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Josh
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« on: April 11, 2005, 05:53:23 PM » |
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Ken Morefield criticizes the Left Behind series, calling it "evangelical pornography." I thought this would make for an interesting discussion, especially in light of the other two, um, porn-related threads that we've had recently.
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murlough23
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2005, 06:13:02 PM » |
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Three porn-threads! I guess that makes us Triple X or something.
I have to admit, while I'm also a detractor of Left Behind, I'm not following this article's logic. The book is pornographic because it mirrors real-life desires of evangelical Christians who don't want to acknowledge them out in the open, or something? Kind of baffling, if you ask me.
NP: "Willoughby", Over the Rhine
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Vlad!
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2005, 06:28:05 PM » |
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Hmm...
This is what I get out of the article:
Left Behind is pornography because it caters to the readers. It puts them in a fantasy world where they can feel good about themselves because the frustration and anger that the target audience feels is justified and those who marginialize or mock the target audience receive their comeuppance and acknowledge that they were wrong. Christian readers can feel that they are better than the protagonists and they can laugh at the humilation of and smile at the repentance of the characters who represent the typer of person who mocks Christians and Christianity or who denies it to the sadness and frustration of the reader.
It took him about 3.5 pages to say this. He takes a bit of the last page to say that one could point out that he is reading with a type of paranoia that expects to find inherently self-contradictory and nearly irrefutable evidence of a 'conspiracy'. He sort of brushes over this point and continues to talke about the book and how it gratifies its readers.
He makes some excellent points, but I think his thesis is flawed. I haven't read any of the books myself, but the excerpts suggest that they are poorly-written escapism for a niche audience. I don't really consider this to be pornography. It essentially creates a fantasy world where the reader can feel good about him or herself because things work out in such a way that the readers are vindicated in almost every detail. It's similar to the fiction you see written by outcast nerds where the protagonist is--surprise!--an outcast nerd who somehow manages to get the girl and through his intelligence and previously undiscovered skill thwarts his erstwhile tormentors and wins the day. Or maybe the horrible fan-fiction where two characters in an existing external series are paired up in a horribly cliche romance.
This is very bad writing, as I'm sure my tone has indicated. However, I'm not sure it's pornography. It's gratification, granted, but I think it takes more than that to be pornography. It's less of a vicarious experience of something immoral and more of a "if the universe suddenly became this way then you would have to admit I was right."
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2005, 06:34:36 PM » |
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Peter T. Chattaway weighs in with a (shorter) commentary in his blog.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2005, 06:51:07 PM » |
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FWIW, it may also be possible to look at the Left Behind series as a simple revenge fantasy. John Shelton Lawrence and Robert Jewett explore this angle when they include the film in their chapter on disaster movies in The Myth of the American Superhero; there, they coin the term "Tertullian ecstasy" to describe the almost sensual pleasure that Christians such as Tertullian and Jonathan Edwards have expressed at the thought of seeing the wicked unbelievers punished -- ideally in this life, but certainly in hell. (And the Left Behind series is, basically, all about how this world goes to hell, once all the Christians have been removed.) I don't see how it's anything more than this. It takes a very broad definition of pornography to include the Left Behind series. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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dgp11776
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2005, 07:09:22 AM » |
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Then I guess I'm a porn fan. I liked the Left Behind series, despite the one big flaw that I see (those that heard the gospel before the Rapture had a second chance for salvation). Other than that, I think Tim LaHaye did a good job painting a picture of what the world could be like post-Rapture. In fact, I found the books to be a pretty decent commentary on Revelation and the O.T. prophets.
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PaulDA
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2005, 09:25:58 AM » |
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Ken Morefield criticizes the Left Behind series, calling it "evangelical pornography." He is correct in a way, because the whole LEFT BEHIND series is based on a 200 year old theory of a pre-trib rapture that is not held by most denominations today nor by most scholars. It is the 'Christian fad' of the moment, and many fall pray to it's attraction, (after all, it is much more comforting to think we will be whisked off the earth during the tribulation, than to go through it. Never mind that ALL the first apostles and many Christians in the past and even today in other countries have died for Christ in horrifying ways.) People feel that they are special because they may be alive during the return of Christ and show therefore not suffer anything for the cause of Christ. This makes me laugh because American Christians in general have never gone through much tribulation anyway and any little thing, like trying to take prayer out of schools, makes them think they are being persecuted. When you are thrown in jail for having a Bible, as happens in some countries now around the world and you are tortured and mutilated, THAT'S what persecution is. |
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« Last Edit: April 12, 2005, 09:29:38 AM by PaulDA »
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Josh
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2005, 09:44:26 AM » |
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Indeed, the theological issues plaguing Left Behind are numerous. Everything from its treatment of the Catholic faith to its claim that the Antichrist is one man (rather than a group of people), etc. just doesn't coincide with what the Scriptures teach.
