Icons and Relics

[phaith]

I am speaking at a conference (Paul will be happy   ) on Icons and Relics (Paul will not be happy  :angry: ) LOL...

What I plan on doing is talking about the history and Theology behind these things, then there will be a discussion in groups about it, then they come back and ask me questions.

I don't want to give them the 'this is wrong' or 'this is right' but to present the topic and they can choose for themselves what they believe...now...when one does that, one leaves themselves open to all kinds of questions and criticism...I'm a little nervous about that...because though I know a bit on this subject (and have many books to give me more info) I don't know everything, and there will be lots of questions that I will not be able to anticipate.

This is where I would like your help...I would like an open discussion on Icons and Relics and see what kinds of questions you would come up with...this might spark something's with me, and help me to look into the answers.

few facts:
- ages of participants will be 16-25
- approximately 100 persons from all types of traditions

Icons
often pictures or statues/sculptures specifically made by an icon artist in order to inspire praise/adoration/prayer

Relics
items or sometimes bones having belonged to saints of the past, also intended to inspire awe/prayer/ praise etc.

caution: I realize that the BIG issue here will probably be 'idolatry'...that is fine, I expect TONES of questions on that...however...I am hoping that other issues will be thought of and not just idolatry...be creative.
Thanks!  

[Tom]

[Josh]

An excellent response, Tom. I confess that I, too, express some serious misgivings about the use of iconography for the very reason that you have so clearly (and so biblically!) outlined.

[phaith]

ok...I will address that...thoguh not right now, as I am heading to work...LOL...I will also maybe post the questons I am considering givng for the group discussion...again...when I have more time. Maybe they will spark other questions.

[oneafroboy]

Why does art that is meant to inspire awe/prayer/devotion/worship have to be idolatrous?

When the art is graven, yes, then there is a problem. But I like churches that have art in them. Images and the like (stain-glass or whatever). I know I come from a more Episcopal background (so I'm probably closer to Catholicism than some of you here), not that we have icons, because we don't--but if there are images in a church, for me, they are not things to be worshipped. They are there more for aesthetics. Why should churches not be beautiful. Are not church buildings also supposed to be beautiful (if possible) and, in a sense, and offering to He who created beauty?

And relics are weird to me. There's nothing that convinces me that these are okay. I don't think we are supposed to glorify man in temples where we are supposed to be worshipping the Lord.  

[danny316]

Why does art that is meant to inspire awe/prayer/devotion/worship have to be idolatrous?

When the art is graven, yes, then there is a problem. But I like churches that have art in them. Images and the like (stain-glass or whatever). I know I come from a more Episcopal background (so I'm probably closer to Catholicism than some of you here), not that we have icons, because we don't--but if there are images in a church, for me, they are not things to be worshipped. They are there more for aesthetics. Why should churches not be beautiful. Are not church buildings also supposed to be beautiful (if possible) and, in a sense, and offering to He who created beauty?

And relics are weird to me. There's nothing that convinces me that these are okay. I don't think we are supposed to glorify man in temples where we are supposed to be worshipping the Lord.

Great post. I'd have to see that that kind of art is not idolatrous most of the time.

Well, unless you start to go into the "pop-culture" aspect of some modern art. I think that many people take all these "Christian" books and CDs much too seriously, and then that often becomes a problem for people.

[PaulDA]

I am speaking at a conference (Paul will be happy  ) on Icons and Relics (Paul will not be happy  :angry: ) LOL...
 

The gist of it is this:
Anything can become an idol, a singer, clothes, our looks, etc, not just statues and symbols..
I personally don't care for those things in general, but that's how I think. Others think differently. As long as they are not putting the icons and relics ahead of God, I have no problem with it.
Yes, I have changed my stance on this dramatically.
Only God is perfect, and humans are going to worship Him differently than each other.

[phaith]

I am speaking at a conference (Paul will be happy  ) on Icons and Relics (Paul will not be happy  :angry: ) LOL...
 

