'THE FANTASTIC FOUR'

[AldaForPresident]

I feel stupid every day!

Well, so do I. Usually not on the internet, though.

[starhawk]

I'm gunna side with Paul in one area- I love to go to the movies to be entertained.  I love to have fun watching a movie, and often, superhero flicks can be the best at providing that- Spiderman, Spiderman2, Hellboy, The Incredibles, a few others.  I think there is some legitimacy to just wanting to have simple fun- often lighthearted films of that kind can be a breath of fresh air.

But see, Fantastic Four isn't entertaining.  Yes, it's simple, but in a dumb way rather than a refreshing or even lighthearted way.  It isn't a fun movie.  It's an awkward, stilted, utterly conventional superhero flick whose simplicity only makes it harder to enjoy rather than more fun.  
I'll pull out a Roger Ebert quote to try and make my point clearer- it isn't what a movie is about, it is how a movie is about.  Fantastic Four tried to be a fun and lighthearted summer flick.  It failed, and that's why I didn't enjoy it, not because I'm some elitist jerk.

A good portion of the audience applauded, yes, and at the risk at sounding like a total snob, I was almost shocked that they did.  I think it's a lot like the appeal of Star Wars Episodes I and II- people love it because it's Star Wars (or in this case, the Fantastic Four), not because it's good.  That's why I think the film is making money.

[lazybloop]

But see, Fantastic Four isn't entertaining. Yes, it's simple, but in a dumb way rather than a refreshing or even lighthearted way. It isn't a fun movie. It's an awkward, stilted, utterly conventional superhero flick whose simplicity only makes it harder to enjoy rather than more fun.

I see what you're saying.  At least in the moment, I go for simple entertainment as well, and tend to consider the films other merits after I'm done watching.  For me, it's just a part of me getting caught up in the story and spectacle itself for a time.  Still, personally, I just as often go back and examine what I've just seen - what you're describing here sounds a lot like an assessment of the quality of the art (a person going purely for entertainment's sake isn't going to care much about how conventional the movie is).

[PaulDA]

A good portion of the audience applauded, yes, and at the risk at sounding like a total snob, I was almost shocked that they did.  I think it's a lot like the appeal of Star Wars Episodes I and II- people love it because it's Star Wars (or in this case, the Fantastic Four), not because it's good.  That's why I think the film is making money.

Is it possible that the people who applauded actually thought the movie was good?
Have any of you thought about that?
Just because you or I think a movie is good or bad doesn't mean others will share our opinions.
 

[PaulDA]

Several people I know who are Christians also subscribe to some of Darwin's theories. I don't know enough (or care enough, really) about any of it to pass judgement either way, but Darwinism and atheism are not synonyms, as bloop pointed out.
 

Darwinism is a tool of Satan.
When Christians believe in macro evolution, that is an added bonus for Satan, because the main purpose of macro evolution is to fool nonbelievers and keep them that way.

Satan has two missions in  life:
Keep people from accepting Jesus as Savior, thereby sentencing them to eternity in the Lake of Fore
and
Fooling Christians into accepting false doctrines and beliefs making them ineffectual for the Kingdom. Macro evolution is Satan's chief tool in this area.

[Vlad!]

[PaulDA]

[Vlad!]

[Guest]

You cannot share the Gospel if you believe we evolved from apes.

What is the Gospel to you and how is it in direct contradiction with general evolutionary theory (which human evolution would only be a part)?

Saying we evolved from other animals is the exact opposite of what the Bible says.

No.  Saying we are not a created work accomplished by God is the exact opposite of what the Bible says.  The mechanism is beside the point.

Any Christian who believes in macro evolution is being used by Satan whether they know it or not.

Whatever.

Macro evolution, an unprovable THEORY,  is taught as FACT in most schools and on scientific tv channels such as the Discovery Channel.

Somewhat true, but a misunderstanding of what makes scientific theory is inherent in this statement.

