Half Blood Prince SPOILER Discussion

[DvChWi]

I have received several PMs inviting me to discuss this book(sorry I didn't reply, guys, consider this thread a mass reply).  Since we have several people wanting to discuss the book, I figured this thread would be a good idea since there is some other discussion in the other thread that people might want to read without wading through spoilers.  So, IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK, STOP READING NOW!!!!!



Now, here is my big question about the book.  What was Dumbledore's ironclad reason for trusting Snape?  The reason given was that because Snape apologized and showed remorse for leaking the prophecy to Voldemort, and thus causing the death of Harry's parents.   Dumbledore now trusted him.  This, to me, seems like a very weak reason to trust someone with a track record like Snape's.  The idea that someone as wise as Dumbledore would fall for that seems very implausible.  In light of this, I have to wonder if there is something else going on, i.e., that wasn't the real Snape(Polyjuice Potion), he was being controlled(Imperius Curse), or something else similiar to that.  What do you guys think?

 

[bloop]

I discussed this with Janke, and we both came to the conclusion that Snape was doing what Dumbledore would have wanted him to do even when he killed him.  I believe Mike made an excellent point when he said to note Harry's expression when he's force-feeding Dumbledore and compare with Snape's.  It's unlike Dumbledore to beg for his life, thus he was perhaps trying to spare Draco in his own way, as well as increase Voldemort's trust in Snape.

[DvChWi]

I discussed this with Janke, and we both came to the conclusion that Snape was doing what Dumbledore would have wanted him to do even when he killed him.  I believe Mike made an excellent point when he said to note Harry's expression when he's force-feeding Dumbledore and compare with Snape's.  It's unlike Dumbledore to beg for his life, thus he was perhaps trying to spare Draco in his own way, as well as increase Voldemort's trust in Snape.

That's certainly possible, Dumbledore sacrificing himself so that they could get someone really close to Voldemort.  Since Dumbledore seemed to have an almost unbelievable level of trust in Snape, perhaps there's a grand plan at work that we know nothing about.  I still refuse to believe the explanation for Dumbledore's trust given in this book, so I certainly hope there's more to it.

Also, what would this thread be without some rampant horcrux speculation!  Is Harry himself a horcrux? The conditions surrounding his parents death, and the fact that he shares some qualities with Voldemort(wand, Parselmouth, etc.) seem to support this idea.  What do you think?  What else might be a good candidate for horcruxy? Also, do you think it's possible for the horcruxes to spread themselves by killing?  Sort of like a virus?

[Brenden]

Wow, this is just like the discussions that occured when I discussed my theory on the Entwives on a LOTR message board.

*LOTR Proud Fanatic*

Back to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress...

[bethany]

I'm definitely of the opinion that Dumbledore had more reason for trusting Snape than has been revealed. I think that for some reason, Dumbledore was pleading for Snape to kill him/protect Harry/do the right thing/whatever, not begging him not to kill him. There was some reason that Snape HAD to kill Dumbledore in that situation - and Dumbledore was willing to be sacrificed for the greater good. Perhaps keeping Snape close to Voldemort for Harry's sake is the plan - I dunno. But I do think that Rowling has invested too much time and effort into making Snape ambiguous and even at times sympathetic to make him as one-dimensional and eeeeevil as he seems at the end of HBP. Someone on another forum pointed out that even at the end, after he's killed Dumbledore, Snape is still protecting Harry, in a fashion. He keeps cutting him off, keeping him from completing the Unforgivable Curses. Snape was using legilimency on Harry; he knew what was coming, and he could easily have dodged the curses. Instead he was protecting Harry from damning himself by using the curses. As he leaves, he gives Harry more advice on that occlumency Harry still can't get the hang of - "keep your mind and mouth closed" or something to that effect. Hardly the straightforward actions of a purely evil character. I have faith in Rowling - it can't be that straight-forward.

It does seem that Harry may be a horcrux - but can you accidentally make a horcrux? We have to assume that Voldemort wasn't trying to make Harry a horcrux, or indeed doesn't know he is one (if he in fact is), or he wouldn't be trying to kill Harry. Perhaps he was intending to use the murder of the Potters to make a horcrux, but when things went wrong, instead of his soul going into whatever object it was he intended, it went into Harry instead? Hmm...

[bethany]

Wow, this is just like the discussions that occured when I discussed my theory on the Entwives on a LOTR message board.

*LOTR Proud Fanatic*

Back to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress...

So what's your theory? I'd love to hear it - start a new thread for it, please.