The gist of it is this:
Anything can become an idol, a singer, clothes, our looks, etc, not just staues and symbols..
I personally don't care for those things in general, but that's how I think. Others think differently. As long as they are not putting the icons and relics ahead of God, I have no problem with it.
Yes, I have changed my stance on this dramatically.
Only God is perfect, and humans are going to worship Him differently than each other.

WHOA!!

Yah Paul...

Well, I would agree, and I have some defense, and some history and even some Greek and Hebrew...LOL (I don't like pulling out the greek and hebrew...it makes my head spin!)

Again I am off to work, but I'm glad someone is saying something here, and not just waiting on me.  =)  

[PaulDA]

[Josh]

Replying to various people...

When the art is graven, yes, then there is a problem. But I like churches that have art in them. Images and the like (stain-glass or whatever). I know I come from a more Episcopal background (so I'm probably closer to Catholicism than some of you here), not that we have icons, because we don't--but if there are images in a church, for me, they are not things to be worshipped. They are there more for aesthetics. Why should churches not be beautiful. Are not church buildings also supposed to be beautiful (if possible) and, in a sense, and offering to He who created beauty?

Well, fwiw, my concern is mostly with images that depict God and/or Jesus. A cross, for example, is fine with me-- we have on at the front of my church-- but a crucifix is not. So I'm certainly not against all religious art.

The gist of it is this:
Anything can become an idol, a singer, clothes, our looks, etc, not just statues and symbols..

Right, and that's what's talked about in the 1st Commandment. The 2nd one, however-- the one that pertains to iconography-- is different. After all, if it were simply about putting things before God, it would just be a repitition of the 1st Commandment. The 2nd Commandment really isn't about idolatry so much as the ways in which God wants to be worshipped (ie, without graven images).

As long as they are not putting the icons and relics ahead of God, I have no problem with it.

I don't think the concern is with these things being put ahead of God so much as corrupting our understanding of God. Images convey attributes, and images speak louder than words; many churches have forgotten this. Icons are meant to reperesent God, but, since they are made by fallen human hands, they cannot help but be incomplete or misleading representations, and they cannot possibly do His glory any kind of justice.

In Asian countries, Jesus is often depicted as an Asian man; in Africa, He is often seen as a black man. But the thing is, Jesus was probably neither of those things. We don't know what He looked like, so if we create an image and say that it is Him, we are essentially assigning false attributes to Christ-- which is blasphemous-- or worshipping someone other than Christ but saying it is Christ-- which is heresy.

However, when people pray to these statues or images, or picture them in their minds when they pray, then I have a problem with it.
For instance, millions of Christians actually picture Jesus as He looks in certain paintings when they pray to Him. If they are not careful, that 'image' will become an idol.

I would agree here, Paul, and go on to repeat that images speak louder than words. One might claim that he or she can look at an icon without beginning to think of Jesus in that way, but that's just not true. Just think how many people now pray to Jesus with a picture of Jim Cavaziel in their minds!

Also, I still disagree 100% with people praying to anyone else excpet God.
To me, that is a form of idolatry.

Yes.

If someone just says to Mary "Please ask God to pray for me", (because Roman Catholics say asking dead people to pray is the same as asking a live friend to pray),
I would have no problem with that, but people don't just do that. They actually pray to Mary and other dead saints, sometimes for hours! That's where that particualr thing becomes idolotry for me.

Right. And I have to wonder... can Mary actually HEAR them? She is, after all, dead...

I would disagree with praying to Mary or the Saints even if, as you say, Paul, they were really just asking those people to pray for them. For one thing, this practice is nowhere in Scripture. For another thing, Catholic doctrine teaches that Mary and the Saints are somehow *better* or more righteous than, say, you or I, which is dead wrong.


 

[PaulDA]

I would disagree with praying to Mary or the Saints even if, as you say, Paul, they were really just asking those people to pray for them. For one thing, this practice is nowhere in Scripture. For another thing, Catholic doctrine teaches that Mary and the Saints are somehow *better* or more righteous than, say, you or I, which is dead wrong.

