Where have all the music critics gone?

[Josh]

I ask you.

[danny316]

Can they have gone somewhere if they were never here to start with?

I like somewherecold a bit myself, but they do focus a bit more on the atmospheric stuff that I'm a real sucker for. I like to think I'm in the same class of reviewers, but I don't review nearly enough stuff to count (and most of my reviews are concerts and not albums anyway). I've noticed a few smaller epinions reviewers that try to do a bit of this as well (Swifferk comes to mind, and our own eatahouse isn't all bad either).

Besides those, I go to "secular" critics and the people you mentioned for reviews. I think we'll see more kids like myself and eatahouse trying to expand into the more obscure (read: less safe) stuff and write about it. Between all of us here and all the people at the Northern board (and a few people I've seen on artist-specific boards) that are into that type of music, we have more than enough people who'd like to spread the word about this kind of stuff and really talk about it. We just don't usually have time to write real reviews.

If I could pick anyone to give time to start writing more reviews, I'd pick bloop and Nakedprey. Both of them know what they're talking about, and I like the few reviews (and the lists) that I've seen each of them do.  

[BecauseEdwardISEdward]

[danny316]

Tollbooth is about the only one I can think of that reviews non-CCM albums with any amount of credibility.

D'oh, I forgot about them. Some of their reviewers are much better than others, but on a whole I usually find the site fairly helpful.

[murlough23]

[bloop]

[Tom]

[Josh]

Hey, I like mur's reviews too, for the most part, but "always" is almost always a bad word to use.

Perhaps, but, at the moment, I can't think of any of his reviews that HAVEN'T been models of intelligence and fairness, so I feel pretty confident in my appraisal of his body of work at the moment.

So, does anyone have any brainy ideas for how we can get more Christian thinkers to start writing these kinds of deep, critical music reviews?

[murlough23]

Perhaps, but, at the moment, I can't think of any of his reviews that HAVEN'T been models of intelligence and fairness, so I feel pretty confident in my appraisal of his body of work at the moment.

It would be rather arrogant of me to claim I was being intelligent and fair in every instance. Sometimes I do a positive write-up of a guilty pleasure and I'm crap out of luck when it comes to actually articulating why I like it so much. And sometimes I kick the crap out of an album just because I can. I'll admit it; it's fun.

[RedcoatJones]

[bdg13disciple]

i have some thoughts about this issue, but i wanna take a little more time to put them together...

for those of you who do care what i think about it...

peace... love... bdg...

[danny316]

So, does anyone have any brainy ideas for how we can get more Christian thinkers to start writing these kinds of deep, critical music reviews?

Not really. I guess those of us here who ask everyone reading the phorum (or whatever other messageboard) what they think are doing a little, but that's not really much. Most people don't have places to post reviews and don't realize that truly any idiot can do it. I think if we could encourage more discussion of this type of thing, it'd lead to more people getting inspired. The only problem I see with this is when someone has a good comment and posts it on a message board, and then it gets around to other reviews (not that I mind, but I was rather entertained when a comment I made about the latest U2 album on CMC was sent to me in an Epinions thing because Murlough had made a reference to it and in a mailing list because someone else thought it was quoteworthy. It's really not that important to me, but it's interesting how stuff like that can happen with that idea)

Also, I think we should get more people into the whole "music blog" thing. Mp3 blogs are great ways to share about music even if they don't usually have much commentary. I've noticed that Xanga in particular is made for music commentary, the way it shows album covers and links to Amazon so people can buy CDs. I've been trying to encourage a few of my friends to help beef up my music blog as well, since I think a community blog about music could be a real hoot.

Besides that, I'm stumped.
 

[murlough23]

Most people don't have places to post reviews and don't realize that truly any idiot can do it.

What, the vast number of idiots already doing it hasn't tipped them off?

not that I mind, but I was rather entertained when a comment I made about the latest U2 album on CMC was sent to me in an Epinions thing because Murlough had made a reference to it and in a mailing list because someone else thought it was quoteworthy.

What comment was that? I'm a bit confused as to the order of these events - did I inadvertently steal a quote from you, or are you saying one of my quotes made the rounds and got back to you in a roundabout manner, or... ?

[danny316]

What comment was that? I'm a bit confused as to the order of these events - did I inadvertently steal a quote from you, or are you saying one of my quotes made the rounds and got back to you in a roundabout manner, or... ?