[RokrantheGreat]

One question I have is where is Rowling going to take the books from here? Originally I thought the plan was seven books, one per year at Hogwarts. But it appears that Harry isn't real interested in returning for his seventh year... so what now? Obviously there'll be at least one more book, but will it be a big wrap-up, with Harry finding all the horcruxes (sp?) and defeating the Big V and saving wizardom as we know it? Maybe one book per horcrux from now on? Or perhaps Harry will decide to finish at Hogwarts (with McGonagall as Headmistress?)- either defeating Voldemort in the process or going on to Auror training... which will give JK the chance for a few more books. What do you all think?

[DvChWi]

An interesting theory I read from this thread at another forum:

Sorry for bumping this up, but just a couple of things I wanted to point out.
I think Harry's relationship to Snape may be a bit more complicated than originally thought. Snape and Lily Evans (Harry's mother) may have had some kind of relationship.
A few points of support:
1. Lily was, according to Slughorn, the best potions maker in the class. Yet if Snape was as good at potions as his textbook makes him out to be, shouldn't he have been the better potions student? Perhaps the two of them shared the book.
2. In Snape's memory, when James and Sirius were picking on Snape and hanging him up by his ankles, Lily tried to defend Snape. Snape, in return, said a slur towards Lily, maybe because she divulged the information within Snapes book to James.
3. Rowling has stated before that Lily's back-story will play a large part in the seventh book, and that there will be a "huge" revelation about her.
This would also add another twist to Snape's love-hate (mostly hate) attitude towards Harry. While Snape obviously despises Harry, he has, on quite a few occasions, helped Harry out. On one hand, he's the son of his hated rival, James Potter; on the other hand, he's also the son of perhaps a former love interest, Lily Evans.
In addition, that supposed horrible remorse that he felt after telling Voldemort of the prophecy, if he actually felt it, might have been because he ended up getting Lily murdered. Could this be why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much? Because of his love for Lily and his guilt over getting her killed? After all, Dumbledore always said that love was the strongest kind of magic.
Thoughts?

 

[MJanke]

Just saw this thread.

You must, quite simply, visit this site: http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/

It is extremely well researched and thorough and, imho, totally convincing.

One question I have is where is Rowling going to take the books from here? Originally I thought the plan was seven books, one per year at Hogwarts. But it appears that Harry isn't real interested in returning for his seventh year... so what now? Obviously there'll be at least one more book, but will it be a big wrap-up, with Harry finding all the horcruxes (sp?) and defeating the Big V and saving wizardom as we know it? Maybe one book per horcrux from now on? Or perhaps Harry will decide to finish at Hogwarts (with McGonagall as Headmistress?)- either defeating Voldemort in the process or going on to Auror training... which will give JK the chance for a few more books. What do you all think?

Rowling has been quite clear in her interviews that book seven is the last HP book - as lovely as it would be to have more.

Speaking of interviews, after you visit the above site you have to read this interview. It's really long and in-depth, and she goes into great detail about all sorts of HP questions. But that's what makes it such a must-read: http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml

[bethany]

I don't buy that Dumbledore isn't dead, but I have said all along that Snape killed him on orders from Dumbledore himself.

[bloop]

I don't buy that Dumbledore isn't dead, but I have said all along that Snape killed him on orders from Dumbledore himself.

I'm with you Bethany (as much as I wish I could believe Dumbledore to be alive), but I suppose the evidence is there for Dumbledore to be alive if you want it to be.

[ThePurplePerson]

:copies from the CMC thread:

1) Ships. All my favorites, yayyyy. The end of Ginny/Harry was a la Spiderman, but she's too stubborn to not go out with him. And Ron-- KISS HER ALREADY. Lupin/Tonks was adorable, Fleur/Bill was mreh but I didn't care, really. Okay, girly moment over.

2) Snape. Euck. I'm hoping infinitely that he's as nasty as he seems, but something tells me that J.K. will have some plot twist that explains why he's good after all and he and Harry will make up like he and James never did. Maybe not, though-- it's rather late in the series for that.

3) Voldemort. I liked how it wasn't a yay let's have a showdown with Voldemort at the end plot. If she'd done that it would have been annoying and repetitive.

4) Hogwarts. I hope Harry goes back to Hogwarts really bad. Wonder who the new headmaster will be? And the [possible] new head of Gryffindor...

