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PaulDA
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« on: April 10, 2005, 05:03:25 PM » |
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In the OT, from what I have gathered, people were saved not by works, but also by grace through faith by looking ahead to the coming of the Messiah, even though they had no n ame to go by.
John Hagee teaches that the Jews who follow the OT will be saved.
I don't believe that, but I would like to open up a discussion on this.
Is it possible since the Jews in the OT were saved by looking ahead to the coming of the Messiah that the Jews today can be saved the same way even though they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah?
This has always troubled me, because the Jews are the 'chosen people' and yet most, for hundreds of years, have gone to their graves not believing in Jesus Christ as Messiah. What good is being the 'chosen people' if most of them are headed for hell?
Can they be saved by their faith in looking to the Messiah even though they are decieved and don't believe Jesus is the Messiah?
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« Last Edit: April 10, 2005, 05:03:58 PM by PaulDA »
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Josh
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2005, 05:09:46 PM » |
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Is it possible since the Jews in the OT were saved by looking ahead to the coming of the Messiah that the Jews today can be saved the same way even though they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah? No, it isn't. The Jews of the OT had faith-- which is the only means by which we can be saved-- whereas the orthodox (ie, not Messianic) Jews of today do not have faith. They do't get a free pass just for being Jewish. This has always troubled me, because the Jews are the 'chosen people' and yet most, for hundreds of years, have gone to their graves not believing in Jesus Christ as Messiah. What good is being the 'chosen people' if most of them are headed for hell? An excellent question. The answer, simply put, is that the Jews are no longer the chosen people, not under the New Covenant. |
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PaulDA
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2005, 05:19:43 PM » |
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No, it isn't. The Jews of the OT had faith-- which is the only means by which we can be saved-- whereas the orthodox (ie, not Messianic) Jews of today do not have faith. They do't get a free pass just for being Jewish.
An excellent question. The answer, simply put, is that the Jews are no longer the chosen people, not under the New Covenant. Some people would argue with you and say: 1. The Jews today DO have faith.....they are loking ahead to coming of the Messiah. 2. They still ARE the chosen people. |
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Josh
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2005, 05:27:49 PM » |
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The Jews today DO have faith.....they are loking ahead to coming of the Messiah. Okay, let me rephrase... the Jews do not have faith in Jesus Christ, which is what one must have to attain salvation. Faith in someone/something other than Christ will not suffice. 2. They still ARE the chosen people. Well, people can argue that all they want, but there simply isn't any evidence in the biblical text to support it. In fact, the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that salvation is for Gentiles as well as Jews. |
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PaulDA
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2005, 07:16:12 PM » |
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Well, people can argue that all they want, but there simply isn't any evidence in the biblical text to support it. In fact, the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that salvation is for Gentiles as well as Jews. The people say the Jews are the 'chosen people' not because they are the only ones saved, but because God used them for His glory. |
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Josh
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2005, 07:20:53 PM » |
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The people say the Jews are the 'chosen people' not because they are the only ones saved, but because God used them for His glory. God has used plenty of non-Jews for His glory. In fact, He's used some pretty depraved, non-Christian individuals, as well (ie, Judas, Pharaoh, etc). |
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PaulDA
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2005, 07:52:50 PM » |
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God has used plenty of non-Jews for His glory. In fact, He's used some pretty depraved, non-Christian individuals, as well (ie, Judas, Pharaoh, etc). I meant that He used them as a whole people. |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2005, 08:34:02 PM » |
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The way I have always interpreted it is that in the Old Testament Jews were saved through the Law. Since nobody actually perfectly followed the law, the punishment was meted out by proxy onto a sacrifice. Direct correlation can be seen between this and Christ's own sacrifice. The question is, after Christ's sacrifice can Jews be saved through animal sacrifice (as they were prior to the death of Christ) or is that no longer a valid method of salvation?