I don't believe we can 'talk' to dead saints either. I'm not even sure if wee go straight to Heaven when we die or if we are in the ground, asleep, until the resurrection.
However, as we have been saying, no one has all the answers, and if the 'dead saints' can hear live people, the proper thing would be for people to ask them to pray to God for them, not to pray to them.

[Guest]

[Tom]

oops. the "Guest" was yours truly.

[Guest]

So Josh, would you say that Michaelangelo's Pieta (which I would consider to be one of the great works of sculptural art) is sinful and breaking the 2nd commandment?  

[Josh]

So Josh, would you say that Michaelangelo's Pieta (which I would consider to be one of the great works of sculptural art) is sinful and breaking the 2nd commandment?

Yes, Bethany, I would, for the reasons listed above.

[phaith]

I think that there needs to be an understanding between 'worship' and 'veneration'.

A while ago I asked about flag day and the significance of the American flag. I notice that many people when they sing the American national anthem and face the flag, they either salute or put their hands over their hearts....is this worship? worshiping a flag?

No it's not...it's veneration...it is showing respect for what the flag represents.

This is the same with icons, they are a representation of a person or idea that is respected.

I have an icon of St. Patrick in my house. I think it's great! Patrick was the first missionary to the Celts. Some of the things he taught about were grace and hospitality. Things that I believe are important to the Christian faith and important to me. I do not pray to this icon, but seeing it reminds me to have an attitude of hospitality to everyone I meet...and it makes me think of Jesus who did have that sense of hospitality.

Let me clairify some working that might help...I do not pray to the icon, but pray with the icon...the icon puts me in a state of prayerfulness...of worship...not to the icon, but to God.  

[PaulDA]

Let me clairify some working that might help...I do not pray to the icon, but pray with the icon...the icon puts me in a state of prayerfulness...of worship...not to the icon, but to God.

You may very well do that, but I would suspect the vast majority of people who pray 'to icons' or 'statues' or 'saints', do not attempt to pray with that saint to God ( it is even debatable if dead saints can pray with us or even for us), but pray to that saint, as if that saint can actually keep them safe or help them win the lottery!
.....How many times have I read in the newspaper, (the last time was Jennifer Lopez's mother) where 'devout' Catholics have prayed over and over and over again to a favorite or patron saint and give that saint credit for winning the lottery or for savving them from a disaster, or whatever. God is almost never mentioned in these stories.

[Vlad!]

I think the second commandment was much more relevant when it was originally inscribed than it is today. When the Israelites felt that they had been abandoned by Moses and by God, they immediately asked Aaron to create something for them to worship. To modern readers, at least in America, this seems very odd. They knew that this god was something they themselves had crafted out of gold. Rather than worshipping a God they knew to be both real and powerful, they turned to something of their own creation. This kind of action is difficult to comprehend. However, when I look at the underlying heart attitudes this law gets at, it starts to make a bit more sense.

It is natural for me to feel that I can trust myself. If I want something done, I know whether I am up to the task, and I know if it is something challenging that I will do everything in my power to come out victorious. Despite the number of times God has shown me that I am really nothing, to me I am a known quantity. I have control over myself. However, I don't have control over God. God is unpredictable and powerful. His way are not my ways, and this is scary because I am not in control when I'm trusting God. Just like the Israelites felt scared and out of control at the foot of Mt. Sinai.

Crafting an idol is like trying to take control. Even though the Israelites knew that this idol was worthless, that they created it themselves, they had control over it. It was safe, because it wasn't going to do something they couldn't predict. It wasn't going to command them to take on a powerful army they couldn't beat on their own strength or challenge a ruler who his people believe to be a god. I believe that the second commandment is echoed when Christ says "follow me." The second commandment is at the basis of him telling the rich man to give his money to the poor and follow him. We are to trust in something greater than ourselves, for this will be the mark of the followers of God.