Remember my comment about how U2's "All Because of You" was the best song Audio Adrenaline never wrote? You made a reference to it in your U2 review before I got around to posting mine. I really don't mind, I think it's kind of cool because I don't think I'd see people bringing my comment back up if it was total crap. I have my Epinions account set up to e-mail me whenever anyone in my web of trust posts a new review, so I had your review (with the reference to my comment in it) in my e-mail box before I had finished writing mine. Someone else on the Sixpence mailing list mentioned hearing my comment on CMC around the same time.

I still think it's a good idea for people who talk about music on messageboards anyway to write reviews, but stuff like this can happen and I can see how that would bother some people.

 

[murlough23]

I did say that it was something a friend said, right? I hope I didn't make it look like something I made up on my own.

Anyway, assuming plagiarism of others' ideas isn't at play, why would this be an issue? "My friend said such-and-such" is just an anecdote, no biggie, right?

[danny316]

I did say that it was something a friend said, right? I hope I didn't make it look like something I made up on my own.

Anyway, assuming plagiarism of others' ideas isn't at play, why would this be an issue? "My friend said such-and-such" is just an anecdote, no biggie, right?

Yeah, and yeah, I agree. It's not an issue (to me, anyway), but I can see why some people would be frustrated about that. I was just giving that as a possible reason why some people who like to talk about music on messageboards might not be too fond of other messageboarders reviewing music.  

[murlough23]

Well, if you think your comments are that brilliant and you're worried about someone else using 'em, you should keep 'em to yourself, shouldn't you?

(Not talking to "you" specifically; I'm just saying that if someone was actually worried about this, they should know to keep their mouth shut.)

[bdg13disciple]

[murlough23]

thanks, by the way, for the dig about not being as intelligent or insightful as the mainstream journalists (though, have you read many of them lately?) or Russ and Andree... good for them, they've apppeased you... hooray... i'll take the high road and let that comment go without a snide retort...

Whoops! Too late!

and murlough, that magnetic poetry comment in your strong tower review... i saw that...

Glad you saw it, but uh... how is that relevant?

NP: "Everything Changes", Iona feat. Maire Brennan

[bloop]

[Josh]

BDG, your comments sound like the words of someone who has just been personally attacked. They also sound like they're directed at an entirely different article.

Once again, we begin with an assumption... "everything inside the realm of CCM is boring, trite and worthless - everything outside these walls, free, lively, innovative, and worth talking about"... be that as it may in some minds, you're as guilty of close-minded exclusivity as those on the other side of the coin...

No indeed. I say several times that we need music critics who are willing to lift up excellent and praiseworthy music; never do I make the assertion that such music only exists outside CCM Land, or that non-CCM is uniformly good. Your criticism is entirely unfounded.

thanks, by the way, for the dig about not being as intelligent or insightful as the mainstream journalists (though, have you read many of them lately?) or Russ and Andree... good for them, they've apppeased you... hooray... i'll take the high road and let that comment go without a snide retort...

Oh, please. Now who's being pompous? Just because I said that most CCM journalists are lousy and didn't mention your name as a specific exceptionthat doesn't mean that I'm taking a swipe at you. Russ and Andree were two EXAMPLES, not the only examples!

then another dig... ooh... thanks... you think maybe a monkey, trained or untrained, could write my reviews for next week? i'm kinda busy with life...

Believe it or not, my entire universe does not revolve around you. Not everything here is a direct reference to you. (Though if you're so busy with life that you can't take the time to pursue excellence in your writing-- which is YOUR implication, not mine-- then perhaps you shouldn't write at all?)

ah, see there's your dilemma... you assume that if a Christian publication writes about secular art, then, by default, their audience expands to include primarily secular... well how about that?... maybe if CCM Magazine started covering Nick Cave and Sam Phillips, - who, by way of a sidenote i'll mention that a vast majority of secular music fans wouldn't recognize either - then they'd be sold high and large at B&N's everywhere... that's simply not the case... CCM would still be selling primarily in Christian book stores and read primarily by Christians...

You seem to have confused your weak rant about my article with your weak rant about another article, because this just doesn't pertain to what I wrote at all. (Or did you actually bother to read it?)

[bdg13disciple]

Glad you saw it, but uh... how is that relevant?

following your discussion with danny...
it was interestingly posted about a week after my sonicflood review which compared the album to magnetic poetry...


peace... love... bdg...

[bdg13disciple]

[bloop]

i'm off again... Josh, i'll address your points, tomorrow sometime...