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Brenden
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2005, 11:08:56 AM » |
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to its claim that the Antichrist is one man (rather than a group of people), etc. just doesn't coincide with what the Scriptures teach. I've never heard that the antichrist is more than one man. |
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murlough23
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2005, 01:19:51 PM » |
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He is correct in a way, because the whole LEFT BEHIND series is based on a 200 year old theory of a pre-trib rapture that is not held by most denominations today nor by most scholars.
It is the 'Christian fad' of the moment, and many fall pray to it's attraction, (after all, it is much more comforting to think we will be whisked off the earth during the tribulation, than to go through it. Never mind that ALL the first apostles and many Christians in the past and even today in other countries have died for Christ in horrifying ways.)
People feel that they are special because they may be alive during the return of Christ and show therefore not suffer anything for the cause of Christ. This makes me laugh because American Christians in general have never gone through much tribulation anyway and any little thing, like trying to take prayer out of schools, makes them think they are being persecuted.
When you are thrown in jail for having a Bible, as happens in some countries now around the world and you are tortured and mutilated, THAT'S what persecution is. FREAKIN. A. MEN. I would add that just because something's a fad doesn't automatically make it wrong (though it does make it an easy target for lamthingyery). But quite frankly, I'm getting tired of all the rapture hype, and I don't think we know enough to conclusively state that we are living close to the End Times. My Bible says that no man knows the day or the hour. What's more important to me is that regardless of when Christ comes back and the world ends, my world will end sooner or later. I will run out of time, and I don't need this End Times business to motivate me to get my life straight. I need to do that regardless. And I'm tired of this rapture stuff getting used as a guilt motivator to make people do stuff. The revenge fantasies and martyr complexes are kind of annoying, too. |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2005, 01:58:28 PM » |
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I've never heard that the antichrist is more than one man. Yeah, I think I missed that memo too. He is correct in a way, because the whole LEFT BEHIND series is based on a 200 year old theory of a pre-trib rapture that is not held by most denominations today nor by most scholars.
It is the 'Christian fad' of the moment, and many fall pray to it's attraction, (after all, it is much more comforting to think we will be whisked off the earth during the tribulation, than to go through it. Never mind that ALL the first apostles and many Christians in the past and even today in other countries have died for Christ in horrifying ways.)
People feel that they are special because they may be alive during the return of Christ and show therefore not suffer anything for the cause of Christ. This makes me laugh because American Christians in general have never gone through much tribulation anyway and any little thing, like trying to take prayer out of schools, makes them think they are being persecuted.
When you are thrown in jail for having a Bible, as happens in some countries now around the world and you are tortured and mutilated, THAT'S what persecution is. Your arguments against the LB series are valid, but again I don't see how that makes it porn. It just makes it wrong. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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murlough23
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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2005, 02:11:32 PM » |
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I think it could be porn in the sense that people are fascinated by the notion of God obliterating the world and all of the "bad people" in it. I mean, the Bible says that these violent and horrific things will happen, but we're not supposed to rejoice in the destruction of human lives, and I do think it's a bit pornographic to be obsessed with depicting those horrific events. Using it as a scare tactic to convert people doesn't justify it. I think a lot of people are reading it for the same reason other people might read horror novels.
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Josh
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2005, 02:16:15 PM » |
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I've never heard that the antichrist is more than one man. That's because many pholks tend to forget that the book of Revelation is highly metaphorical. So yes, it does refer to the Antichrist as if he is a lone man, but it's meant to by symbolic of a large body of non-believers. This is never actually stated in Revelation, but John does mention it in his first short epistle. |
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Brenden
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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2005, 02:28:07 PM » |
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2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the anti-christ.
That verse does seems to say the antichrist will be a group of non-believers.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2005, 02:41:40 PM » |
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Quick note for those who struggle with counting: 2 John is John's second short epistle (Josh was probably referring to 1 John 18-27, though the passage in 2 John is also relevant).