Macro evolution completely denies the existence of a Creator.

In itself, no.  You're wrong in a completely objective sense on this count.

When Christians believe in macro evolution and try to rationalize that with God existing, they are just playing into Satan's hands.
The two biggest tools of Satan today are macro evolution and Islam.

OK, I'm just not going to bother with any more sentences that say "Satan" that come from you.  It's as easy to knock down as SNL's Church lady.

[bloop]

^that was me - I didn't log in.

To get this back on the topic, it's my understanding that the "Fantastic 4" movie references evolution as a fact.  Hmm.    

[PaulDA]

[PaulDA]

To get this thread back on track, I have started another thread:
http://www.thephorum.net/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=2291

[PaulDA]

I will probably see this movie soon.
I will give as much of an unbiased review as I can.
 

[Josh]

I will probably see this movie soon.
I will give as much of an unbiased review as I can.

...said the guy who has already vowed that there is no way he could possibly dislike the movie.    

[PaulDA]

I will probably see this movie soon.
I will give as much of an unbiased review as I can.

...said the guy who has already vowed that there is no way he could possibly dislike the movie.  

You really have to get to know me to understand me.
(I know, I know, most of you wouldn't want to get to know me, and who can blame you? )
I will like the movie even if I think it was poorly made, but I will try to be unbiased in my review.
For instance, I love everything that Nicole C. Mullen records, but I did an unbiased revierw on CMC a while back where I noted that she was too reoetitive in certain areas and didn't strecth herself much.
I said all that after saying "I love the way she tells stories and the way she sings acertain way on each album"
I understand that everyone doesn't like the same things I do and that many people like change or growth or whatever you want to call it, where I am happy with the same type of product if I like something.
Call it comfort level or whatever, that's the way I am.
That's why I love Abbott and Costello for instance. I knew that i was going to get basically the same type of humoe in every movie.
Now do you understand a little better?

[PaulDA]

I hear the sequel will be called: 'FABULOUS FOUR' and will star the cast of
'Queer Eye For The Straight Guy'.  

[PaulDA]

Ok, I just went to a 1:10 PM matinee (paid $6 instead of $9.50) and here is my take on the movie.
I was prepearing for the worst, because of all the negative feedback, but I was pleasantly surpised and have no major criticisms of the movie, except for the ending.
I don't know what the critics are wailing about, the four people have wonderful character development, their personalities are established early and they flow through out the film. They did change almost everything from the original comic book, as far as the origin is concerned, but I have no problem with that because I realize the film makers are trying to reach a wide audience and not just the small amount of FF fans out there.
I was impressed at the give and take of Ben and Johnny. It was exactly like it is in the comic book. Reed comes off as a nerdy scientist, which is also how he is in the comic, and Ben Grimm is right on!! Moody, depressed and belligerant at times. After being a little nervous about how the Thing was going to look, I am happy with the results. He looks almost exactly right.
I must admit that the characterization of Dr. Doom as a New York City millionaire was rather streeeeetching things a bit, and that "you're fired" line after he tried to kill Sue was rather lame. However, the movie rolled along at a nice pace and the special effects were superb. The line about "Reed can stretch ANY part of his anatomy" was kind of funny because, whether people want to admit it or not, most people who read the Fantastic Four have always thought Sue must be a very happy wife!
I wouldn't normally like the fact that Alicia is played by a black woman, since she is white in the comic, but it grew on me after a minute or so. I thought the actres was very believable as Alicia and hope they flesh out her character more in the sequel.
The only complaint I have about the movie is it was too short and the climactic fight scene with Doom was a bit lame and predictable, but other than that, I enjoyed it.

[starhawk]

The pacing was ok in the first half, but the second half takes place almost entirely in Reed's apartment, with virtually no genuine story development taking place, with the exception of Dr. Doom's predicament with his business.  The Four test their powers and mope about in the lab/ around town, and that's about it till the end...I felt there needed to be much more going on to keep the film compelling.

