The Phorum
May 24, 2012, 09:26:07 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Spoon.
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register PhAQ  
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: Where have all the music critics gone?  (Read 1578 times)
MJanke
Phrequent Poster
***
Posts: 288



View Profile WWW
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2005, 06:13:21 PM »

Quote
Hey, go easy on bdg. If he wants to come out hurling mud and saying that we shouldn't be encouraging intelligent discussion.....
I hardly think that is a fair assessment at all of what he has been saying.
Logged

Aaron
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 4372


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2005, 06:26:53 PM »

Quote
Hey, go easy on bdg. If he wants to come out hurling mud and saying that we shouldn't be encouraging intelligent discussion....don't try to force him into anything. When mud's being thrown around over whether or not we even should be trying to explore new things - things quickly become muddy and irritating. There is nothing of value that can come from throwing crap around and saying that we shouldn't be discussing things, and forcing people who don't want to discuss things to discuss discussing things only makes things worse.

There's really no need to drive ourselves nuts here. We can address the issue or ignore it, but arguing about whether or not it exists with someone who's going to pretend everything is a personal insult is fruitless.
How ironic.............................
Logged
bloop
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 7220



View Profile
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2005, 06:46:57 PM »

Quote
I hardly think that is a fair assessment at all of what he has been saying.
I would agree with you here, but I'm not sure what he iss trying to say - that he even has a point at all.  In addition, for someone supposedly calling someone for being inflammatory (toward CCM reviewers) and pompous, he isn't coming off too well in a few instances.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2005, 06:47:51 PM by bloop » Logged

Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum

Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop
Dan
Guest
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2005, 07:34:23 PM »

Quote
Quote
Hey, go easy on bdg. If he wants to come out hurling mud and saying that we shouldn't be encouraging intelligent discussion....don't try to force him into anything. When mud's being thrown around over whether or not we even should be trying to explore new things - things quickly become muddy and irritating. There is nothing of value that can come from throwing crap around and saying that we shouldn't be discussing things, and forcing people who don't want to discuss things to discuss discussing things only makes things worse.

There's really no need to drive ourselves nuts here. We can address the issue or ignore it, but arguing about whether or not it exists with someone who's going to pretend everything is a personal insult is fruitless.
How ironic.............................
You could say Dan's learned from his mistakes here. It's not worth the time in some cases.
Logged
bdg13disciple
Phorum Phriend
****
Posts: 324



View Profile WWW
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2005, 04:02:47 PM »

as much as i'm cool with letting this thread die in my absence, i figure i should tie up a few loose ends... (FYI, Tuesdays i generally disappear as i'm buried in meetings and trying to get the CMC reviews written/finished/started/something - it wasn't that i was avoiding this thread)...

anyway, first off, and most of you know this already, but i don't have anything against Josh, Murlough, bloop or anyone else who chimed in to "gang up" on me... in fact, i didn't even feel ganged up on... i came into this discussion knowing that it was potentially inflammatory, and i know that my response wasn't going to diffuse anything...

besides that, i still feel that the rant was written in such a way as to slight or perhaps shame reviewers into covering outside material and i don't feel that a strong point was clearly made regarding the real importance of covering such music... i don't discourage covering non-bubblewrapped music and i do feel it serves a great purpose... i wanted to point out however, that while Josh was busy levying charges against CCM reviewers that his words may have been better served building a compelling argument to support his cause...

as far as pompous, well, i still feel that there's some of that involved, and whether it's a part of my posts too, which is arguable, doesn't affect that assessment at all... though, knowing my own motives and attitude writing them and reading your collective responses, i can see that it's also quite possible that i read into Josh's tone...