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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PaulDA
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2005, 12:38:46 AM » |
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The way I have always interpreted it is that in the Old Testament Jews were saved through the Law. Since nobody actually perfectly followed the law, the punishment was meted out by proxy onto a sacrifice. Direct correlation can be seen between this and Christ's own sacrifice. The question is, after Christ's sacrifice can Jews be saved through animal sacrifice (as they were prior to the death of Christ) or is that no longer a valid method of salvation? Well, according to a few apologists I have heard, including Hank Hannagraff, no one can be saved by the law because no one can keep the law perfectly, so they were saved also by grace through faith by looking ahead to the Messiah. |
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Josh
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2005, 08:33:30 AM » |
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Well, according to a few apologists I have heard, including Hank Hannagraff, no one can be saved by the law because no one can keep the law perfectly, so they were saved also by grace through faith by looking ahead to the Messiah. Yes, this is the biblical teaching on the matter. (For Scripture references, see... well, pretty much all of Romans!) |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2005, 10:34:27 AM » |
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Well, according to a few apologists I have heard, including Hank Hannagraff, no one can be saved by the law because no one can keep the law perfectly, so they were saved also by grace through faith by looking ahead to the Messiah. 1: No one can be saved through the law Right, this doesn't disagree with what I said, or at least what I tried to say. I said they were saved through the Law but nobody followed the Law. 2: Saved by grace through faith They were saved by grace: the grace of God allowing the punishment for their sins to be transferred to another. 3: Looking ahead to the Messiah Although, as I said, the practice anticipates the coming of the Messiah, it was not until much later (the coming of the prophets) that the Jews began to understand with foresight what we can see throughout the Old Testament in hindsight: that God would send a Christ to save them. Note that even then the Jews did not assume that the salvation would come in the form of a sacrifice. The Jews themselves, then, were not looking ahead with faith towards a future savior but rather following the Law and the rules for what one did when the Law was broken. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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RedcoatJones
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2005, 10:54:17 AM » |
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PaulDA
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2005, 11:42:15 AM » |
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Others cite such texts as Ephesians 1:10 or 1 Timothy 2:3-7 to emphasize God's will that everyone and all things receive new life. That is interesting. I wonder what the people think of the Great White Throne Judgement in Revelation if they think everyone will be saved? Do they think it's like a GIANT purgatory type thing where they will be cleansed over time? |
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« Last Edit: April 11, 2005, 08:08:56 PM by PaulDA »
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RedcoatJones
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2005, 11:56:52 AM » |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2005, 12:38:39 PM » |
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The Great White Thrown of judgement? What, does he throw it at you?
I don't like to think too much about this sort of thing because I have the sneaking suspicion I will never know the answer. I had a Bible teacher in high school who said that he thinks hell will be a lot like earth is now, with the difference that there is no hope and people know it. They will engage in the same depravity, live the same empty lives, and worship the same material things, all while knowing that they missed the boat. Heaven, on the other hand, is described as a place with no crying or sadness or pain. Whether there is regret in heaven, who knows? As for comfort or high position, I think the former is sort of implied and the latter is pointless--if those in heaven are sinless, the lust for power will not exist. Therefore, how could one position be higher than another?
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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PaulDA
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2005, 02:42:56 PM » |
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The Great White Thrown of judgement? What, does he throw it at you?
I was just wondering about those people who think the Bible shows everyone being saved, how they interpret the Great White Throne Judgement. |
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« Last Edit: April 11, 2005, 08:08:19 PM by PaulDA »
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Vlad!
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2005, 04:58:01 PM » |
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The Great White Thrown of judgement? What, does he throw it at you?
I was just wondering about those people who think the Bible shows everyone being saved, how they unterpret the Great White Thrown Judgement. I know. And since it's spelled 'throne' I was making fun of you  |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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PaulDA
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2005, 08:10:35 PM » |
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The Great White Thrown of judgement? What, does he throw it at you?
I was just wondering about those people who think the Bible shows everyone being saved, how they unterpret the Great White Thrown Judgement. I know. And since it's spelled 'throne' I was making fun of you Oops.....   I went back and edited. :bosh: :brickwall: :bonk:  8-) |
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« Last Edit: April 11, 2005, 08:11:44 PM by PaulDA »
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