More thoughts on Calvary

[Josh]

I've been doing a lot of reading and studying about the simultaneously human and divine nature of Christ recently, and I've been mulling over this question: Were both the human Christ and the divine Christ crucified on the cross, or was it only the human Christ?

I'm inclined to think that it was only the incarnate Christ who died on Calvary, for a couple of reasons:

1. First, the most obvious reason: God is immortal, invincible, eternal, etc., so... how can God die? The answer, of course, is that He can't.

2. Remember Christ's words on the cross: "My God, why have You forsaken me?" He was quoting the Psalmist here, but He also meant it as a literal fulfillment of the prophecy. Remember also that Christ took on the full punishment for our sins-- not only physical death, but also spiritual death (hell), which is generally defined as meaning separation from God. This is affirmed in John 19 when it tells us that, on the cross, Christ's body and His spirit were separated.

Thus, for Christ to truly take on the punishment for our sins, it would mean a separation from God. And, to me, that seems to imply that His divine nature-- perhaps rendered in John's Gospel as His "spirit"-- left His human body at the point of ultimate salvation on the cross.

So what say you pholks? I'm interested in hearing some thoughts on this, as it's a perplexing question, and not one that I've heard discussed very often in the past.

[dgp11776]

Hmm...deep question.  My initial reaction is to say that the two natures of Christ were never separated.  I would tend to think that the act of being forsaken was due to the fact that Christ was "made sin" for us - in that sense, God was turning judicially from Christ to punish sin.  The verses that would lead me to believe all of this is "Therefore doth My Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.  No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself.  I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of My Father."  I think that's in John 10.  But, in those verses, Christ is saying that He is the one doing the dying and resurrecting - one act is (somewhat) human, and the other is Divine.  I don't see that those natures could be separated at death, or Christ could not have raised Himself.  Very good question, though.  Probably one we'll never fully know, even when in Heaven.

[danny316]

Remember also that Christ took on the full punishment for our sins-- not only physical death, but also spiritual death (hell), which is generally defined as meaning separation from God. This is affirmed in John 19 when it tells us that, on the cross, Christ's body and His spirit were separated.

Thus, for Christ to truly take on the punishment for our sins, it would mean a separation from God. And, to me, that seems to imply that His divine nature-- perhaps rendered in John's Gospel as His "spirit"-- left His human body at the point of ultimate salvation on the cross.

I'm tempted to stop you at the beginning of that and say that not all Christians believe he was really in hell at that point, but you make a good point about the body and spirit being seperated.

I think this also raises some interesting questions about the nature of the trinity - Did Jesus raise from the dead of his own power (as the son), or was he risen by the father or the spirit? If he was incarnated but without his divine component, what would death mean to him - does he have a spirit besides that? Would it be spiritual hell to be personally divided like that and seperated from God, even if he wasn't in hell as we like to think of it? Would that seperation be a far-worse punishment than any ordinary hell we could fathom, thus making a far more substantial sacrifice for sin than we could ever think of?

This poses more questions than it really answers. Good thoughts though.  

[Josh]

I'm tempted to stop you at the beginning of that and say that not all Christians believe he was really in hell at that point, but you make a good point about the body and spirit being seperated.

Actually, I don't believe He was physically in Hell. (My church doesn't read that line in the Apostle's Creed.) I believe He took on the punishment of Hell in the sense that He was forsaken by God.

I think this also raises some interesting questions about the nature of the trinity - Did Jesus raise from the dead of his own power (as the son), or was he risen by the father or the spirit?

It has to have been by His own power! If He was raised by the Father then His resurrection would really be no different from that of Lazarus. He had to defeat death by His own power.

[danny316]

It has to have been by His own power! If He was raised by the Father then His resurrection would really be no different from that of Lazarus. He had to defeat death by His own power.

Well, technically he is the father too, so it would be by his own power even if it wasn't by his own power. Does that even make any sense?