5) Horcruxes. So we have the locket [I'll bet Sirus's brother is RAB. RAB is also my initals. Weird.], the cup, the diary, the ring, something of Ravenclaw/Gryffindor's, possiblely the Snake... what would be a fascinating plotline would be if a PERSON was a Horcrux. We know from hearin Dumbledore talk about the snake that a living being can be one... what if Harry was one? That would be a fanscinating, sacrifical ending. Harry kills Voldie and then must kill himself so that Voldemort will cease to be immortal. Also... what if Neiville is a Horcrux? Voldemort did his homework, finds out that Neiville and Harry boh possibly fulfill the prophecy, decides he'll make Neiville a Horcrux and kill Harry, only the latter doesn't happen? That'd be a good ending too... Neiville's not enough of a main character for the whole world to revolt at his death, but it would be climatic, and he's the sacrifical type anyway.

6) Draco. So he has a heart after all. Maybe he'll turn good and betray his parents... t'would be interesting.

7) Dumbledore. I didn't want him to die, but he had too. Now Harry can be all independent and defeat Voldemort on his own and all that good stuff.

8) Percy. Still the world's biggest git.

9) New MoM. I hate him. The end.

10) Fred and George. Utterly hilarious as always. Wish we'd seen a bit more of them, though.

I liked this book... despite the death and etc. it seemed not quite as dark as OotP. However, for the first time, I don't like this one quite as much as the one before it... I liked CoS better than SS, PoA better than CoS and so on...  OotP is still my reigning favorite.

[ThePurplePerson]

An interesting theory I read from this thread at another forum:

Sorry for bumping this up, but just a couple of things I wanted to point out.
I think Harry's relationship to Snape may be a bit more complicated than originally thought. Snape and Lily Evans (Harry's mother) may have had some kind of relationship.
A few points of support:
1. Lily was, according to Slughorn, the best potions maker in the class. Yet if Snape was as good at potions as his textbook makes him out to be, shouldn't he have been the better potions student? Perhaps the two of them shared the book.
2. In Snape's memory, when James and Sirius were picking on Snape and hanging him up by his ankles, Lily tried to defend Snape. Snape, in return, said a slur towards Lily, maybe because she divulged the information within Snapes book to James.
3. Rowling has stated before that Lily's back-story will play a large part in the seventh book, and that there will be a "huge" revelation about her.
This would also add another twist to Snape's love-hate (mostly hate) attitude towards Harry. While Snape obviously despises Harry, he has, on quite a few occasions, helped Harry out. On one hand, he's the son of his hated rival, James Potter; on the other hand, he's also the son of perhaps a former love interest, Lily Evans.
In addition, that supposed horrible remorse that he felt after telling Voldemort of the prophecy, if he actually felt it, might have been because he ended up getting Lily murdered. Could this be why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much? Because of his love for Lily and his guilt over getting her killed? After all, Dumbledore always said that love was the strongest kind of magic.
Thoughts?

:copies again: ... a lot of people seem to be picking up on this...

The main thing that interested me on this was the first point: Harry is told he is good at Potions, and therefore reminds Sluggie of Lily. Why wouldn't Slughorn have said Harry reminded him of Snape-- Snape was obviously amazing at Potions? Lily must have been really good.

My theory is this: if you'll remember, when we see the flashback to James tormenting Snape, Lily gets extremely angry at James, and tells him to leave Snape along, seemingly more out of compassion for the underdog and revulsion at James's infantile behavior than out of any particuar fondness for Severus himself. I also got the feeling that that wasn't the first time Lily had told James off for picking on Severus. From various passages in the books we can also deduce that Snape was unpopular, and had few social skills-- he was an outcast, a reject, while James was Mr. Popularity... good at Quidditch, girls all over him, cool hair, the works.

What I see happening is Snape being very grateful to Lily [a pretty, moderately popular girl] sticking up for him when the popular guy is picking on him. She could have easily been flirting with James, endearing herself to him, or just walking away... but she risked her social standing to stick up for Snape. Snape is thankful, probably even has a crush on her. But being Snape, he has no idea how to repay her... so he helps her with potions, letting her in on the secrets of the Half Blood Prince. In her seventh year, she starts dating James, who Snape has always hated with a burning passion. Snape feels betrayed, thus sealing his hate for James, causing him to hate Lily, and of course, then Harry.

That would also help explain Snape's rage when he suspects Harry is using the book. It would bring all those painful memories of Lily back.

[PaulDA]

It's funny, even though I have no interest in reading the books, I find myself CONSTANTLY defending HP on various forums when people say their "it's magic therfore it's evil" schtick.