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oneafroboy
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« on: July 31, 2003, 11:09:08 AM » |
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The topic says it all. Discuss.
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\"Living your life like you're trapped in a bad rap video is just not that appealing.\"
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DvChWi
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2003, 11:23:26 AM » |
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Simple answer: Yes. I need to look up some stuff to back that up, though, so it may be a bit before I have something more solid.
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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Josh
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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2003, 11:35:52 AM » |
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Ohhh... GREAT question!
My first instinct is to agree with Dv and say yes, but I reserve the right to change my mind after I look up some Scriptures and whatnot.
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polka_dot
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2003, 01:16:47 PM » |
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LOL. I just posted some thoughts about this in the free will topic. It's weird for me to think that God created evil - because he is a loving God. It's much easier to think that God allowed evil to be created. But I don't know.
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OUT! OUT! You demons of stupidity! - Dogbert
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DvChWi
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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2003, 04:10:54 PM » |
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It's much easier to think that God allowed evil to be created. But I don't know. By who? Here is my argument. God is eternal. If evil was not created, it must be eternal also. I think we can say this is false. So, evil was created. By who? I say God. Who do you say? |
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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bloop
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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2003, 04:52:24 PM » |
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God created evil by the simple act of defining the good, but the first evil being discovered it and made it prevalent.
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2003, 08:00:33 PM » |
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God created evil by the simple act of defining the good, but the first evil being discovered it and made it prevalent. I'm inclined to agree with my sagacious friend bloop on this one: God created (and embodies) good, so to go against God's will is to do evil. Also, to blaspheme is evil since speaking against God or claiming to be equal to God is to denounce good. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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PriestofDasani
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« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2003, 10:23:43 PM » |
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God created evil by the simple act of defining the good my thoughts exactly |
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oneafroboy
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« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2003, 10:31:15 PM » |
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I should specify my question, then. (Or maybe you guys were arguing that God did not *create* evil, but simply defined it.) Was evil in God's plan? Did God set up Adam and Eve to fall? Were Adam and Eve eventually going to screw up, anyway? Was the purpose of the tree and God's command to Adam and Even not eat of its fruit, simply the ball that got the whole thing rolling? That should do it. Hopefully I'm breweing up a good debate...for which I will not be present.  *Sigh* No matter. I'll read it...whenever I get back. |
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\"Living your life like you're trapped in a bad rap video is just not that appealing.\"
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ixoye41
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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2003, 10:54:57 PM » |
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i can't believe that evil was a "plan" of God's though he knew it would happen eventually. God cannot be around sin or evil. it is against his nature. so he i cannot conceive how he would "plan" for it.
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[][
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Guest
Guest
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« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2003, 11:20:06 PM » |
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Was evil in God's plan? Did God set up Adam and Eve to fall? Were Adam and Eve eventually going to screw up, anyway? Was the purpose of the tree and God's command to Adam and Even not eat of its fruit, simply the ball that got the whole thing rolling? Then isn't this really another excuse to debate Calvinism vs. Arminianism? |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2003, 10:43:26 AM » |
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Was evil in God's plan? Did God set up Adam and Eve to fall? Were Adam and Eve eventually going to screw up, anyway? Was the purpose of the tree and God's command to Adam and Even not eat of its fruit, simply the ball that got the whole thing rolling?
I think Guest is right...this is slowly (through entropy!) becoming a predestination debate. That's the Rebel Base law of thermodynamics for you. Anyway, I think the very presence of the tree that they were not supposed to eat from shows God's desire for man to have a choice regarding his own destiny: would he willingly obey God or would he become evil? An interesting side-question is: was Satan in God's plan? It seems that he kinda screwed up what God had intended to be rather isolated. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2003, 08:48:42 PM » |
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Well, when you think about it, this topic is very closely tied to Calvinism vs. Arminianism, so it's no surprise that the discussion is gravitating toward that.
