Gay and Christian?

[Guest]

http://www.jeramyt.org/gay.html

[RokrantheGreat]

It aint possible.

[RokrantheGreat]

It aint possible.

Let me change that statement a little. I don't think it is possible to be gay after being a Christian. It is, however, no doubt possible for a gay to become a Christian. But that person should not continue being gay, and should be convicted of his sin.

[Josh]

I'd say it's possible, but not morally right.

[Vlad!]

I'd say it's possible. That person presents some compelling arguments, but I don't agree with most of them. I have a friend at college who is a homosexual and also tells me he is a Christian. I see no real reason to disbelieve him. If he asks me what I think, I would tell him that I believe homosexuality is wrong. But I wouldn't condemn him otherwise: that would just drive him away and seem to "prove" the common belief among the more religiously plural that Christians are intolerant bigots.  

[ixoye41]

so what about the difference of being a homosexual and being a practicing homosexual. the bible does not condemn attraction to the same-sex. it condemns lustful thinking (about anyone) and sexual actions with persons of the same sex. can a person be homosexual, but abstain from sex because he or she knows that it is wrong, and still be a Christian?
i am not in anyway promoting homosexuality, but rather am bringing a different view to light. i firmly believe God's word tells us homosexuality is wrong in any facet.  

[Guest]

I believe when the Bible speaks of homosexuality it is stricly talking sexual intercourse.

[Vlad!]

I believe when the Bible speaks of homosexuality it is stricly talking sexual intercourse.

I concur. But I still worry about gay Christians who aren't 'practising homosexuals.' They haven't done anything wrong, but their very religion condemns what they feel is natural.  

[Guest]

Exactly, their "religion" condemns them.

[DvChWi]

That link goes into a lot of language type stuff which I have no way of arguing with, simply because I don't know enough.   That should all change when I learn Greek, though.  At least, I hope so.  For now, I disagree with that page based on a plain reading of the scriptures.  It looked to me like that guy was really, really mincing words finely.  That usually doesn't bode well.

[smartash]

that is such a hard topic, but i agree with josh they they can be gay and christians. i've known christians who have no problem sleeping with each other while not being married, or christians who dont believe in the tinity or christians who are horrid liars, or thieves, or gossips, etc etc. i mean, josh and i believe the bible clearly shows that calvin is right, whereas mark would heartily disagree. we all have our biblical reasons why something is wrong or right. i personally dont see how homosexuality can be OK with God, but i've seen christians differ on so many other concepts biblically, that i can understand how some christians have no problem with it.
i have a hard time condeming a gay friend of mine who professes to know Christ, when i am so ashamed of the sins in my own life. i dont see how someone continuing in their homosexuality is any different than another christian having a problem with pornography, or for me to harbor bitter anger about something. for me, if it's not one sin i'm stumbling upon, it's another. and yes, i think it is wrong for someone to profess christ and to NOT think their homosexuality is a sin, but i also know there are sins and demons of my own that i'm not facing either.
in my book, if we are the chosen children of Christ, we are all the same to him-- we cannot compare our sins to each other, only to him, because none of us is better, we ALL have sinned and falen short of God's glory.

[standman87]

yes, i think it is wrong for someone to profess Christ and to NOT think their homosexuality is a sin, but i also know there are sins and demons of my own that i'm not facing either.
in my book, if we are the chosen children of Christ, we are all the same to Him-- we cannot compare our sins to each other, only to Him, because none of us is better, we ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glory.

true true

[Betis]

I really liked Smartash's post, couldn't have said it any better great insight

[Vlad!]

and yes, i think it is wrong for someone to profess christ and to NOT think their homosexuality is a sin, but i also know there are sins and demons of my own that i'm not facing either.

I concur, but what I have the hardest time with is telling someone that I feel their homosexuality is wrong. I don't want to judge or condemn the person, certainly, and I have enough sin in my own life that it would be totally hypocritical for me to throw the first stone. But should I just let it lie, knowing that here I have a friend who is open, unrepentant, and apparently proud of something that I feel is wrong? I don't want to say anything, but I also feel that I should. It's very confusing.