Art as a luxury... yes, indeed it is a luxury, i'm not wrong in that assessment... certainly God has called and gifted several of us to engage in the arts full-time (whether performing, creating, or even assessing), but for the vast majority of the population, it's a spare time thing...  is it wrong to engage in them?  no i'm not saying that at all... there is great purpose to being involved in such work... not the least of which is to be a well-equipped, informed and thereby effective witness... but it is not a necessity of following Christ... keep in mind, the arts were around in Biblical days and most pieces of art had religious overtones, whether Christian or pagan... but i don't see where Jesus or any of his disciples made an overt effort to engage themselves in the arts at all... (other than writing)...

other than that, i'm not sure there's too much to say... (and my boys are telling me that it's dinner time)... i'm going to leave it at that and i'll say to you Josh, that i encourage you to work creating a model to effectively engage in the arts if that's something on your heart...


peace... love... bdg...
Logged

:afro: vote for ME! I'm the next American Idol


--------
[strong]the latest TRus[/strong]
- Moment of TRu - Morning Walk TRu - Reviews - Front Page -
--------
*sighs*
murlough23
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 13586


I'm different.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2005, 04:12:03 PM »

Quote
Art as a luxury... yes, indeed it is a luxury, i'm not wrong in that assessment... certainly God has called and gifted several of us to engage in the arts full-time (whether performing, creating, or even assessing), but for the vast majority of the population, it's a spare time thing...  is it wrong to engage in them?  no i'm not saying that at all... there is great purpose to being involved in such work... not the least of which is to be a well-equipped, informed and thereby effective witness... but it is not a necessity of following Christ... keep in mind, the arts were around in Biblical days and most pieces of art had religious overtones, whether Christian or pagan... but i don't see where Jesus or any of his disciples made an overt effort to engage themselves in the arts at all... (other than writing)...
Engaging art doesn't necessarily mean creating it. My songwriting aside, I don't really create art. I engage it by evaluating it and observing that creative work done in the name of God is generally a good thing (it can often be improved upon, but it is an honorable thing to attempt to do). I don't see where most of the disciples were artists, but I do see where Jesus, and several of the authors of the Bible, were creative in their attempts to convey a message to people. In the case of the Psalms and possibly the Song of Solomon, song lyrics were used to this end. Poetry certainly was used even when there was no music.

The issue is not that everyone needs to create art. But when presented with art, it is tragic to denounce it as being ultimately unimportant to the Kingdom. It's one thing to say, "That's OK but it really isn't for me" and quite another to insinuate that for our music/movies/poetry/whatever to win people to Christ, it must eschew creativity in the interest of being as straightforward as possible (though being straightforward does not necessarily mean being uncreative). There is some creativity within the CCM scene, and some reviewers do recognize that and look for it and award higher ratings when they see it. But most give ratings (or a general positive opinion if they don't use a rating scale) solely on a basis of what they perceive as "ministry value", forgetting that if we paint God as uncreative or unconcerned with individual people's thoughts and testimonies, we do God a disservice.

Christians need to recognize the value of art, and seek to depict God thoughtfully and creatively when they attempt to share their experience of God with others. Totherwise all they have is rote repetition and rituals - new wine in old wineskins, so to speak.

NP: "Do You Think I Am Pretty?", He Is Legend
Logged
bdg13disciple
Phorum Phriend
****
Posts: 324



View Profile WWW
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2005, 05:04:55 PM »

i agree... we shouldn't by any means shy away from the arts...

as far as it being only creating... i'll just include my previous statement...

Quote
...engage in the arts full-time (whether performing, creating, or even assessing)...

and trust that you understand that i wasn't saying creating is the only way to engage in the arts...

we could point to the parables, song of solomon, psalms and many other passages of the Bible to show that art is part of life... but my point is that wasn't the focus of the earthly ministry of Jesus... it was at times a byproduct of it, but his focus was teaching, helping, and saving...

and this topic only relates to Josh's rant in the aspect of assessing (which is absent as far as i can tell in the Bible), as that's what he was discussing... but it's definitely a worthwhile dialogue...

peace... love... bdg...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2005, 05:05:32 PM by bdg13disciple » Logged

:afro: vote for ME! I'm the next American Idol


--------
[strong]the latest TRus[/strong]
- Moment of TRu - Morning Walk TRu - Reviews - Front Page -
--------
*sighs*
murlough23
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 13586


I'm different.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2005, 05:26:46 PM »

Quote
i agree... we shouldn't by any means shy away from the arts...

