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Vlad!
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« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2005, 10:33:33 PM » |
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Hi, joeldavid, and welcome to the Phorum.
I agree with many things that you say, but I do have one question. You say that "Icons and relics are important and serve a purpose as long as the attention is directed upward and not solely to the objects themselves." I can't think of any scriptural support for this at all--indeed, there is nothing in scripture that I can recall which suggests that icons and relics are somehow exempt from the graven image proscription. As I argued above, I do believe that the issue is one of the heart and not just a ban on graven images qua graven images, but I don't think that icons and relics are an important part of the faith at all. In fact, given that there is indeed the danger of venerating the item rather than God, I would argue that in general they are more harmful than helpful.
I'm not advocating the destruction of art which happens to depict Christ and I'm certainly not saying that all religious icons are sinful, but it's not something I would encourage. How many people will take a thousand-mile trip to see the Shroud of Turin but won't take five seconds to bless their neighbor?
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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phaith
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« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2005, 11:21:08 PM » |
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I definately think that if you feel that you are in danger of worshiping an icon, then having them would not be a good idea...I do think that they can be a very important part of ones spiritual life. They are for me...
The talk went very well...I had hoped innitially to have this bit 'preaching' moment and realized, that is just not me, so I just talked and asked questions and it was great. They seemed to like me and I also enjoyed them!
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"There are two ways to have enough, one is to accumulate more and more, the other is to desire less." - G.K. Chesterton
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Josh
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« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2005, 11:59:07 AM » |
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Vlad!, you bring up what may very well be the best argument against the use of icons: There is nowhere in Scripture-- that I know of, anyway-- that ever encourages or promotes the use of iconography in worship.
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phaith
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« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2005, 12:07:59 PM » |
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Vlad!, you bring up what may very well be the best argument against the use of icons: There is nowhere in Scripture-- that I know of, anyway-- that ever encourages or promotes the use of iconography in worship. So I'm assuming that you guys beleive that we can only dirrect our lives by scripture and nothing else? I forget how fundi this board is! LOL |
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"There are two ways to have enough, one is to accumulate more and more, the other is to desire less." - G.K. Chesterton
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Josh
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« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2005, 12:12:09 PM » |
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So I'm assuming that you guys beleive that we can only dirrect our lives by scripture and nothing else?
I forget how fundi this board is! LOL The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is hardly a fundamentalist doctrine! Well, perhaps in the sense that it is indeed fundamental to the faith, but it's something that was at one time-- and should still be-- embraced by all Protestant churches. And I never claimed that the Bible tells us everything we need to know for living our lives. It never tells us how to brush our teeth, for example. Or which stocks to invest in. But, when it comes to the worship of Almighty God, why one earth would we possibly turn to any guidebook other than the one that He Himself authored? Do you really think that the worship of the Creator is something that can be dictated by the whims and ideas of fallen men? (Because that's exactly where iconography originated.) |
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bloop
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« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2005, 12:16:37 PM » |
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Still, an argument from silence isn't going to do much for anyone. I think the case on your side was stronger when you were talking about the second commandment, though I still think it's a stretch to go from how God wants to be worshipped to what subjects are appropriate for any kind of artwork.
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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phaith
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« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2005, 03:19:17 PM » |
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So I'm assuming that you guys beleive that we can only dirrect our lives by scripture and nothing else?
