of random discussion questions for those on the free-will side:

1. When debating this topic with Mark, the concept of God changing His mind came up frequently. How do you think this idea relates to the topic at hand? That is, why is it important to Calvinism/free will to discuss whether or not God changes His mind? And... does He?

2. How do you explain the mentions throughout Scripture of God "directing" people's hearts? The one I'm thinking of is in Proverbs where we are told that He directs the hearts of kings, and that He turns them whichever way pleases Him.

[standman87]

1. When debating this topic with Mark, the concept of God changing His mind came up frequently. How do you think this idea relates to the topic at hand? That is, why is it important to Calvinism/free will to discuss whether or not God changes His mind? And... does He?

2. How do you explain the mentions throughout Scripture of God "directing" people's hearts? The one I'm thinking of is in Proverbs where we are told that He directs the hearts of kings, and that He turns them whichever way pleases Him.

1) Time is irrelevant to God, so it is impossible to answer your question with human logic.

2) God promise's guidance if we wish to have some. The 'ask and you shall receive' concept is used to answer your question. Now when it comes to God's authority, He controls all things. This includes everything within our human minds to grasp, and yet He uses His control unusually (according to human standards). Most humans with absolute power would make all decisions themselves, but God decides to let humanity control its path to some degree (This degree is what the predestination and free will debate consists of. Those who believe in predestination say that humans have no choice when it comes to salvation, but those of free will believe humans make the final decision on whether to accept Jesus's promise of grace). So, in my opinion, God directs the hearts of kings by letting them turn as they please - for that is the way that pleases Him.

[Vlad!]

1. When debating this topic with Mark, the concept of God changing His mind came up frequently. How do you think this idea relates to the topic at hand? That is, why is it important to Calvinism/free will to discuss whether or not God changes His mind? And... does He?

I think God can change His mind, though (like most things divine) we don't necessarily understand what's going on. Rather than making Him seem capricious or random, though, I think it evidences His own emotion and His ability to relate to us and to the world in a manner relevant to the current times.

2. How do you explain the mentions throughout Scripture of God "directing" people's hearts? The one I'm thinking of is in Proverbs where we are told that He directs the hearts of kings, and that He turns them whichever way pleases Him.

As a band member, you are familiar with the concept of a director. He's a guy waving a stick who tells all the players how best to play their music. You also know that not every member of the band follows the director's guidance. I think that when the Bible says 'direct' here, it is speaking of God more like a music director trying to tell his players how bets to perform the music, not like a jockey pulling and tugging on the reigns and forcing the horse to go where he wants.


I have a couple questions of my own:
1. Did God force Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? If not, it seems that they had a choice in their own eternal fate as well as that of their decendants--something that predestinationists reject. But if so, doesn't it seem unusually cruel that God would regard all humans as sinful due to an act that He Himself forced on humanity?

2. It is true that God in a sense controls our actions merely by choosing not to influence them, given that He could. But how often does He control us? Do you believe that a person could go his whole life and the only thing God directly controls is his salvation?

3. Does God ever force the elect to do evil?

[Josh]

I think God can change His mind,

Not according to 1 Samuel 15:29.

As a band member, you are familiar with the concept of a director. He's a guy waving a stick who tells all the players how best to play their music. You also know that not every member of the band follows the director's guidance. I think that when the Bible says 'direct' here, it is speaking of God more like a music director trying to tell his players how bets to perform the music, not like a jockey pulling and tugging on the reigns and forcing the horse to go where he wants.

Actually, that sounds reasonable.

1. Did God force Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

When faced with a choice between right and wrong, humans will ALWAYS pick the sinful option, 100% of the time, unless God intervenes. The Bible tells us this frequently; we are, after all, slaves to the sinful nature. So God didn't "force" them to do anything; however, He did choose not to intervene, which means that there is no way they would have acted differently than they did. It goes back to that concept of free agency.

2. It is true that God in a sense controls our actions merely by choosing not to influence them, given that He could. But how often does He control us? Do you believe that a person could go his whole life and the only thing God directly controls is his salvation?

That's an interesting question. And this is probably a good time to explain what I mean when I say God controls our hearts during the act of salvation.

God doesn't drag people to Him kicking and screaming. The elect CHOOSE God. But they choose Him because He gives them the faith and the desire to do so. My former pastor once said that He loves us into loving Him, and that seems like a pretty good way of explaining it.

So can we live our lives without being controlled by God in the way a puppeteer controls his puppets? Yes, I think so, though that doesn't really mean we have a "choice" in everything, either.

3. Does God ever force the elect to do evil?

See my Adam and Eve answer.

 

[leinad]

When faced with a choice between right and wrong, humans will ALWAYS pick the sinful option, 100% of the time, unless God intervenes. The Bible tells us this frequently; we are, after all, slaves to the sinful nature. So God didn't "force" them to do anything; however, He did choose not to intervene, which means that there is no way they would have acted differently than they did. It goes back to that concept of free agency.

If that's the case, doesn't that mean God created Adam and Eve with a sinful nature?  So then original sin was already present before the Fall?  My understanding was that, unlike humans after the Fall, Adam and Eve had a true choice whether to sin or not.