There's characterization early on as each establishes their 'personality', but hardly any actual development with the exception of The Thing.   He seems to be the only one who even realizes that his life has changed...the other characters seem to go about like nothing even happened.  I realize that the story of the Fantastic Four is supposed to be 'four regular people who happen to have superpowers'...but I think they undermined that aspect by allowing other parts of the film to be poorly done.  The Incredibles I think does pretty much the same thing, but far more effectively.

Do you personally think the film is worth applause?

[PaulDA]

[The Thing] seems to be the only one who even realizes that his life has changed...the other characters seem to go about like nothing even happened.
 

Come on now, be fair. The other three remained human looking and could turn their powers on and off at will, where Ben turned into an orange rocky monstrosity. I think in real life he would have been a bit more upset, don't you?  

[starhawk]

I dunno, Paul.  I don't think that's enough of an excuse for the other characters to be so seemingly indifferent.  We're talking about attaining superpowers here.  The characters take it pretty well.  If you could burn at the heat of a supernova and potentially destroy the entire world, wouldn't that at least cause you some shock?

[PaulDA]

The pacing was ok in the first half, but the second half takes place almost entirely in Reed's apartment, with virtually no genuine story development taking place, with the exception of Dr. Doom's predicament with his business.  The Four test their powers and mope about in the lab/ around town, and that's about it till the end...I felt there needed to be much more going on to keep the film compelling.

Do you personally think the film is worth applause?

I agree the film could have used some more 'punch' in the second half, but most superhero films where the origin must be established are much slower than the sequels, where the characters can jump right into 'superheroism'.

Warning: loooong sentence ahead! :
It was a feel good movie, with some pathos thrown in, and, yes, I do think the movie was worth applauding, although at the matinee I was at, 1:10 PM, there were no more than 15 people there (which is really normal for that time period during the week for most movies) and no one applauded at the end.

 

[PaulDA]

I dunno, Paul.  We're talking about attaining superpowers here.  The characters take it pretty well.  If you could burn at the heat of a supernova and potentially destroy the entire world, wouldn't that at least cause you some shock?

Well, Johnny did back off after Reed showed him how danerous it could be. Johnny is a 'daredevil' (no pun intended), and he goes for the thrills, the death defying motor cycle stunts, the jumping out of helicopters to ski, etc.
Reed was very worried, and so was Sue. They didn't even want to leave the building until Reed found a cure for their powers.
Why do you say they weren't worried?
Did you want them to break down weeping or something?

[starhawk]

The pacing was ok in the first half, but the second half takes place almost entirely in Reed's apartment, with virtually no genuine story development taking place, with the exception of Dr. Doom's predicament with his business.  The Four test their powers and mope about in the lab/ around town, and that's about it till the end...I felt there needed to be much more going on to keep the film compelling.

Do you personally think the film is worth applause?

I agree the film could have used some more 'punch' in the second half, but most superhero films where the origin must be established are much slower than the sequels, where the characters can jump right into 'superheroism'.

Warning: loooong sentence ahead! :
It was a feel good movie, with some pathos thrown in, and, yes, I do think the movie was worth applauding, although at the matinee I was at, 1:10 PM, there were no more than 15 people there (which is really normal for that time period during the week for most movies) and no one applauded at the end.

I do think that a sequel, if ther is one, has a chance at being better now that things are established.

and it could be that the other origin superhero story that came out recently, Batman Begins, totally blew me away, so it might have taken some of the steam out of the Fantastic Four.

[PaulDA]

and it could be that the other origin superhero story that came out recently, Batman Begins, totally blew me away, so it might have taken some of the steam out of the Fantastic Four.