I don't think simply by creating a work of art designed to depict Christ is a violation of the second commandment. I think Jesus' teachings provide ample evidence that the law of God isn't just in following literal words but in how it pertains to the heart. Those who venerate some relic because they think it will get them out of x years of purgatory, those who pray to the saints because they think the saints will intercede for them, those who worship or pray to icons because they think the icon itself is worth anything, they are all trying to impose a formula onto Christianity. They are trying to take control. On the other hand, if a sculptor creates a work of stone to depict Christ, whom the sculptor loves, or a glassworker pieces together a stained-glass window to show our Lord's ascention to heaven or baptism or crucifixion, I don't think this is trying to take control as much as expressing the inner joy and happiness that comes from giving up control. It's like a man who commissions a portrait of his wife and then hangs it in his study, or even a guy who frames a photograph and puts it on his desk at the office. He's not loving the art, he does it both as an expression of love to the one the art depicts and also as a visible reminder of that which he cares so much for.

[bloop]

GREAT post, Vlad, and not just because I'm glad I can keep admiring great works of art.

[PaulDA]

Crafting an idol is like trying to take control.

Europeans have historically liked to 'take control', and when these painters depicted Christ as some tall white European, femininly dressed foppishly in a flowing robe, they were trying to make people belive Jesus was a white man.
The most famous paintings of Jesus are all by white Europeans.
Those paintings are definetely idols for millions of people worldwide who think of Jesus as a tall white European when in fact He was probably short and swarthy.

[Josh]

I think the second commandment was much more relevant when it was originally inscribed than it is today.

Be careful with statements like that. Passages that may seem less relevant to our world are probably just relevant in a different way, ie, enhancing our understanding of the Scriptures in their historic and literary context.

And again, I would contend that interpreting the second commandment as being a warning against placing other things (idols) before God is basically saying that it's a rehash of the first commandment. That is to say, if the problem was that the Hebrews were worshipping a false god, that would clearly be a violation of the first commandment; why, then, would God feel obligated to make a second commandment that basically says the same thing?

The key distinction between the two is this: The first commandment tells us WHO to worship, the second tells us HOW to worship (or, more accurately, how NOT to worship.) Remember, the Hebrews were not worshipping the golden calf as a false god; they called it Jehovah, assigning it the same attributes as Almighty God! The point was that they were worshipping God in a way that He had not ordained, and indeed, even commanded them not to have any part of.

On the other hand, if a sculptor creates a work of stone to depict Christ, whom the sculptor loves, or a glassworker pieces together a stained-glass window to show our Lord's ascention to heaven or baptism or crucifixion, I don't think this is trying to take control as much as expressing the inner joy and happiness that comes from giving up control. It's like a man who commissions a portrait of his wife and then hangs it in his study, or even a guy who frames a photograph and puts it on his desk at the office. He's not loving the art, he does it both as an expression of love to the one the art depicts and also as a visible reminder of that which he cares so much for.

The danger of icons is this: They are meant to communicate Truth, but they are made by people who do not have a complete or perfect knowledge of the Truth! An icon cannot possibly portray the real Christ in all His glory because we do not know or understand all His glory. An icon, because it is the work of human imagination, must by default be incomplete and misleading. Thus, since pictures speak louder than words, an icon is prone to corrupting our understanding of the Divine.  

[Vlad!]

Be careful with statements like that. Passages that may seem less relevant to our world are probably just relevant in a different way, ie, enhancing our understanding of the Scriptures in their historic and literary context.

That's actually what I meant to convey. The intent of that statement was "The Second Commandment as written was much more relevant when it was written than today." The underlying issue still exists (as I hope I made clear in my post), but I think the modern believer is tempted to take control of God using different ways than trying to force him into an idol.

 

[bloop]

The commandments themselves are not numbered, thus they break down differently in different denominations.  I don't see any particular conflict in seeing the first and second commandment as being related, myself, and that seems to be the best-supported thesis on them as well, from the text itself.