[Josh]

You know, we say that having homosexual preists is wrong because they are unrepentant, but we could have a priest or a minister who is a chronic liar, addicted to porn, or whatever, and nobody would ever know about it. And, as far as I can see, there's really no difference.

*Ponders*

[Vlad!]

You know, we say that having homosexual preists is wrong because they are unrepentant, but we could have a priest or a minister who is a chronic liar, addicted to porn, or whatever, and nobody would ever know about it. And, as far as I can see, there's really no difference.

I think there's a difference between struggling with a sin and being unrepentant. If a person is trying to change but sometimes slips back into sin, they're at least making the effort. With the help of Christian friends and God, they will hopefully eventually conquer the sin in their lives.
If, on the other hand, someone denies that (for example) pornography addiction is even wrong, they aren't repenting of it and don't even see it as a sin.

The issue of pastors is a little more complex. My parents' church recently kicked a guy off the pastoral staff for having an affair. He may have regretted his actions and been 'repentant,' after a fashion, but the church just felt that his behavior wasn't fitting for a man who is supposed to provide spiritual guidance to others. I think the same could be said of anyone in habitual sin, even if they are struggling with it. A man who has broken an addiction or who once lived in sin might be a viable pastoral candidate, but a man who is currently wallowing in it should probably not be chosen to lead others.  

[smartash]

I don't want to judge or condemn the person, certainly, and I have enough sin in my own life that it would be totally hypocritical for me to throw the first stone. But should I just let it lie, knowing that here I have a friend who is open, unrepentant, and apparently proud of something that I feel is wrong? I don't want to say anything, but I also feel that I should. It's very confusing.

wow vlad, i know, i know!
this is something i struggle with constantly! it all boils down to where i find the happy medium in being uncompromising in my walk with the Lord yet also not condemning/being a stumbling block/alienating others.
if anyone figures out how to do this, let me know!
 

[oneafroboy]

Is it possible to be a sinner and Christian?  

[oneafroboy]

A man who has broken an addiction or who once lived in sin might be a viable pastoral candidate, but a man who is currently wallowing in it should probably not be chosen to lead others.

Aren't we all addicted to sin? Aren't we all wallowing in our sin? Aren't we all still tied to our flesh (even though we have be crucified with Christ, our flesh still remains)?

However, certain things do make it harder for a person to shepherd a flock than other things. Because we are human and we rank certain sins, a pastor who is struggling with one of these "socially uncomfortable" may not be able to adequately do his/her job because of the flock's reaction to him. Where is the line to be drawn? I have no idea.  

[Vlad!]

Aren't we all addicted to sin? Aren't we all wallowing in our sin? Aren't we all still tied to our flesh (even though we have be crucified with Christ, our flesh still remains)?

However, certain things do make it harder for a person to shepherd a flock than other things. Because we are human and we rank certain sins, a pastor who is struggling with one of these "socially uncomfortable" may not be able to adequately do his/her job because of the flock's reaction to him. Where is the line to be drawn? I have no idea.

I am neither trying to 'rank' sins in any way or suggest that homosexual intercourse is somehow more sinful than something else that's somehow more socially acceptable. When I said '...a man who is currently wallowing in [sin] should probably not be chosen to lead others' I had assumed that you had read my previous posts where I explain that unrepentant, habitual sin is far different than sin where the person admits that he or she is doing wrong and repents. I feel that the Bible and logic both support me in this.

Note that here I'm talking about spiritual leaders, not Christians in general.

[oneafroboy]

No, I understood you Vlad! I wasn't trying to disagree with you. I was more or less just brining up the point that even pastors are still wallowing in sin; and so the issue becomes (as you stated) more complex. I did not think you were ranking sins.

And the second paragraph was just that--a second paragraph, not really meant as a direct response to what you had said. I concur that habitual sins are a different monster. I was simply questioning where we draw the line. I doubt there's anyone without unrepentent habitual sin. Some sins are very subtle. My own opinion is that a leader with outward unrepentant, habitual sin is perhaps not the best candidate for a leadership position.  