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BigBird
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2003, 02:12:12 PM » |
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so to go against God's will is to do evil I often wonder who ever has gone against God's will... Name some. |
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bloop
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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2003, 02:51:00 PM » |
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I often wonder who ever has gone against God's will...
Name some. Oh goodness, here we go again! |
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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BigBird
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« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2003, 03:15:29 PM » |
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haha, sorry
it just seems as if everything ever discussed on this board have it's roots in one place...
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DvChWi
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« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2003, 05:19:26 PM » |
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Oh goodness, here we go again! Hey, its inextricably linked to the subject. If God planned everything out before hand, that would include Eve taking the fruit and and introducing original sin(evil) into the world. If Adam and Eve could have gone both ways, then the existence of evil is tied to their decision. So, the issue of predestination/free-will will affect your views on this particular issue. But here's a thought: the serpent was clearly evil, so some evil excisted before the fall. How did he come about? I think it was the same kind of situation Adam and Eve were in. He had a choice either way. But since God allowed both choices to excist, then God must be allowing evil, and, arguably, creating it. |
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« Last Edit: August 02, 2003, 05:19:51 PM by DvChWi »
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2003, 08:22:00 PM » |
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But here's a thought: the serpent was clearly evil, so some evil excisted before the fall. How did he come about? I think it was the same kind of situation Adam and Eve were in. He had a choice either way. But since God allowed both choices to excist, then God must be allowing evil, and, arguably, creating it. Adam and Eve didn't 'create' evil by eating the fruit. The evil was there, and they had the choice to engage in it or not. In the same way, the serpent didn't create evil. One could easily argue that good creates evil, since evil is the opposite of good. If nothing was good, nothing could be bad, since good can be defined as refraining from doing bad. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2003, 08:37:30 PM » |
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Actually, I agree with Vlad!'s last post. Eerie, huh?
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DvChWi
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« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2003, 08:44:54 PM » |
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Actually, I agree with Vlad!'s last post. Eerie, huh? And I guess I do to, mostly. Reading my previous post, I realize what I said was very poorly thought out and worded. I don't neccesarily believe that the existence of one thing means that other extreme exists, by definition. Its possible to conceive a universe in which there is no evil, for example. If God merely chose to live alone, there would be no evil. More to come later, I g2g. |
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2003, 08:51:08 PM » |
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Its possible to conceive a universe in which there is no evil, for example. If God merely chose to live alone, there would be no evil. There would BE no evil, but the concept would still exist. After all, I think it's fairly logical to believe that at one point God existed alone (the Trinity, one assumes; not God the Father). In this case, evil still was conceptually definable, just not present at that point in time. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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BigBird
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2003, 12:15:05 AM » |
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Isn't it possible for God to do things that are for us evil, and not be commiting evil? Like murder and such?
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Vlad!
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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2003, 11:27:02 AM » |
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Isn't it possible for God to do things that are for us evil, and not be commiting evil? Like murder and such? Good question, David. Very insightful. I wish I could give you a good answer  I think that man should not judge God. Rather, God made us and shaped us to see His justice and actions as right. So God's actions cannot be judged by man, but most men would see the actions of God as just. But I can't prove this. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2003, 01:05:06 PM » |
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Isn't it possible for God to do things that are for us evil, and not be commiting evil? Like murder and such? Yes, I would say so. God commited mass murder with the great flood in Genesis, did He not? And, as it turns out, it was for our own good. |
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bdg13disciple
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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2003, 02:10:07 PM » |
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really quickly . . .
create makes it sound like evil is a substance which it is not.
God allows evil to exist because it shows that everything he created is good. If it were not so, we could not be corrupted by evil.
or something that makes sense.
vlad! sounds like derrida or some other deconstructive thinker. every north must have a south, and every east a west. eh, you give me a headache.
back to work.
peace . . .
love . . .
bdg . . .
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Vlad!
