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standman87
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« on: August 01, 2003, 10:25:57 PM » |
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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bloop
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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2003, 12:24:11 AM » |
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Unfortunately, my answer is unlikely to satisfy you, but it is honest: I don't know. I don't know if the Bible, as we have it, is inerrant and infallible...it makes for a good debate.
You're hung up on the Job thing: I don't know if it's a story, like a parable, told to make a point or if it's literal. Why would I? I wasn't alive at the time. I'm not entirely contrary to the idea that it is either one because neither would negate the truth that it contains.
"All scripture is written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit." It's circular reasoning to say that this is good proof of the statement if it's self-referential. It's actually an established logical fallacy. If it is or isn't, I don't necessarily know which of the 66 or so books he's talking about. I don't think there is good proof for the statement because I haven't seen it, after talking to some very intelligent amateur apologists (I'm a mathematician so proof to me needs to be pretty air-tight). So, the best answer remains "I don't know."
This isn't something that you're going to get the "correct" answer on a poll of the population anyway because there will be a minority opinion that could still be correct.
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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BigBird
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2003, 12:57:03 AM » |
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um, yeah i was being sarcastic, i think it's dumb to think that any part of the bible is untrue(with the parable exceptions), i agree with your position!
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DvChWi
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2003, 05:24:39 PM » |
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Yes, the Bible is most definately 100% true. How can we know this? Where is the proof? There is none, actually. I accept the truth of the Bible on faith. If we could accept Christ by faith, why can't we accept the Bible the same way? If some parts of the Bible are wrong, then how do we know what is right? If you believe only parts of the Bible are right, then you are free to pick and choose your beliefs, according to your idea, rather than God's. I believe this is wrong.
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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BigBird
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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2003, 07:08:02 PM » |
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well said
i do think that there could be problems with translations and stuff, but since i can't know, i try to accept everything in the Bible as truth...
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Josh
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2003, 07:09:17 PM » |
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I wonder about translation problems, as well, though I believe that all of God's Word is true, and all of the Bible is God's Word.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2003, 08:18:03 PM » |
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Stan, once again you completely misunderstand my point. Also, your two choices are seriously flawed--how do you define true? I believe that the Bible is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness. I believe that, IF a book such as Job is intended to be a fable God has it in there for a reason. I, like bloop, don't know if stories such as the creation story are 100% true or merely an allegory or oral tradition, but the POINTS and APPLICATIONS that can be derived from such stories are still valid!
I'm sure my limited agnosticism is abhorrent to all you who (like my friend Stan) tend more towards fundamentalism. I'm sorry. I honestly wish I could be as certain as you.
I would like to say that I have faith in the majority of the Bible. Maybe, as you say, questioning one part is questioning it all. But this is how I feel.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2003, 08:38:55 PM » |
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"Faith, without trouble or fighting, is a suspicious faith; for true faith is a fighting, wrestling faith." - Ralph Erskine
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Vlad!
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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2003, 08:40:47 PM » |
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Good words, Josh, thanks. I appreciate you phorum people for putting up (more or less) with some of my wrestling on this issue.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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standman87
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2003, 08:59:29 PM » |
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Yes, the Bible is most definately 100% true. How can we know this? Where is the proof? There is none, actually. I accept the truth of the Bible on faith. If we could accept Christ by faith, why can't we accept the Bible the same way? If some parts of the Bible are wrong, then how do we know what is right? If you believe only parts of the Bible are right, then you are free to pick and choose your beliefs, according to your idea, rather than God's. I believe this is wrong. Well said: It is all about faith. Bloop: This isn't something that you're going to get the "correct" answer on a poll of the population anyway because there will be a minority opinion that could still be correct. I have my own opinion of which is right and I don't plan on changing it by the poll results. The point of the poll is for me to get an idea of what everyone else believes. Vlad!, I don't think I misunderstand you; you are just doubting whether stuff said in the Bible really happened or whether it was an allegory. My attitude is not one of hate, but mostly shock. It is deffinitely 'ok' for you and Bloop to have doubts or differing ideas but I'm shocked that you have them. I know this is how you feel and I can't change it, but neverless it is going to harder to talk with you on issues of faith. No offense to your point-of-you but as you said it ('questioning one part is questioning it all') might leave you more on the iffy side of things when it comes to taking a stand for the Christian faith. Maybe I'm just being harshly stubborn, almost forcing my view to the forefront, but I thought for sure this was the one thing that we all agreed on. |
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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standman87
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2003, 09:03:25 PM » |
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"Faith, without trouble or fighting, is a suspicious faith; for true faith is a fighting, wrestling faith." - Ralph Erskine Nice quote, Josh. But faith without a foundation, isn't a faith. To me, God and His Word is the foundation of my faith. And yes - OH yes!, I struggle but I do not let that hinder my ability to witness, nor do I let doubting consume my full attention. |
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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Vlad!
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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2003, 09:06:25 PM » |
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Stan, when you quote scripture (and when I quoe scriptute) I accept it as the word of God. It (and ALL of it, including Jesus' parables, the book of Job, and all of Genesis) is worthy of being used for teaching and for debate. I just question the function of some books. As another example, I think Song of Solomon speaks about physical love for a woman but also is an allegory regarding Christ's love for us, the Church, His bride. This doesn't make SoS less relevant; in fact, it makes it MORE so.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Imladris
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2003, 09:28:45 PM » |
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I realize that by now, there is little left for me to say.
I accept that the Bible is the completely true written word of GOD, except where otherwise specified.
I think it fair to say that the portions of the Bible that are investigable have been consistent with the findings of outside sources.
I understand that my decision to believe all of the Bible is based upon my desire for it to be true, because , of course, not everything in it is verifiable, but it does at least make sense.
~Imladris~
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leinad
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2003, 02:33:44 PM » |
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Just bringing this up (mods can delete this post.)
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« Last Edit: September 28, 2003, 02:38:42 PM by leinad »
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Masta_K
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2003, 04:07:30 PM » |
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"All scripture is written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit." It's circular reasoning to say that this is good proof of the statement if it's self-referential. It's actually an established logical fallacy. bloop: very true. where does proof of the validity of the Bible lie? (contrary to what DvChWi said, it is there... sort of -- read on) it lies only in logic. if Jehovah is God, and he wrote the Bible, it is only possible that it is all true. God produces truth and nothing but. now at this point one might arise a Q concerning fables/parables/allegories/analogies/etc. did God mean everything LITERALLY? that is a whole new question, one that a debate about would not be so shocking. it seems to me that standman87 and Vlad! have a confusion of terms... it looks like the former is speaking about the truth of the Bible as a whole and its meanings, and the latter about the literal truth of every separate piece of literature contained therein. but in summary, it is illogical for a christian to not accept any or all of the Bible.  |
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I AM BATMAN. |
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GusX:
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2003, 11:02:03 PM » |
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You all seem like logical people who enjoy proving everything - search up some books by c.s. lewis - he strugled with alot of the same things i read here... believe in the Bible ? - read it anyway - my fav book is .. screwtape letters...
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But of course, I could be wrong... [ But I doubt it. ]
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Poll