Well, that movie may very well be technically better than the FF movie, and many folks will go for that, but I know I won't like it better simply because I am not a Batman fan.
It's hard to explain, FF is too me like Abbott and Costello are in movies, how James Brown is in secular music and how Rebecca St. James is in CCM: FF is my all time favorite comic book since 1963 or so, when I was about 7.
Once I have established a REAL favorite in a certain area, I never change.
To put it in perspective, if Lord Of The Rings wasn't one of my favorite books, I wouldn't have liked the movies as much as I did. And it's not even my favorite fantasy book, so you can imagine how I would be when something that is my actual favorite is made into a movie.

[starhawk]

I think being a fan is just fine, to an extent...as long as the fan can accept that the film/music/whatever may be technically unimpressive, and as long as it doesn't cause you to ignore other works.  I'm a huge fan of Studio Ghibli films (Howl's Moving Castle), I've bought nearly each one available in the U.S., but some of their  works aren't nearly as impressive as others.  I still love them all though.

[bloop]

I'm still of the opinion that if you really love something a lot, you love it enough to say that a particular piece that is under its banner misrepresents that thing.  

I love Batman.  "Batman & Robin" sucked.

I love Radiohead.  Pablo Honey is merely ok in places.

I love the Beatles.  Most of the individual band member's solo work is a little blase.

I love "Star Wars".  Episode I is too infantile (I don't want fart jokes in my "Star Wars" movies, thanks).

I love "the Godfather".  What happened with part 3?

To me, if you refuse take each new thing individually to discover actual merits (as opposed to fake "Cool!  It's Fantastic 4" merits), then I question whether you really love that thing all that much.

[PaulDA]

[PaulDA]

I am going to see FF again today at a 4:30 matanee with my 12 year old daughter Myla, and then again tomorrow at a 1:10 matinee with my good friend Huao (he is Chinese and the pronunciation is something like 'Hwah'..... but it comes out 'Wa').

Huao is  giant comic book collector. As a matter of fact we met over ten years ago selling comic books at a comic book convention.

I will let you know their takes on it.

[bloop]

[PaulDA]

[Brenden]

Oh my Lord.
Reed (and maybe the Thing) would have women smiling BIG time, don'tcha think?
(I can't believe I just wrote that! )

Bad picture!    

[bloop]

Anyway, the obvious reason I wrote that was that I know Paul wouldn't appreciate such a movie (or he'd feel rather guilty if he did   ).

I also know it stands a snowball's chance in hell at ever being made, anyway, so think hypothetically.

[PaulDA]

I also know it stands a snowball's chance in hell at ever being made, anyway, so think hypothetically.

On the contrary, there have been many porn movies made spoofing real movies.
Nothing famous, but in the past I have seen some video covers with titles like:
'Star Whores' etc.....
So.....'Fantastic Whore?"  
(Oh boy.....I'm on roll this morning.....have I been drinking??? )

[PaulDA]

And, what would Ben Grimm's name be.....The Thong???  

[Josh]

[PaulDA]

Or.....it could be that people actually like the film and told their friends to see it.  

[PaulDA]

Here is a review from Charity Bishop at http://www.charitysplace.com/, which is a large Christian based movie review site.
She enjoyed the film.

FANTASTIC FOUR

REVIEWED BY CHARITY BISHOP

Our rating: 4 out of 5

Because of: sensuality, thematic elements

Rated:  PG13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Though it doesn't bear much resemblance to the original comic book, The Fantastic Four is a surprisingly good popcorn flick. Bankrupted by his serious study into science, Reed Richards (Ioan Gruffudd) is forced to ask the assistance in bankrolling his latest project. A massive space storm is due to hit the atmosphere, granting them the possibility of running tests to determine if human evolution could be improved through harnessing that power. He goes to Victor Von Doom (Julian McMahon), whose high-tech space station has the protection necessary to prevent human exposure to the radioactive storm. Hoping that it will raise his stock options and gather public interest, Victor pours funding into the project, assigning Richards and his pilot Ben (Michael Chiklis) to share the space station not only with himself, but also the Storm siblings.

