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Vlad!
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« on: July 31, 2003, 08:09:27 PM » |
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Ok, so I have to ask: did God create physics? I myself am inclined to believe that physical laws (gravity, electromagnetism, thermodynamics, etc.) are an intrinsic part of reality and were not necessarily created by God--He just is not constrained by them. In the same way, did God create atoms? Not the physical atoms, but the whole concept of atoms? And space (as in physical, three-dimensional space)...was that Him (or was it Al Gore? Hmm...)?
This may seem like a goofy question, but it's really one that's been straining my brain as of late.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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PriestofDasani
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2003, 10:18:07 PM » |
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"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made." John 1:1-3 (KJV) To me that says that God created everything. So far as all these things existing... well it seems to me that the harder science tries to explain something, the more questions there are. Maybe you know more about this than I do and if so please share, but think about atoms. Atoms are meant to explain what everything is made of. But with Atoms we must ask how are they held together. Supposedly "Strong nuclear forces" hold the nucleous together, but how, what is in them? There maybe an answer to this, but I am just saying... Okay another way to put this is as follows. God created the universe, this explains how everything got here. But how did God get here? He has exsisted forever, but how. There always seems to be another question, which I have to think is why we are human and God is God. (He knows)
NIR:maybe for my persuasive paper I should try and prove that nothing can be proven.
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« Last Edit: July 31, 2003, 10:26:11 PM by PriestofDasani »
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oneafroboy
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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2003, 10:22:47 PM » |
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I would say that the laws of physics, or more generally, natural law, is an intrinsic part of our universe, not necessarily of an outer reality. I tend to think that natural law, including entropy (which would also include the passage of time--the direction of flow of entropy), was all created by God as a part of this universe. I believe that as we digger deeper into science, we will see that the invisible forces (e.g. time) and the material (e.g. atoms )are not easily separated--hence, the fabric of space-time.
Now in other possible universes, which God may or may not have created (another question that leads to much speculation and few answers) may have different physical properties. It is so hard to think of a reality without these things around us. This is all we know. I could be wrong though, but with God anything is possible. So, I'm opened to options. =D
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\"Living your life like you're trapped in a bad rap video is just not that appealing.\"
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oneafroboy
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2003, 10:26:27 PM » |
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Btw, welcome Priest of Dasani. Where is Dasani? Or are you simply a fan of the bottled water? =)
Good words, PoD. The more science tries to explain things, the more question appear. I think even if we finally figure out the Unified Theory (that's right folks, the big one that's meant to explain space-time fabric, strings and such), it will only lead to more questions.
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\"Living your life like you're trapped in a bad rap video is just not that appealing.\"
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ixoye41
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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2003, 11:07:11 PM » |
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check out what Paul writes in Colossians 1:16-17... "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
might be a stretch, but maybe this is your strange nuclear force holding atoms together!
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Guest
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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2003, 11:23:12 PM » |
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I think God created physics and boring physics teachers.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2003, 10:39:07 AM » |
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check out what Paul writes in Colossians 1:16-17... "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
might be a stretch, but maybe this is your strange nuclear force holding atoms together! Well, people used to believe that it was God who physically moved the sun across the sky. Now we know that the earth and the sun both move due to gravity, brought into play when mass creates a shadow of influence around itself. Did God create gravity, or did He just use it? I don't think that those Bible verses necessarily refer to physical forces. When John says 'visible and invisible,' I think it's pretty obvious he means angels and demons and spiritual realms, not strong nuclear forces and magnetic fields. As I understand it, the unified field theory is an attempt to relate gravity and electromagentism (and probably strong and weak nuclear forces) the way electricity and magnetism are related. Unfortunately, the man most likely to devise one was Albert Einstein, and he is dead. His rarefied form of calculus that he used is comprehensible only to a select few today. Back to the topic at hand, though, I don't think it is necessary that God created this. Something probably existed prior to creation--I don't think God necessarily created actual space that we exist in either. Maybe that something was nothingness, but perhaps forces acted (or would have acted) on this nothingness were there something there to be acted on. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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PriestofDasani
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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2003, 10:47:47 AM » |
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Btw, welcome Priest of Dasani. Where is Dasani? Or are you simply a fan of the bottled water? =) no, I'm no Priest, I'm Baptist, and the nickname was given to me because I almost always drink water with meals. Welcome?? I'm not new here, I just don't post often. (Like Fru looks around some but only has one post...)(on the old board I had almost 200 posts, I think. I have a tendency of making longer posts than I inteded to and I have things that I have to do besides this, right now...) |
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ixoye41
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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2003, 01:09:32 PM » |
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I believe God created physical laws and the space in which we exist. He set things in motion to work the way we see them working (gravity, magnetism, etc). Its really pretty simple and not much to think about.
remember that all good things come from God. i like to think these physical laws are rather good for me and are beneficial to my survival.
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BigBird
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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2003, 03:14:14 PM » |
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Yeah I think God created all physics and blah, I don't really understand how you couldn't believe this as a Christian, but really haven't put much thought into it either way...
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BigBird
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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2003, 03:18:18 PM » |
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Oh, and I heard in a conversation that we now know that light has mass, I don't really know how long we've known that, but it's pretty cool. So now we cannot necessarily differentiate things that are matter and things that are waves...
or something.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2003, 03:25:28 PM » |
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We've known that for a while, David. In fact, Einstein himself postulated it I believe, and it was proven when we were able to observe the effects of the sun's mass on light coming from a star. | | S / | E Where S is the sun and E is the earth, and the line is the path of the light ^_^ Ok, physics lesson over  |
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« Last Edit: August 01, 2003, 03:26:41 PM by Vlad! »
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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BigBird
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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2003, 03:31:38 PM » |
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so it's interesting that gravity affects light
and if the reverse is assumable, could we find a way to adjust wavelengths of atoms to let light pass right through our favorite objects?