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« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2003, 05:09:49 PM » |
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vlad! sounds like derrida or some other deconstructive thinker. every north must have a south, and every east a west. eh, you give me a headache. Sorry. Take some Advil. I don't claim that every concept also carries with it an opposite concept, but I doubt your claim that God allows evil to exist solely to show us what good is. If everything were good, would we not recognize it as good? Or would we find something that was less good than something else, thereby 'creating' evil again? I think the latter is false, since in heaven there will supposedly be NO evil, so good must be able to exist in a vacuum. The concept of evil may still be around, but it won't be manifested anywhere in God's presence. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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bdg13disciple
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« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2003, 08:59:24 PM » |
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i was kidding about the headache..
but, my thoughts on everything being good..
the hierarchy of good as i see it is below:
supreme good. incorruptible. a status only achieved by God himself.
good. everything created by God. the difference is in corruptibility. God saw that all was good. however, all was corruptible.
evil only exists in the corruption of good beings. evil cannot exist as a substance because if it did, it would be supremely good in that it could not be corrupted. (there is no good to be corrupted).
it's really kind of a strange way of thinking. that i'll agree to. but it also makes sense. i'm really working it out currently and thought it was pretty "coincidental" that there was a thread about it.
anyway. what do you think of that vlad! (and others)?
peace . . .
love . . .
bdg . . .
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Vlad!
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2003, 10:03:40 AM » |
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Well, I don't think of evil as a 'substance,' so I wouldn't say (for example) 'I have four grams of evil in this bag.' Evil isn't really a physical manifestation, but (as you seem to indicate) evidenced in the corruption of something that is good. But I never said that evil was a physical substance, just a concept.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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bdg13disciple
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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2003, 12:41:21 PM » |
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right, but concepts aren't created, they are realized.
to say God "created" evil, implies that it is a substance.
peace . . .
love . . .
bdg . . .
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Imladris
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2003, 09:09:00 PM » |
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Do you believe in Cold? You would answer yes, probably. But in actuality, Cold does not exist. Cold is simply the absence of heat.
Do you believe in the Dark? I expect you do. But Darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light.
So with Evil. Evil is simply the absence of GOD.
As far as God committing evil - doesn't happen. God is wholly and perfectly good. When the people were destroyed in the flood, that was not evil; that was justice. Noah and his family in the ark was mercy.
And there is a theory (one with which I agree) that God does not foresee and know everything that we are going to do. Some things are predetermined (i. e. Satan will lose and God will win; everything predicted in Revelation), and God will interfere in circumstances from time to time because of prayer, but He never interferes with free will. For those who have seen the movie, refer to Bruce Almighty.
~Imladris~
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Josh
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« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2003, 09:28:01 PM » |
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As far as God committing evil - doesn't happen. God is wholly and perfectly good. When the people were destroyed in the flood, that was not evil; that was justice. Noah and his family in the ark was mercy.
Exactly. This is an important theological concept. Certain acts are sinful when committed by humans, but not sinful when God does them. The flood is a great example. |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2003, 10:10:22 AM » |
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right, but concepts aren't created, they are realized.
to say God "created" evil, implies that it is a substance. Something doesn't have to be a substance for it to be created. And I like the analogy you made, Imladris: I think it has value. For instance, the opinion of apparently all the phorumers (regarding my 'Did God create physics?' post) is that God not only created the universe but space-time and all the forces that act on it. These aren't subscances, yet they were created. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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-Imladris-
Guest
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« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2003, 01:26:11 PM » |
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This just in:
I was listening to a Hebrew scholar this morning speaking on "The Fall" of man.
In Hebrew text, "Good" means that which is complete, finished, whole. Therefore when God declared his creation "Good", he declared that it was complete. (On a rabbit trail, he never declared man complete because we were never meant to be complete without him.)
The word that has been translated "Bad" simply refers to that which undoes, unravels, that which is complete. The mental image of a stray thread in a sweater comes to mind. Anything that demeans or undoes something from its original purpose is evil.
~Imladris~
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