[Iris]

For one, I don't think we can compare our judgements like that.  To say that I can't disagree with homosexuality because I'm a sinner is ridiculous.

Secondly, the points in that guy's artical are not only claiming that homosexuality is okay, but also that God has let mistakes into the English interpretation of the Bible.


But my personal stance would be that if you have homosexual feelings, it is not sin.  But to dwell on it, and perform gay conduct is sin.   It is the action, not the temptation that is sin.  

[Vlad!]

Great points, Iris, especially your first one. I think what we're (or at least what I'm) trying to say is that we need to put it in perspective: it's a sin, but not any 'more' of a sin than some of the things we are trying to conquer in our own lives.

As to your personal stance, I would have to agree. Being tempted isn't a sin, because Christ was tempted and He never sinned.

[Harenil]

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

I really think that sums it up. i really don't think there can be a gay Christian unless he is a new believer and does not know what is wrong.

[Vlad!]

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

I really think that sums it up. i really don't think there can be a gay Christian unless he is a new believer and does not know what is wrong.

Way to resurrect an old thread. Oh, well, more intelligent discussion never hurt anyone.

Can there be a Christian who is a liar? A murderer? An adultuerer? Does God only accept those who are pure of heart? If so, He and Jesus must be pretty lonely playing chess or whatever up there in heaven. As mentioned several times on this thread, homosexuality (or, some may argue, the act of homosexual intercourse) is a sin. But God accepts sinners. So a gay Christian is a sinner Christian. Well, welcome to the club, because so are we. Not that it's a good thing to deny that what you're doing is wrong or that you don't need to change, but can God save someone who's a homosexual? Yeah, He can.

Side note: much of the stuff in Leviticus is Jewish (or Rabbinical) law. As you (hopefully) are aware (well, unless you ARE a Jew, in which case ignore this), we gentiles don't exactly follow this. The law relates to everyday life as much as it does to salvation. It's telling a Jew how to be a good Jew. It's useful to us because it shows what God values (and I can explain this if you don't get it), but it's not for us.

On the other hand, God doesn't just say "yeah, guys, if you could not have gay sex that would be great." He says it's an abomination (or despicable, or grody, or whatever word your translator used). That's a little stronger than your average Levitical injunction, so maybe it suggests that God finds homosexuality to be a sin whether you're a Jew or not. This is the view I take, but there is legitimate dispute.

[RokrantheGreat]

I would like to re-state my opinion (and gain control over the phorum boards =D ): A gay person can become a Christian, but if he is a true believer, he will change his ways.

[Harenil]

Exactly. I firmly beleive that Bible says homosexuality is wrong. Plus, its just disgusting  

[leinad]

Exactly. I firmly beleive that Bible says homosexuality is wrong. Plus, its just disgusting

I don't think something seeming disgusting necessarily has any bearing on its morality or lack thereof.  Homosexuals probably find heterosexuality disgusting.  And many people find inter-racial relationships disgusting.  Not to say that homosexuality isn't wrong, just that whether you or I personally find it appealing is irrelevant.

[Harenil]

I didn't say that it was because its disgusting, just that I think its disgusting.

[RokrantheGreat]

It is extremely disgusting, but, as leinad said, that has no bearing on its morality.

[Harenil]

but, as leinad said, that has no bearing on its morality.

Ah!!!!! I never said it did!

[RokrantheGreat]

Ah!!!!! I never said it did!

I wasn't getting after you, Harey. Just stating my opinion.

[Vlad!]

I would like to re-state my opinion (and gain control over the phorum boards =D ): A gay person can become a Christian, but if he is a true believer, he will change his ways.