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enemy anemone
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« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2003, 03:39:23 PM » |
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interesting discussion.
here are my random thoughts...
I had take it for granted that God created the physical laws, and that the "all things" mentioned in Colossians 1:16-17 and John 1 doesn't exclude anything.
I haven't studied much physics, but what I know of it makes me think of how awesome and powerful and orderly and complex God is.
actually, one of the reasons I believe in God is because the world--the whole universe, actually--and the laws that govern it are so complex and amazing that they couldn't just exist out of nothingness.
this might be kind of a tangent, but this was my approach when thinking about this topic at the moment. as humans, we want to know where things came from. perhaps it could be dismissed as "too easy" to believe that in the beginning, God made everything and the reason everything came into being is because God made them, or at least he made the "basics" and set them into motion. even though that is what I have been taught all my life, sometimes I get a nagging feeling that to think so is "too simple", kind of like, "well, we are too dumb and don't know, so we will just say that God made everything; there, that takes care of it and we don't need to try to understand it anymore."
but, for example, if a person believes in evolution, from what I understand, there's only so far back that they can go, saying, "well this evolved from that and that evolved from the other," and then they hit the spot where they can't explain where the first particles of whatever came from. if a person has to believe in some First Element whose existence cannot be explained but is just taken for granted, well, I personally don't think it makes sense to believe in miniscule particles or whatever that came from nowhere and because of whatever they did according to whatever laws that happened to co-exist with them, everything in the universe resulted; I would rather believe in an all-powerful Being who does not need to be created or explained, because he just Is, and he is the one who created everything, everything that is Other than his own existence.
does God "need" physical laws in order to exist? does he *need* gravity or electromagnetism otherwise he would not exist? it is difficult for us to comprehend exactly how God does exist (I especially find the fact of his eternal existence the most mind-boggling) but from my foggy notions, I wouldn't think he would need physical laws, so they wouldn't be an intrinsic part of who he is and therefore existing along with him. so they would not have existed before he created anything and therefore he would have created them.
another tangetial thought but I will throw it in...it seems that a general conception is that religious/spiritual truths and scientific truths are at opposite poles, so to speak, with an unbridgeable gap between them. for me and for now, I find it helpful to think of them as being back-to-back and going out in opposite directions but with God as the center and their common point, so to speak.
I apologize if none of this makes much sense; it is 1:13pm and I haven't eaten a thing. time to find some food.
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BigBird
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« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2003, 03:53:35 PM » |
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I think that the end of the path of scientific knowledge only points to God... perhaps it could be dismissed as "too easy" to believe that in the beginning, God made everything and the reason everything came into being is because God made them Yeah too easy. I've wondered about this before, it's a tangeant. What if eating from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" allowed Adam and Eve to start seeing and learning in the scientific sense. It would be very rudimentary for them but down the line of desendants, we see an evolution of thought and knowledge that still continues today... Pardon me, this probably makes very little sense. |
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standman87
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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2003, 09:28:10 PM » |
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"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made." John 1:1-3 (KJV) To me that says that God created everything. So far as all these things existing... well it seems to me that the harder science tries to explain something, the more questions there are. Maybe you know more about this than I do and if so please share, but think about atoms. Atoms are meant to explain what everything is made of. But with Atoms we must ask how are they held together. Supposedly "Strong nuclear forces" hold the nucleous together, but how, what is in them? There maybe an answer to this, but I am just saying... Okay another way to put this is as follows. God created the universe, this explains how everything got here. But how did God get here? He has exsisted forever, but how. There always seems to be another question, which I have to think is why we are human and God is God. (He knows)
NIR:maybe for my persuasive paper I should try and prove that nothing can be proven. Nathaniel, you said something worth repeating. You deserve praise and don't let Vlad!, Josh, and the crew discourage you. You have off-the-wall posts but sometimes the ball bounces into the basket. good verse, ixoye41: check out what Paul writes in Colossians 1:16-17... "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Vlad?: I don't think that those Bible verses necessarily refer to physical forces. When John says 'visible and invisible,' I think it's pretty obvious he means angels and demons and spiritual realms, not strong nuclear forces and magnetic fields.
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Back to the topic at hand, though, I don't think it is necessary that God created this. Something probably existed prior to creation--I don't think God necessarily created actual space that we exist in either. Maybe that something was nothingness, but perhaps forces acted (or would have acted) on this nothingness were there something there to be acted on. Nathan, the verse says that all things were created by Him / and you say " I don't think God necessarily created...". Vlad, don't deny the Word and don't define the Word (God created everything invisible except nuclear forces, magnetic fields, and space.), so that it goes along with your idea. |
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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Vlad!
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« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2003, 08:48:17 PM » |
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Fair enough. I don't purport to understand how these physical forces work exactly, so it's easy to just say "God did it" and leave it at that. I just think sometimes about how things that for centuries were directly attributed to God turn out to in fact be the result of observable scientific forces. Not to say that God couldn't have created these forces, of course; it's just something to consider.
One very related question is about what all existed before creation. If physical space existed, I think it's logical to suggest that physical laws existed too. But God certainly doesn't seem to be bound by these laws, so I can accept that He created them. But absolute nothingness just boggles my poor finite mind, so I'm just trying to get a handle on this concept.
Thanks for the great discussions, guys! Keep it coming. I'm inclined to agree with the prevailing notion, but sometimes I argue the other side just to get some questions answered.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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