This discussion is a bit off-topic but worthwhile, so I'll indulge. Revelations refers to two beasts, one of which I believe is interpreted as the antichrist (though that word is not actually used in Revelations). I can see few interpretations of that being any more than one being, and though I suppose it could be a group it would probably be led by a single person. This would be what is commonly known as THE antichrist, as opposed to the generic antichrists, i.e. those who oppose the teachings of the disciples of Christ and his followers.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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PaulDA
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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2005, 02:49:49 PM » |
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I've never heard that the antichrist is more than one man. Yeah, I think I missed that memo too. He is correct in a way, because the whole LEFT BEHIND series is based on a 200 year old theory of a pre-trib rapture that is not held by most denominations today nor by most scholars.
It is the 'Christian fad' of the moment, and many fall pray to it's attraction, (after all, it is much more comforting to think we will be whisked off the earth during the tribulation, than to go through it. Never mind that ALL the first apostles and many Christians in the past and even today in other countries have died for Christ in horrifying ways.)
People feel that they are special because they may be alive during the return of Christ and show therefore not suffer anything for the cause of Christ. This makes me laugh because American Christians in general have never gone through much tribulation anyway and any little thing, like trying to take prayer out of schools, makes them think they are being persecuted.
When you are thrown in jail for having a Bible, as happens in some countries now around the world and you are tortured and mutilated, THAT'S what persecution is. Your arguments against the LB series are valid, but again I don't see how that makes it porn. It just makes it wrong. I'm not really calling it porn either, but I was thinking maybe he thought that it is equivalent to something as dangerous and hurtful as porn. |
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PaulDA
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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2005, 02:51:35 PM » |
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FREAKIN. A. MEN.
I would add that just because something's a fad doesn't automatically make it wrong (though it does make it an easy target for lamthingyery). Yes, that doesn't make it automatically wrong. I agree with you. It is my opinion that the post trib rapture seems more in line with the Bible, but in truth I really don't know and I don't believe anyone really will until Jesus comes back. |
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Brenden
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2005, 02:53:06 PM » |
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Quick note for those who struggle with counting: 2 John is John's second short epistle (Josh was probably referring to 1 John 18-27, though the passage in 2 John is also relevant).
This discussion is a bit off-topic but worthwhile, so I'll indulge. Revelations refers to two beasts, one of which I believe is interpreted as the antichrist (though that word is not actually used in Revelations). I can see few interpretations of that being any more than one being, and though I suppose it could be a group it would probably be led by a single person. This would be what is commonly known as THE antichrist, as opposed to the generic antichrists, i.e. those who oppose the teachings of the disciples of Christ and his followers. 1st John has more than one chapter, so when he said "short episitle" instead of just "epistle", I assumed he meant 2nd John. |
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Brenden
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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2005, 02:53:47 PM » |
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FREAKIN. A. MEN.
I would add that just because something's a fad doesn't automatically make it wrong (though it does make it an easy target for lamthingyery). Yes, that doesn't make it automatically wrong. I agree with you. It is my opinion that the post trib rapture seems more in line with the Bible, but in truth I really don't know and I don't believe anyone really will until Jesus comes back. And does it really matter anyway? |
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murlough23
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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2005, 03:02:54 PM » |
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It is my opinion that the post trib rapture seems more in line with the Bible, but in truth I really don't know and I don't believe anyone really will until Jesus comes back. Sure. I mean, I don't think it's wrong for scholars and laymen alike to look into this and want to know more about it. However, when I see people obsessed with it (my own mother was for a time; not sure if she still is, but I know she grew bored with the Left Behind novels and stopped reading them), and churches/Christian universities being divisive over it, that's when I start to think that man is getting a little bit too haughty regarding the thinks we think we can know about the End Times. Not that I'm posing this as a theologically correct idea, but wouldn't it just beat all if the whole thing was metaphorical and it was really referring to the end of each person's individual world, and how they would face trails and tribulations and antichrists and so forth? (Not really a likely interpretation, but in some senses, it is true, because even if the End Times isn't for another thousand years, the principles laid out in Revelation still apply to me. I should still live my life like I'm not guaranteed another day.) |
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PaulDA
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2005, 03:58:07 PM » |
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FREAKIN. A. MEN.