I'm more interested in this than anything since it is, after all, his piece.  I could reply to a few things there, but it's a little late and I need sleep.  Anyway, I don't think that Josh intended to really say anything about you as a music critic, even if a particular sentence, strictly interpreted, is a bit too exclusive.  I think you're likely misinterpreting quite a bit of what Josh had to say, about CCM critics and CCM music alike.  Josh may not have been precise as you like in language; however, I don't think it's the kind of mini-essay that requires such care.  It's usually best to assume that people aren't out to get you if things are unclear.

[murlough23]

following your discussion with danny...
it was interestingly posted about a week after my sonicflood review which compared the album to magnetic poetry...

I have magnetic poetry on my fridge, and I may have applied the comment to worship music before, or at least thought it. I don't tend to read CMC reviews immediately when they come out any more, unless something is releasing that week that I'm dying to hear your thoughts on (and even then, it could be the next week or later before the review shows up - not a criticism of you, that's just the way it goes sometimes). Since I left the CMC boards, I don't think to check the CMC home page nearly as often as I used to.

[murlough23]

[bdg13disciple]

[bdg13disciple]

mur...

CCM Cheerleaders sure, there are many... Josh's implication is that CCM reviewers aren't reaching beyond the bubble because we're lazy and/or untalented and we'd prefer to simply play the role of a cheerleader...

engaging culture my point is that Josh has simply created his own niche and that he challanging the CCM niche with his preferred niche... speck in the eye or plank...

CMC  that's a dead horse, i was simply pointing out that even the best intentions don't always work out as planned...

outsider's bias that's not what i said at all... i'm sure he honestly enjoys the music he listens to, and i'm sure that it's not because he wants to find a fringe to exist on... my point is that he seems more interested in creating a fellowship to validate his opinion rather than to engage the culture in a dialogue... (though he seems to have done just fine creating that environment here)

arrogant desire to see my name in lights i have a healthy ego, no question there, i wouldn't write if i didn't think my thoughts were worth sharing... i will say that if i was concerned about seeing my name in lights, Reveal wouldn't be one of my targets...

one of many i review primarily CCM releases, there are many others who also review primarily CCM releases... how is that hard to understand?  i don't really read reviews so i'm not about to throw any names out there...

little kiddie pools that's my point exactly... "one person can only do so much"... i already said that i don't agree with pre-defined boundaries... i cover what i get paid to cover... i have a bit of say in that... but i write for an audience that expects to hear about the latest audio adrenaline and mercyme releases... should your desires be granted precedence over theirs?

dirty dirty i already mentioned that i'm not in the group that believes that anything beyond the fence is trash... i'm not arguing that point...

bold accusation it's not an accusation at all... it's an observation... how many sermons have been based around Harry Potter or The DaVinci Code?  now how many of those were simply examples of a pastor stretching things to suit their needs?  a majority... it's a risk that we all run whenever we effort to spiritualize everything...

peace... love... bdg...

 

[murlough23]

[Josh]

[murlough23]

Anyway, I'm sorry you got your toes stepped on, but I think the words murlough and bloop have spoken in my defense make it clear that you are, in fact, way off base here.

More than two people stating their agreement in disagreeing with another person... I believe that's better known as "ganging up". Or at least, that's how it's usually perceived.

NP: "He (Frail Version)", Jars of Clay

[Josh]

Well, yeah, I guess we ARE ganging up on BDG, but it's certainly not out of a lack of respect for him or any kind of dislike of him.  

[murlough23]

Well, yeah, I guess we ARE ganging up on BDG, but it's certainly not out of a lack of respect for him or any kind of dislike of him.

I know, I was just saying that's how it'll most likely be perceived, because it's easier to claim that than to have a rational discussion with like three people at once who disagree with you.

[bloop]

Never have I claimed to NOT have a slant against CCM. Anyone who has read my writing at all knows where I stand regarding CCM. What I fail to see here is... um, your point.

While, indeed, you [rightly] have a bias against CCM, there are those artists and albums within CCM that are worthwhile, and you do tend to recognize those.  The record says that loud and clear, and you'd do well in this thread to remember that, I think.

[Josh]

While, indeed, you [rightly] have a bias against CCM, there are those artists and albums within CCM that are worthwhile, and you do tend to recognize those.  The record says that loud and clear, and you'd do well in this thread to remember that, I think.