Sue (Jessica Alba) is still recovering after a two-year breakup with Richards. Pursued by her wealthy employer and with her hands busy keeping her brother Johnny (Chris Evans) out of trouble, she has very little patience for the project. Only when on the station does Richards discover his calculations were way off, the storm is projected to hit within a matter of minutes rather than hours. The scientists are exposed to highly radioactive waves that eventually begin to reveal DNA-alteration. Johnny bursts into flames while snowboarding. Su suddenly becomes invisible during dinner. Richards inadvertently stretches ten feet. Poor Ben has the worst of the deal. Unable to control the appearance of his powers, he transforms into a human rock.

While the public is enamored with their new band of "superheroes," the Fantastic Four, as they've been dubbed by the press, attempt to get over personal and emotional issues. Ben's marriage suffers. Sue comes to grips with her feelings for Richards. Johnny lets fame go to his head. Victor has noticed symptoms of his own, but rather than harnessing them for good, he intends to unleash them against all who stand in defiance. It's not the most ingenious plot for a movie, but does pack enough of a punch to keep audiences interested. The primary characters are all very likable, with semi-realistic problems that must be overcome in order to form a fighting unit. They're also the only band of comic book heroes you'll ever meet that actually want to be rid of their powers! The film has a great soundtrack, nice special effects, and everything going for it in terms of casting. There's nothing weak about it.

Victor uses electricity to fry a hole through a man's chest, in the most gruesome scene of the film, but other than that, the violence is standard for superhero movies. Hand to hand combat, electrical currents, cars flipping over one another and exploding into flames; the Four occasionally lash out at one another. Major damage is done to the city and the Brooklyn Bridge (in the name of heroism; Ben inadvertently causes a pileup of cars, but then saves the lives of a half dozen firefighters and cops). Sue is thrown around by the bad guy. Language is minimal except for one abuse each of GD and Jesus. Sensuality is a bit more prevalent, but never in excess. There are two sexual innuendos. Johnny is a playboy who flirts shamelessly with girls. He plows into a snow bank on fire, and it's presumed that none of his clothes remained. He coyly asks his female skiing partner to join him in the "hot tub." In several later scenes, he's shown clutching her ski coat around his waist to prevent from flashing passerby (it rides rather low).

Loose clothing cannot become invisible with Sue, leading her to strip naked in the middle of a crowd in order to slip away. (Her body is missing, but her underclothes are shown.) Briefly her powers waver, leaving her standing there in her underwear. On another occasion, Richards walks in while she's taking a shower, but she turns invisible and the audience sees nothing but the towel. Evolution is briefly mentioned at the beginning of the film as the theory for human existence. Ben complains at a bar that God must hate him for allowing him to look like this, and a woman seated nearby replies that "She" (implying a female deity) doesn't hate him. Fantastic Four may have a handful of flaws, but is well worth the price of admission.

 

[PaulDA]

I just saw the movie again, this time with my daughter, and i enjoyed it more this time than last time.
I noticed something this time I failed to notice yesterday.
Johnny Storm does have blond hair, except it is a dirty blond.
The Thing even mentioned something about blond hair.
My daughter liked the movie, and I don't think she expected to.
And there was applause at the end. There was about 30 people in the 4:40 matinee.
Myla wanted to know if Doom was nude at the end when he was frozen. I said, I don't think so, (was he?) but she said she saw a six pack. I said, oh, just like me? She said, daddy, you have a one pack.  

[PaulDA]

Hmmmm.....everyone likes to bash this movie but when I post a review from a Christian reviewer who thoroughly went over the movie and who actually likes it, no one comments.....

[bloop]

Hmmmm.....everyone likes to bash this movie but when I post a review from a Christian reviewer who thoroughly went over the movie and who actually likes it, no one comments.....

Correction:  I haven't seen the movie.  My contention has always been liking something before knowing it (this could be applied to disliking something as well).

As for the others, I think they've just moved on.