I forget how fundi this board is! LOL The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is hardly a fundamentalist doctrine! Well, perhaps in the sense that it is indeed fundamental to the faith, but it's something that was at one time-- and should still be-- embraced by all Protestant churches. And I never claimed that the Bible tells us everything we need to know for living our lives. It never tells us how to brush our teeth, for example. Or which stocks to invest in. But, when it comes to the worship of Almighty God, why one earth would we possibly turn to any guidebook other than the one that He Himself authored? Do you really think that the worship of the Creator is something that can be dictated by the whims and ideas of fallen men? (Because that's exactly where iconography originated.) *groans* well...this falls on closed ears so I will not go much further...if the bible doesn't contain everything...then maybe it's missing something? I also don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture many Christians don't so PLEASE don't pull the 'I'm not a christian bit'. God can be found in so many things and we miss Him constantly!! I think He thinks it's great when we see him everywhere. When we see him in other people, and yes, even in pictures of other people! |
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"There are two ways to have enough, one is to accumulate more and more, the other is to desire less." - G.K. Chesterton
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Josh
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« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2005, 04:40:59 PM » |
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Yes, God can be seen in many places...
...but that doesn't change what He says in His Word about iconography. And it also doesn't change the fact that incorporating the rituals of fallen men into corporate worship seems a little dangerous to me. (After all, if they're not biblically ordained then aren't they, essentially, empty rituals?)
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phaith
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« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2005, 05:29:22 PM » |
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Yes, God can be seen in many places...
...but that doesn't change what He says in His Word about iconography. And it also doesn't change the fact that incorporating the rituals of fallen men into corporate worship seems a little dangerous to me. (After all, if they're not biblically ordained then aren't they, essentially, empty rituals?) If God can be seen in many places...then why does it matter if Icons are not in the bible? |
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"There are two ways to have enough, one is to accumulate more and more, the other is to desire less." - G.K. Chesterton
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Josh
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« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2005, 06:08:09 PM » |
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Yes, God can be seen in many places...
...but that doesn't change what He says in His Word about iconography. And it also doesn't change the fact that incorporating the rituals of fallen men into corporate worship seems a little dangerous to me. (After all, if they're not biblically ordained then aren't they, essentially, empty rituals?) If God can be seen in many places...then why does it matter if Icons are not in the bible? Because the mere fact that we "see God" in something isn't what's really important; in fact, that seems like a fairly self-centered way of looking at things ("Well, I see God in it, so it must be okay...). What's important is that we obey God by worshiping Him in the way He wants to be worshiped, and one of the commands that God gives us concerning worship is not to add or take away from the guidelines that He has laid out in His Word. |
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phaith
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« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2005, 06:57:06 PM » |
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Yes, God can be seen in many places...
...but that doesn't change what He says in His Word about iconography. And it also doesn't change the fact that incorporating the rituals of fallen men into corporate worship seems a little dangerous to me. (After all, if they're not biblically ordained then aren't they, essentially, empty rituals?) If God can be seen in many places...then why does it matter if Icons are not in the bible? Because the mere fact that we "see God" in something isn't what's really important; in fact, that seems like a fairly self-centered way of looking at things ("Well, I see God in it, so it must be okay...). What's important is that we obey God by worshiping Him in the way He wants to be worshiped, and one of the commands that God gives us concerning worship is not to add or take away from the guidelines that He has laid out in His Word. *shrugs* I guess we will have to disagree |
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"There are two ways to have enough, one is to accumulate more and more, the other is to desire less." - G.K. Chesterton
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PaulDA
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« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2005, 02:46:13 PM » |
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I think the question should be, WHY do some Christians need relics and icons to help them worship God??
You don't need that stuff. You just pray to God and worship Him.
Why would I want to look at a statue of some dead person or even of Jesus?
What is the point?
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TW
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« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2005, 08:06:46 PM » |
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I think the question should be, WHY do some Christians need relics and icons to help them worship God??
You don't need that stuff. You just pray to God and worship Him.
Why would I want to look at a statue of some dead person or even of Jesus?
What is the point? What is the point of the cross? What is the point of the crown of thorns? Paul, if you were a true fundamentalist, you would be in support of symbols. It's all throughout the Bible |
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PaulDA
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« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2005, 11:59:45 PM » |
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I think the question should be, WHY do some Christians need relics and icons to help them worship God??
You don't need that stuff. You just pray to God and worship Him.
Why would I want to look at a statue of some dead person or even of Jesus?