Indeed, there are some exceptions, and I think I acknowledge that; after all, you WILL find a handful of CCM albums reviewed at Reveal.

[murlough23]

Bias against CCM - are we sure that this is what Josh has? I guess only he can answer that. I guess he and I have something in common in that we greet just about anything new coming from a CCM label with a healthy amount of skepticism, because of the boundaries imposed on most artists on major CCM labels. However, there are some established artists for whom this does not seem to apply, either because they're on smaller labels or independent (though then it's nebulous as to whether they're really part of the CCM scene or not), or because they have proven track records such that the skepticism isn't warranted because we've enjoyed their work and found it to be artfully made before.

Josh could come up with CCM albums that are well-made and even challenging, as could I, and we could both also come up with obscure "secular" albums that are not very artfully made or challenging. However, I don't think the bias is saying "All CCM is commercial cheerleading non-artistic crap and all of the mainstream/secular music I've explored is excellent", but I'd gather that Josh's experience with CCM of late has been far more negative than positive, and he probably doesn't spend as much time on the negative he finds in the mainstream world because most Christians already take it for granted that there's a lot of crap out there and his main concern seems to be highlighting the good stuff that he comes across. Does he over-generalize occasionally? I guess we can all be guilty of that, but I don't think he intends to do so. Still, when faced with a new album by an artist under a constraint by a major label to deliver to the lowest common denominator of a Christian audience, and a new album with no such constraints by an artist who does seek to make faith-informed music, which is more likely to be a disappointment?

[bloop]

A healthy skepticism is, by definition, a form of bias.  Hence the reason I said "rightly".

[Josh]

Just got this message from one of my longtime readers:

Ok, Josh, I just read your recent post and you're freaking me out!  The reason
why:  yesterday I visited the CT website to see if you had any reviews there yet
(by the way, congrats on the new position!).  I read some movie reviews, looked
at their Best Movies of 2004 list.  Then I decided to see what they had in the
music review section.  After perusing that site, I thought to myself, "Why?  Why
can a Christian publication like this review all types of movies, even write a
provocative article on Christians and horror movies, but they just don't get it
when it comes to music?"  I was sorely disappointed in their Best Music of 2004
list.  Only one (Buddy Miller) was an artist who did not record on a Christian
label.  Where was Sam, U2, Nick Cave?  Did these reviewers not listen to
anything else but CCM?  Are Christians still in the dark ages when it comes to
music?"  I wanted to vent my feelings and decided that the best person to send
an email to would be Mr. Hurst.  Well, I got so busy at work that I didn't get a
chance yesterday to dash off a note.  Then I logged into your site today and it
totally blew me away!  You must have read my mind.  I tell you, I am so grateful
that God is raising up someone like you who is able to review a wide variety of
things with a Christian-perspective.  You asked where the others were?  I think
they're out there, Josh; they just haven't been "loosed" yet from the bindings
that have been wrapped around their brains for too many years or they aren't old
enough yet (perhaps God is raising up some young men/women to join your ranks).
Anyway, I think it's time for a change, and hopefully it will happen soon.  For
me, music that challenges me in my thinking about God/life/the world is far more
effective than music that tells me how to think.  That's why I hardly ever
listen to CCM anymore.  Sam's latest inspired me so much that I wrote some
lyrics, had a friend put it to music and record it on a CD, and gave it to her
when I saw her last Dec.  So not to bore you with the whole thing, the chorus
went:  "I'm losing and I'm finding.  I'm hurting and I'm healing.  And the light
that shines upon me is both blinding and revealing."  When I find someone like
Sam, U2, OtR or whomever being able to be honest about pain/joy/loss/gain in the
light of our Father, I get a closer glimpse of our Father.  I pray the blinders
that have been on people for too long will fall off, and they'll be able to
"see" what God has been doing, not only in music or movies, but in all area of
art.

[danny316]

Hey, go easy on bdg. If he wants to come out hurling mud and saying that we shouldn't be encouraging intelligent discussion....don't try to force him into anything. When mud's being thrown around over whether or not we even should be trying to explore new things - things quickly become muddy and irritating. There is nothing of value that can come from throwing crap around and saying that we shouldn't be discussing things, and forcing people who don't want to discuss things to discuss discussing things only makes things worse.

There's really no need to drive ourselves nuts here. We can address the issue or ignore it, but arguing about whether or not it exists with someone who's going to pretend everything is a personal insult is fruitless.  

[Aaron]

You guys are a trip.