I would add that just because something's a fad doesn't automatically make it wrong (though it does make it an easy target for lamthingyery). Yes, that doesn't make it automatically wrong. I agree with you. It is my opinion that the post trib rapture seems more in line with the Bible, but in truth I really don't know and I don't believe anyone really will until Jesus comes back. And does it really matter anyway? It does matter because if people are teaching Christians will be whisked away and then all of a sudden when they are still here, . their moral will be badly shaken. I think every Christian should just prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ and whatever comes along with it. If churches have to teach something, they should just present the different points of view and say they don't really know. |
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« Last Edit: April 12, 2005, 03:58:58 PM by PaulDA »
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Vlad!
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2005, 04:19:58 PM » |
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If churches have to teach something, they should just present the different points of view and say they don't really know. I completely agree. For points like this which are, honestly, minor doctrinal areas and which we don't really know the answer, giving what we do know and letting people decide for themselves is the best solution. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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murlough23
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« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2005, 05:26:55 PM » |
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I think every Christian should just prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ and whatever comes along with it. Right, and my point is that the coming of Jesus Christ is going to be a lot sooner for me if I die tomorrow. As far as I'm concerned, Jesus Christ will have come, I'll be judged, and there'll be no time to go back and change things. Because none of us are guaranteed tomorrow, I think that's more than enough motivation to get our lives right. It's much more sensational to say, "Get your lives right because Jesus is coming back soon", but it's kind of irrelevant - one way or another, life is short and there are no guarantees. I mean, what do End Times fanatics think of people 1000 years ago? If people now are so sure we're in the last days, then people back then who studied the same stuff and came to the same conclusions could have said, "Hey guys, Jesus isn't coming back any time soon, so we can screw around all we want!" (Actually, I think there was some End Times hysteria around 1000 A.D., as there has been at several significant points in history that Christians thought the Bible pointed to, but obviously these were all cases of forcing the evidence to fit the patterns we wanted to see, because hey, the world's still here and nobody's been raptured that we know of.) |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2005, 05:40:48 PM » |
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...the world's still here and nobody's been raptured that we know of. Actually... |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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murlough23
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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2005, 05:50:53 PM » |
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Well, at least no planes fell out of the sky.
Yet.
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PaulDA
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« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2005, 06:30:49 PM » |
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...the world's still here and nobody's been raptured that we know of. Actually.....when you didn't show up at CMC for the first week or so, I kinda wondered..... |
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murlough23
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« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2005, 06:36:08 PM » |
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Josh
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« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2005, 08:33:39 PM » |
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I love what Slacktivist has to say about Left Behind. |
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danny316
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« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2005, 11:07:47 PM » |
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If churches have to teach something, they should just present the different points of view and say they don't really know. I agree completely. To be honest, that's part of why I think some of the "emergent" people have got it right - it's better to leave the questions open and try to discover God through the different points of view than it is to just have answers. I've found that people who think of minor theological points that way tend to lack the self-righteousness that scares many away from Christianity. "You need questions, forget about the answers - do you really wanna die this way?" Sorry, I couldn't resist. But anyway, that is ultimately my gripe with Left Behind - it speculates and teaches a fact based on just one viewpoint. At least with porn, we know what's under those clothes, with this, we're really playing with fire, and risking blasphemy if we say something that's too far off. |
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« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 11:08:55 PM by danny316 »
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Someday, Dan will make a site with nothing but pictures of amusing stolen avatars.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2005, 11:51:36 PM » |
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But anyway, that is ultimately my gripe with Left Behind - it speculates and teaches a fact based on just one viewpoint. At least with porn, we know what's under those clothes, with this, we're really playing with fire, and risking blasphemy if we say something that's too far off. Well, if you're writing fiction--and for all its faults Left Behind never claims to be more than fiction--you do have to make a choice at some point about how things are going to be in your fictional world, especially if it's something crucial to the storyline. After all, LB just could not exist without taking a pre-trib worldview. This doesn't really bother me too much--even if many scholars disagree, I've certainly suspended my disbelief a lot further than that. And after all, we really don't know for sure how it will be. In the Narnia thread we're not accusing Lewis of blasphemy for incorporating pagan mythology into his works. I don't see why L&J should be more culpable in that regard. On one hand, you're saying that the church should leave things open to let people explore the grey areas on their own--something I certainly agree with. But on the other, you're accusing these people of blasphemy or borderline blasphemy fof essentially forming their own opinion and then using it as a basis for a fictional story. I'm not trying to defend the LB books as good literature. The little I've read, mostly excerpts in stuff linked from this thread, seems like poorly-written consumer fiction marketed to the Christian who wants vicarious revenge on the secular world. But I don't think they constitute either blasphemy or pornography. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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danny316
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« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2005, 12:22:06 AM » |
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Well, if you're writing fiction--and for all its faults Left Behind never claims to be more than fiction--you do have to make a choice at some point about how things are going to be in your fictional world, especially if it's something crucial to the storyline. Very true, but I don't think it's made clear that LB is fiction. People hear that it's got some level of biblical basis and they take it all too seriously. After all, LB just could not exist without taking a pre-trib worldview. This doesn't really bother me too much--even if many scholars disagree, I've certainly suspended my disbelief a lot further than that. And after all, we really don't know for sure how it will be.