What is the point? What is the point of the cross? What is the point of the crown of thorns? Paul, if you were a true fundamentalist, you would be in support of symbols. It's all throughout the Bible There really is no point to them. They are just 'accepted' by most of tyhe church because it has become a habit. We should be able to think of Jesus on the cross and being tortured without lookinh at these things. These also can become idols if people are not careful. |
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bethany
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« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2005, 12:05:57 AM » |
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We should be able to think of Jesus on the cross and being tortured without lookinh at these things.
Just curious: what is the difference between picturing Jesus (on the cross or otherwise) in your mind, and making a painting/drawing/sculpture of how you're picturing Him? |
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bethany
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« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2005, 12:08:21 AM » |
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Yes, Bethany, I would, for the reasons listed above. For the record, I wasn't trying to put in an anonymous comment - I merely forgot to log in. Thanks for "outing" me, though.  Interesting ... I am still mulling about this one. |
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PaulDA
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« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2005, 12:39:07 AM » |
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Paul, if you were a true fundamentalist, you would be in support of symbols. It's all throughout the Bible Just as I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal in politics, I don't follow any 'label' in Christianity either. I may be 100% fundamentalist in some areas, and completely the opposite in others. |
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PaulDA
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« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2005, 12:40:51 AM » |
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We should be able to think of Jesus on the cross and being tortured without lookinh at these things.
Just curious: what is the difference between picturing Jesus (on the cross or otherwise) in your mind, and making a painting/drawing/sculpture of how you're picturing Him? Well, there is no difference really. There is nothing wrong with having a cross or crown of thorns or of even having a statue of Jesus. The danger lies when we start to subconsciously worship these icons instead of Jesus. We just have to be careful we don't put icons ahead of Jesus. |
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« Last Edit: July 27, 2005, 08:40:44 AM by PaulDA »
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Josh
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« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2005, 08:15:27 AM » |
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We should be able to think of Jesus on the cross and being tortured without lookinh at these things.
Just curious: what is the difference between picturing Jesus (on the cross or otherwise) in your mind, and making a painting/drawing/sculpture of how you're picturing Him? I would say that the difference is this: When you picture Jesus in your mind, you are-- hopefully-- being influenced only by His Word. But this image is corrupted by a fallen human imagination when icons enter into the picture, which is what leads to trouble. |
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bethany
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« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2005, 11:13:40 AM » |
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We should be able to think of Jesus on the cross and being tortured without lookinh at these things.
Just curious: what is the difference between picturing Jesus (on the cross or otherwise) in your mind, and making a painting/drawing/sculpture of how you're picturing Him? I would say that the difference is this: When you picture Jesus in your mind, you are-- hopefully-- being influenced only by His Word. But this image is corrupted by a fallen human imagination when icons enter into the picture, which is what leads to trouble. How can your imagined picture of Jesus be influenced only by the Word? There is absolutely no hint as to what he looked like, other than that He was Jewish and apparently not attractive ("there was nothing in His appearance to draw us to Him..."). If at any point you're imagining what Jesus looked like, then you're going to be influenced by fallen human imagination. |
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joeldavid
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« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2005, 11:21:50 AM » |
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« Last Edit: July 27, 2005, 11:23:51 AM by joeldavid »
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\"There is a connection between the strange providences of God and what we know of Him, and we have to learn to interpret the mysteries of life in the light of our knowledge of God. Unless we can look the darkest, blackest fact full in the face without damaging God's character, we do not yet know Him.\"
- Oswald Chambers, My Utmost for His Highest, July 29
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Josh
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« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2005, 11:28:06 AM » |
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I strongly disagree with the idea that it's all about motive, and that God really only cares about our intentions. The Old Testament is filled with examples of pholks who had very good intentions and sincerely wanted to worship God, but, because they did so in ways that were ultimately opposed to His commands, God rejected their worship and punished them!