Then in a nutshell, we're really on the same side here.

Quote
as far as it being only creating... i'll just include my previous statement...

and trust that you understand that i wasn't saying creating is the only way to engage in the arts...

I missed that. Sorry.

Quote
we could point to the parables, song of solomon, psalms and many other passages of the Bible to show that art is part of life... but my point is that wasn't the focus of the earthly ministry of Jesus... it was at times a byproduct of it, but his focus was teaching, helping, and saving...

It wasn't the focus, but it is an essential component. The object is not to create art just for art's sake, or just to analyze art for sake of becoming good at analysis (though these aren't bad things). When Christians use a creative medium like music (as opposed to a more functional medium like preaching a sermon, though that can involve creativity as well) to express their experience/feelings/thoughts/whatever that have to do with God, it is important that they not give the impression that God is this static, uninventive being who desires to make thoughtless robots of His followers. When Christian music shows a lack of thought and creativity, I think it is guilty of giving this impression, which defeats the purpose of the message that the artist honestly does want to convey.

That's really a separate issue from CCM vs. "secular" music, but the issues often overlap because creativity tends to equal career suicide in CCM (well, in the mainstream music business too, but an artist forced into the underground due to not being conventional will have more of a potential audience if not limited to CCM). There are a few noteworthy exceptions that have managed to balance enough radio-friendly sensibility with genuine creativity that they get acclaim on both sides (or they started more radio-friendly and moved into more creative areas, or whatever), but by and large, it's hard to be truly creative and find much of an audience among Christians. I've noticed a highly pervasive belief that creativity somehow distorts or obscures the Gospel message, and that's the thing I'm trying to combat.

How does this relate to Josh's article? He's pointing out that a lot of people are being encouraged to stay entirely within a bubble inside which it's a lot harder to find and appreciate that creativity. I don't think someone's less spiritually mature for not knowing that Sam Phillips, Over the Rhine, or whoever else even exists. But someone living on a steady diet of the sect of CCM that gets the most media attention is most likely going to be fed a very shallow view of what Christianity is really like. Maybe they don't take music as seriously as I do, and therefore what they listen to in their spare time doesn't really affect their worldview. I don't know. It seems that what we are attracted to in terms of our listening/reading/movie-and-TV-watching habits does, to some extent, indicate something about us. When some of it is just plain superficial fun, no biggie, we all need to relax sometimes. When most of it is that, or when it's all doggedly serious but done in a way that eschews inventiveness and personality, I start to worry.

I guess I've just seen the "Creativity pollutes the Gospel" attitude from too many Christians, and the best way I can think of to combat this idea being formed in the minds of even more Christians is to encourage people to look outside the comfortable walls built by the Christians subculture and to not just be content with the supposedly "safe" content that's being fed to them. Yes, there is a lot outside those walls that is unsafe as well, but I don't think there's anywhere that they're truly safe, and being aware of that and being willing to find the good in the "unsafe" areas helps one to hone their discernment skills. Even if they only listen to CCM, they're going to need discernment, because a lot of crappy, happy-go-lucky philosophy is being peddled in the name of Christ and they need to be careful.

NP: "Kill the Grey" Olivia the Grey feat. Josh Kemble
Logged
thevoyager
Phorum Neophyte
*
Posts: 3



View Profile
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2005, 10:57:06 PM »

Hey Josh, that was a good read.
Have you heard of Tuesday Morning 3am or The Phantom Tollbooth?  Both tend to cover a lot of indie and lesser known Christian artists and tend to look for the art in music releases.

I'm not absolutely certain that Andre Salles @ tm3am is a Christian, but he's written about quite a few indie and lesser known Christian artists before and other articles that caught my attention in that way, which (hopefully not being too presumptious here) leads me to believe he is a Christian writer.  Though he does use a bit of language from time to time...but I suppose not much more than Opus or others like that.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2005, 01:05:02 AM by DvChWi » Logged
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2006, Simple Machines