In the Narnia thread we're not accusing Lewis of blasphemy for incorporating pagan mythology into his works. I don't see why L&J should be more culpable in that regard. Although I haven't finished the series, to my knowledge Narnia doesn't attempt to speculate at what God will do in the future. I don't think it's wrong to speculate, but when saying things about God that you don't have a concrete basis for, you do risk going too far. I don't mean to accuse as much as to say that it's easy to foul up. On one hand, you're saying that the church should leave things open to let people explore the grey areas on their own--something I certainly agree with. But on the other, you're accusing these people of blasphemy or borderline blasphemy for essentially forming their own opinion and then using it as a basis for a fictional story.
Bah, I must have misworded something in my last post. I don't mean to say that it's blasphemous, I'm just saying that you could end up going too far when you try to attribute words and actions to God that may or may not be accurate. (While we're on that topic, why don't we pick on Christian bands for trying to sing from God's perspective sometimes? I'm not entirely sure that that's a good idea either.) I'm not trying to defend the LB books as good literature. The little I've read, mostly excerpts in stuff linked from this thread, seems like poorly-written consumer fiction marketed to the Christian who wants vicarious revenge on the secular world. But I don't think they constitute either blasphemy or pornography. Vicarious revenge on the secular world? That's worse than I thought. I'd like to get around to checking the books out sometime but right now I'm planning on finishing Narnia first. |
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« Last Edit: April 15, 2005, 12:22:12 AM by danny316 »
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murlough23
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« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2005, 12:50:11 AM » |
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Kind of off-topic, but regarding writing songs from God's point of view - Sometimes Christians say "God spoke to me", and I'm sometimes skeptical as to whether God really said it or they just hear what they want to hear. However, I've had my own times when I've written down a "conversation with God" of sorts in my journal. It's really just my idea of what God would say to me based on the truth of who God is. Not something I'm often in the frame of mind to do, but I do have a conscience and a sense of what God thinks of my deeds. So there are times when I know more or less what God would have to say to me on a certain subject - usually it amounts to something like, "I love you, and hey, stop doing that."
NP: "Time Enough for Tears", The Corrs
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Josh
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« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2005, 02:17:44 PM » |
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Heh... I got a kick out of this. Here's the publisher's description of the new Left Behind prequels, straight from the Left Behind Web site: Marilena Carpathia has only one dream: to be a mother. So when a mysterious clairvoyant promises the fulfillment of this dream, Marilena does not hesitate. Through genetic engineering and the power of the prince of darkness himself, Marilena is about to become a chosen vessel, one who will unknowingly give birth to the greatest evil the world has ever known.
Halfway around the world, God's plans are subtly being carried out too. Young Ray Steele is determined to avoid one day taking over the family business. Instead, Ray sets his heart on becoming a pilot....
Soon Carpathia's and Steele's lives will intersect. And good and evil will clash in an explosion that will shake the world.
Wow. I am... wow.  |
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murlough23
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« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2005, 02:25:29 PM » |
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Left Behind Episode I: The Phantom Heresy.
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Josh
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« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2005, 08:25:52 PM » |
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Left Behind Episode I: The Phantom Heresy. Left Behind Episodes II-XXV: Attack of the Clones. |
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murlough23
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« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2005, 08:31:17 PM » |
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Left Behind Episode XXVI: Just Blow Up the G.D. Planet Already!
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danny316
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« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2005, 12:23:37 AM » |
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Episode XXVII: Nope, not this time either.
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Someday, Dan will make a site with nothing but pictures of amusing stolen avatars.
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