From what I've read, the issue of whether God fore-ordained (and not merely foresaw) the Fall is essentially the debate within Calvinism of single predestination vs. double predestination.  If God truly made it inevitable that the first humans would rebel, then you can't really argue that God didn't directly predestine the non-elect to hell.

And what about Satan and the other fallen angels?  Did they have free will, or did God create them with a sinful nature so that they would inevitably rebel?

[Vlad!]

Not according to 1 Samuel 15:29

That verse is indeed quite clear on the subject. However, there are other passages which suggest that God showed regret or a desire to undo something that He did (when He was lamenting even leading the Israelites out of Israel). So we are faced with a few options:
1. Samuel was exaggerating or speaking from his own heart (i.e. not through some divine revelation) when he said what he said in 1 Samuel
2. The Biblical writers who portray God as changing His mind were engaging in hyperbole or personification
3. God was just toying with Moses and others, and He just pretended to let them talk Him into what He was going to do anyway
4. All of these passages are equally true and each refer to something slightly different.

I am inclined to believe the fourth option. Perhaps the 1 Samuel passage could be interpreted 'God does not lie and is not two-faced. He is not a man, that he would appear false.'

But this is something I could easily be wrong on. I don't believe that God will one day up and say 'oh, I changed my mind on the whole Hell thing. My bad. Everybody's going to heaven! Whee!' But to say that God CAN'T change His mind? Why would I put limits on God?

[Vlad!]

When faced with a choice between right and wrong, humans will ALWAYS pick the sinful option, 100% of the time, unless God intervenes. The Bible tells us this frequently; we are, after all, slaves to the sinful nature. So God didn't "force" them to do anything; however, He did choose not to intervene, which means that there is no way they would have acted differently than they did. It goes back to that concept of free agency.

The Bible is quite clear that nobody is righteous. The Bible is also quite clear that even if I lived a perfect life, I wouldn't get to heaven without Christ.
But does that mean that man will ALWAYS pick the sinful option? This implies that sin came from God, since God created us with a sin nature (i.e. our nature is not imparted by the Fall but embedded by God). I wouldn't write a program that will crash EVERY TIME unless I am sitting here pressing a button. In the same way, I don't think God would create man to sin EVERY TIME unless He forces us to do good.

And what about Satan and the other fallen angels? Did they have free will, or did create them with a sinful nature so that they would rebel?

I've almost given up trying to figure out how it works with the angels. Since we're not angels ourselves, maybe we should refrain from speculating in this thread about their fates.

[Josh]

But to say that God CAN'T change His mind? Why would I put limits on God?

I'd say that He CAN, but He WON'T.

[BigBird]

he can but time doesn't apply to him, that's weird to think about

what would it be like to be outside of time watching us

be back later, gone to get tylenol :-)

[standman87]

God doesn't drag people to Him kicking and screaming. The elect CHOOSE God. But they choose Him because He gives them the faith and the desire to do so. My former pastor once said that He loves us into loving Him, and that seems like a pretty good way of explaining it.

But in a backwards sort of way, you are saying that we choose God? So in since free will and predestination are both right, because how in the world does this make your action in life different from mine?

He can but time doesn't apply to Him, that's weird to think about

Thanks David for being the only one who actually even thought about my post earlier on. It seems that Josh and Nathan thought it was irrelevant - but I thought it should have ended a section of the discussion. Plus my answer (reading it over) to Josh's second question wasn't bad either.

[Vlad!]

Thanks David for being the only one who actually even thought about my post earlier on. It seems that Josh and Nathan thought it was irrelevant - but I thought it should have ended a section of the discussion. Plus my answer (reading it over) to Josh's second question wasn't bad either.

Way to pat yourself on the back there, Stan. Truth be told, saying it's impossible to answer a question doesn't end the discussion, it just removes you from the discussion while those of us who still want to look for an answer keep on going.

And I still want to hear Josh's (or David's, or someone else's) response to my response to his res...er...to my earlier post where I questioned whether mankind will ALWAYS pick the sinful option...because I don't think that necessarily follows from the scripture Jush referred to.

[Vlad!]

But to say that God CAN'T change His mind? Why would I put limits on God?

I'd say that He CAN, but He WON'T.

I can buy that, but I think that God is fully capable of changing with the times and staying relevant to the world today. This sometimes means that He has to change the way He presents Himself and His laws to us (which some might refer to as dispensationalism, though it goes deeper than that). For example, we don't follow the Jewish dietary laws (or at least I don't), because it seems pretty clear that those were revoked under what is traditionally called the New Covenant. That seems to me like God changing His mind...

[Josh]

I don't think that's changing His mind; I think He was planning all along to abolish the Jewish dietary laws after the coming of Christ.

[standman87]

Way to pat yourself on the back there, Stan. Truth be told, saying it's impossible to answer a question doesn't end the discussion, it just removes you from the discussion while those of us who still want to look for an answer keep on going.

The whole reason for that comment is because I think both of you disregarded my point. You cannot tell whether God takes risks because risks include the concept of time.

Now about the always picking the sinful option thing - that is a different question than what I addressed.

And in my opinion, when it is humanly impossible to grasp something they need to change their angle.

I find it funny that your director story-line came exactly from my post, but your explanations with stories behind them are probably easier reads. So pardon me and no hard feelings but I was in need of attention, because my points were being ignored. I'm such a crybaby...