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joeldavid
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« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2005, 12:35:40 PM » |
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« Last Edit: July 27, 2005, 09:00:13 PM by joeldavid »
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\"There is a connection between the strange providences of God and what we know of Him, and we have to learn to interpret the mysteries of life in the light of our knowledge of God. Unless we can look the darkest, blackest fact full in the face without damaging God's character, we do not yet know Him.\"
- Oswald Chambers, My Utmost for His Highest, July 29
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joeldavid
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« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2005, 01:16:14 PM » |
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Wow I guess I killed this discussion...
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\"There is a connection between the strange providences of God and what we know of Him, and we have to learn to interpret the mysteries of life in the light of our knowledge of God. Unless we can look the darkest, blackest fact full in the face without damaging God's character, we do not yet know Him.\"
- Oswald Chambers, My Utmost for His Highest, July 29
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phaith at work
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« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2005, 08:46:09 PM » |
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Wow I guess I killed this discussion... No you didn't...but I also don't want to contribute! I am reading though. |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2005, 09:26:34 PM » |
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In 2 Chronicles 30, verses 17-20 deal specifically with this issue. There were a large number of people worshipping God and offering sacrifices at the temple, despite the fact that they had not consecrated themselves (which I think means they were not ceremonially clean). King Hezekiah asked the Lord to overlook this because the hearts of the people were intent on him, and the Lord heard this and healed the people. However, I don't think this is a case of the motives being more important than the actions, I think this is a case of the Lord mercifully excusing the actions because of the motives of the people and because Hezekiah, the king and head of the people, knew the right way and honestly wanted to praise the Lord the right way.
I see no scriptural support for the use of icons or relics, and I do see verses which seem to say that their use is not pleasing to God. History will bear this out, as the veneration or even the use of such things has led the people of God and, later, the Church into heresy. This is because Christianity is ultimately about a relationship, and you don't have a relationship with an inanimate object. I don't need some statue or piece of cloth or splinter of wood to talk with my friends; I enjoy being with them and we interact with one another and love one another as people. How silly would it be if I brought a photograph of my friend or a little statue of one of my parents, and while I was talking to that person I talked to the picture or the statue, all while the person was standing or sitting right near me?
Historically relics and icons have been used as methods of taking control. "Well, if I pray to this saint or use this icon or kiss this relic, something good will happen." It's an attempt to formulate a relationship. Imagine you are married, and your spouse asks you nicely to do something, so you do it. But then your spouse says "wow, so that's what I need to say in order to get what I want." Then everytime your spouse wants something from you, he or she asks in exactly that way. It would get old fast and seem kind of silly, wouldn't it? This is what our funny, formulaic approaches to religion must look like to God. Christ is sitting there beside us saying "I want a relationship. I want a conversation. I just want to talk." And we bring out our icons and pray to our saints and do our little formulae. When we ask for something important we always say "In Jesus' Name" because of course if we ask in his name we will get it. And we're sitting there with our pictures and our statues, and Jesus is saying "hey, I'm over here." But we're to busy trying to take control, trying to put God in a box.
Maybe it doesn't seem like that to you. Phaith, maybe your icons seem like they're helping you communicate, not getting in the way. But although I'm certainly not anti-religious-art or anything like that, I think that a conversation with God should be just that, and I also think that when we realize that God is a wild, unpredictable lover who is passionate but not confined to formulae and won't always dance in the pattern we set for him, we will find that the relationship becomes less like a struggle and more like a partnership.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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PaulDA
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« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2005, 08:15:26 PM » |
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Wow I guess I killed this discussion... No you didn't. It's normall around here for threads, even new threads, to lie dormant.....sometimes for weeks at a time.   :bosh:  |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2005, 09:27:25 PM » |
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When it seems that I've killed a thread, I like to pretend that everyone is speechless due to the immense wisdom of my posts, which leaves nothing more to be said. Plus, here in my fantasy world, every day is Pie Day!
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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