[MJanke]

The key distinction between the two is this: The first commandment tells us WHO to worship, the second tells us HOW to worship (or, more accurately, how NOT to worship.) Remember, the Hebrews were not worshipping the golden calf as a false god; they called it Jehovah, assigning it the same attributes as Almighty God! The point was that they were worshipping God in a way that He had not ordained, and indeed, even commanded them not to have any part of.

That was an excellent post, Josh.

[PaulDA]

Here is a perfect example of what I mean by people worshipping dead saints and their statues.
I just heard on the news that some key went ballistic and shot up some Christian place and lnocked the head off a statue of some saint (saint Anne??).
Anyway, a policeman had his femur shattered, and there was a quote on the radio that some person was "horrified that Saint Anne's head was blown off".
Here we have a policeman seriously injured, people could have been killed and all this person is worried about is some stupid statue's head!!
When I hear stories like that it really pisses me off!

[phaith]

Here is a perfect example of what I mean by people worshipping dead saints and their statues.
I jusy heard on the news that some key went ballistic and shot up some Christian place and lnocked the head off a statue of some saint (saint Anne??).
Anyway, a policeman had his femur shattered, and there was a quote on the radio that some person was "horrified that Saint Anne's head was blown off".
Here we have a policeman seriously injured, people could have been killed and all this person is worried about is some stupid statue's head!!
When I hear stories like that it really pisses me off!

Ya but that is media...they are going to pull out all the quacks because it sells newspapers etc...I don't think that the majority of people who find icons helpful actually are that hard core...not everyone sees the face of Mary in a piece of toast...

None of the Catholics I know abuse icons...but then I only know a handfull...

[danny316]

The key distinction between the two is this: The first commandment tells us WHO to worship, the second tells us HOW to worship (or, more accurately, how NOT to worship.) Remember, the Hebrews were not worshipping the golden calf as a false god; they called it Jehovah, assigning it the same attributes as Almighty God! The point was that they were worshipping God in a way that He had not ordained, and indeed, even commanded them not to have any part of.

So, wouldn't much of the CCM-based worship that's directed to God but very artist-focused and artist's-ideas-focused be morally wrong then?

(Secretly, I'm already thinking that MWS is of the devil, but I thought I'd start somewhere that sounds less silly.)

[Josh]

So, wouldn't much of the CCM-based worship that's directed to God but very artist-focused and artist's-ideas-focused be morally wrong then?

That's a whole other can of worms, I think. The text specifically warns against worshipping through graven images, but never mentions music, at least not here; to discuss whether the same principle applies to worship music, then, is probably outside of the scope of this thread.

[danny316]

Hmm. Wouldn't limiting that to graven images be obeying the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law?

Also, I feel like I should be a smartass and note that they didn't have audio recording back then.  

[Josh]

For those who don't see the danger in creating images and icons of the Deity... presenting Exhibit A:

[Vlad!]

It shows up as a broken image...try linking the page instead of hotlinking the picture.

[Josh]

See if this works.

[Vlad!]

See if this works.

ERROR
The requested URL could not be retrieved

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While trying to retrieve the URL: http://127.0.0.1:8000/img/239/3390/400/bus...esus_christ.jpg

The following error was encountered:

Access Denied.
Access control configuration prevents your request from being allowed at this time. Please contact your service provider if you feel this is incorrect.

Your cache administrator is root.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Generated Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:00:14 GMT by photos1.blogger.com (squid/2.5.STABLE3)

[Josh]

Oh well. It was a picture of Jesus, only with the face of George W. Bush.

[Brenden]

That one?

[Josh]

That one!

[PaulDA]

That one?

So.....that would give the 'burning bush' a whole other meaning, eh?

[phaith]

^^ Dear me...

There is no outlet for power point where I am speaking...otherwise I might have included that one as a joke

I am almost finished my sermon/speech...the few days before I speak almost always kill me...even when I have to teach (actually teaching is worse for stress because the freshmen are often hostile and think they know everything...it's frustrating.)

I would value your prayers for calm nerves.  

[PaulDA]

Hey, do I count as a relic, considering my age?  

[joeldavid]