I tend to agree with you, but I would suggest that the change may not be immediate. I think it is possible for a gay person to become a Christian while firmly believeing that homosexuality is OK and then be gradually convicted, begin to struggle with it, and eventually try to (and hopefully succeed) in changing. From all the gay people I know, sexual orientation is something that you don't just change because of the feeling of a moment. As leinad said, the few I've talked to indicate that they feel about heterosexual sex the same way we do about homosexual sex. So it's a major change, and some people struggle with it. After all, if I were gay and decided that it was wrong, I would have to ask why I WAS gay. We don't know exactly what causes it, but why would God allow one of His children to have these feelings if they're wrong?

[leinad]

Let me clarify here that I am not gay.  I do sympathize with them, however, especially after seeing the hatred directed at them by certain unnamed people, some of whom went as far as to blame 9/11 on gays and then condemned Mister Rogers to hell because he never preached against homosexuality.

[Harenil]

That thing I am really against is our part of our taxes going toward gay funds. If they really are no different and they should be accepted as regular people, why do they get money from the government!? why aren't there heterosexual funds!? Gays shouldn't get special treatment just because they choose a morally wrong idea.

[oneafroboy]

I tend to agree with Vlad and leinad. We wouldn't say this would we:

I believe a sinner can become a Christian, but after he/she becomes a Christian, they will stop sinning.

We know that's no true. Paul--an apostle no less--knew that. We all have sins that we have not been convicted of. We may never be convicted of it while here on Earth. Everyone's walk is different. While I think there should definitely be a change, we as humans cannot determine what that change should be. We often think that gays who become Christians should forsake their homosexuality as their very first sin to "overcome". But perhaps there are other deeper, subtler sins that God wishes them to struggle with first. And as Vlad! said, a Christian may not even be immediately convicted that homosexuality (that is to say, homosexual acts (lust and sex outside the marriage context--as is true for everyone, straight or gay), not attraction in itself) is wrong. I think the thing to remember is that we can say "yes that is sin", but we cannot say "you need to be *here* right now in your walk with Christ." That's God's job.

(PS: That doesn't mean God can't use ppl, but I tend to shy away from "God told me that you should...whatever". I think that's kind of dangerous.)

[Vlad!]

Yes, leinad, people like Jerry Falwell, Fred Phelps, and Pat Robertson have made me wonder. It's not good to question the salvation of anybody, but when I read "they shall know that we are Christians by our love" and then look at those men, well, I shake my head in shame.

[oneafroboy]

Amen, brutha.

 

[GusX:]

I concur, but what I have the hardest time with is telling someone that I feel their homosexuality is wrong. I don't want to judge or condemn the person, certainly, and I have enough sin in my own life that it would be totally hypocritical for me to throw the first stone. But should I just let it lie, knowing that here I have a friend who is open, unrepentant, and apparently proud of something that I feel is wrong? I don't want to say anything, but I also feel that I should. It's very confusing.

Vlad - usually I disagree with you.. but for once I agree with something you say ( Yes, thats right, Agree)
Its hard to tell anyone of a sin that they are commiting when you know your  full of "it" yourself..
But, it really comes down to, do you accept the Bible for what it says plainly , or are you a higher critic of it ....  Personally, the Bible says homosexuallity is wrong...   You wont convince me otherwise, However,  Im not condemning anyone to hell because they have homosexual tendencies...   If someone who is "gay" knows and desires to get rid of that sin ( having sexual relations with that of the same gender) then they by all rights with the support of other christians, and God's will  can become a christian - The thoughts never will leave... but God does call them to a non homosexual lifestyle..  I know of a few people who are "recovered homosexuals" that have a wife and love her dearly and even kids.. but that doesnt take away the "lust"  but they still fight it...       If my friend was open,unrepentant, and proud of something that i felt was wrong,  I would tell them of my ideas, and why, IF I've shown them the right way (in God's eyes)  they have all the reason to repent, If they react in another manor, then that is their "fault" ...  And If my view is wrong, perhaps they could show me why, and If it is God's will,, then I will change my convictions,,,,


It all starts with strong convictions/ foundations...    from that..  one must have Love, and patience,  ..

To throw the first stone is not being hypocritical if you do it with love...   AND an earnest desire to bring that person closer with God...  




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