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« on: August 07, 2003, 10:36:26 PM » |
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http://www.mars-hill-forum.com/forumdoc/m070cont.htmlA debate with vitriolic insane Calvinist Fred Phelps. How is he misrepresenting what mainstream Calvinists actually believe?
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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Josh
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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2003, 08:06:08 PM » |
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I just had time to skim it, but here are a couple of off-the-cuff reactions:
First of all, I agree with him that God hates certain people. The Bible is very explicit about this, and there's really no room to negotiate that.
Having said that, God hates all homosexuals? No, I strongly doubt that. If this was the case then no homosexual would ever be saved, and I'm positive that there have been some homosexual Christians, not to mention Christians who used to be homosexuals.
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bloop
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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2003, 08:11:03 PM » |
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can you give quotes to show that God hates people and not their actions.
I know this is ad hominem, but you should probably check out "Addicted to Hate", which is a story of Phelps' life. It's quite...condemning really.
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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Josh
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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2003, 08:19:06 PM » |
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can you give quotes to show that God hates people and not their actions.
The one that comes to mind first is "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated." That's a pretty well-known verse, so I don't feel the need to track down the reference right now, but I will if you just don't believe me. =) Non-Calvinists that I know tend to soften the verse by saying, "Oh, what it really means is that God PREFFERED Jacob, or God liked Jacob slightly more," but it's all the same, and, frankly, that's one of those arguments that just strikes me as farfetched and absurd. |
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bloop
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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2003, 08:40:45 PM » |
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Yeah, no need to reference that (Malachi 1:2 I think), but I don't think "hated" is the appropriate word there, at least not applied toward the person of Esau. I say this given Esau's only less blessed life as compared with Jacob. His life, to my knowlege wasn't a total loss.
Perhaps the verse is speaking of the two in a more long-term sense...speaking of the status of their legacies as opposed to God's love or lack thereof for the people themselves. Otherwise, I have little choice but to see the Bible as a very contrary book to itself.
That's what I get from that verse anyway.
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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BigBird
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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2003, 12:30:50 PM » |
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i didn't read the article at all yet, but God hating homos? I doubt it. After all, Jesus showed love and forgiveness to that adulturous(sp?) woman. I don't remember, did she even ask for forgiveness!?
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BigBird
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« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2003, 12:55:48 PM » |
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Ok, I started looking at that site... I find it laughable. Are these people serious!?!?! God Hates America |
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bloop
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« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2003, 01:39:04 PM » |
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All too serious, yes . . . and that song is disgusting.
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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standman87
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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2003, 09:01:01 PM » |
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Otherwise, I have little choice but to see the Bible as a very contrary book to itself.
Here we go again... Why discuss the Bible if you think it so messed-up!? Sorry, I'm just irritated with the thought that people even hint at that God would make a book that is flawed. God does not hate homos but he hates all sin. God loves everyone until judgment day. |
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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Josh
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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2003, 09:02:44 PM » |
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God loves everyone until judgment day.
So God's love isn't eternal? Well that's discouraging... |
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standman87
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2003, 09:07:14 PM » |
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So God's love isn't eternal?
Well that's discouraging... For those who choose to live without God eternally, yes. God does not force anyone to continue a relationship with Him. |
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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Josh
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2003, 09:23:13 PM » |
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So God's love is only eternal under certain conditions. Ok.
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standman87
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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2003, 09:36:39 PM » |
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So God's love is only eternal under certain conditions. Ok. But what is your theory? Do you say that God hated those people (who are not going to enter Heaven) from the beginning? If not, when did God start hating those people - because (correct me if I'm wrong) you say that God hates the 'unelect'? My opinion is that God loves every single human being until the day of judgment, when some can decide to not let God love them - because they harbor their sin and will not give it up to Jesus, who promises to help every human being out of their own messes. God's love is unconditional upon this earth, but I guess I just came to the realization that we can choose to cut ourselves off from it for eternity, so in a sense God's love is conditional. (I'm thinking aloud if you haven't noticed...) What I ask of you is: isn't your view of His love make it look conditional, because those He loved at the beginning He now hates? |
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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Josh
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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2003, 10:02:46 PM » |
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God hates some people from the beginning and loves others from the beginning. He does not change His mind, as 1 Samuel tells us. So His love is eternal and unconditional.
Kudos on some good thoughts, Stanton.
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standman87
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2003, 11:15:15 PM » |
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God hates some people from the beginning and loves others from the beginning. He does not change His mind, as 1 Samuel tells us. So His love is eternal and unconditional.
Kudos on some good thoughts, Stanton. I think I know what you are saying but let me ask it one more time... So when "God so loved the world", He was talking about the 'elect'? |
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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Guest
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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2003, 10:30:26 AM » |
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That is the Calvinist stance.
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Josh
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2003, 11:09:29 AM » |
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So when "God so loved the world", He was talking about the 'elect'?
That's not really what John 3:16 means. Let me use an illustration from elsewhere in Scripture. By commanding Noah to build the ark, God saved the world; the world would not exist today if He had not done that. But God did NOT save all men without exception. He saved the world, but not all people. That's sort of what John 3:16 is about. The word "world" in that verse comes from the Greek "kosmos," which means "universe." It does NOT mean all people. The point of the verse is to show that Christ came for men of all races and nationalities- remember, Jesus is talking to a Pharisee. |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2003, 11:10:43 AM » |
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Yes, they usually bust out the specious and highly untenable argument that the word 'world' is a poor translation of the Greek word kosmos, since one of its (many) possible definitions is 'an orderly system'. So the Calvinists argue that the verse would be better phrased as "God loved His creation," suggesting that God sent Jesus to save some parts of His creation.
This argument is a fairly poor one (not that free will adherents don't come up with some shaky arguments on some points) for a number of reasons:
-Kosmos has a number of definitions, the most-used ones being the definitions that refer to either all of mankind or the unsaved. So the verse could easily be translated to mean "For God so loved mankind"
-The verse goes on to say "that whosoever believes in Him may not perish...", which suggests that the interpretation of kosmos in this passage is indeed one that refers to a body of people, not just 'an orderly system.'
-The verse itself portrays salvation as a covenant between God and man (love and sacrifice on God's part, belief and acceptance on Man's part) rather than an order from God to man (God forcing man into heaven or hell)
-The context of the verse is comparing Jesus to the serpent Moses lifted up to heal the Israelites. All who looked on the serpent would be healed, but each man was free to not look on the serpent if he chose. None were forced to look, and none were forcibly prevented from looking.
Looks like we've gotten a little off-topic, but I'd rather debate Calvinism than discuss Phelps any day.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2003, 11:22:07 AM » |
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-Kosmos has a number of definitions, the most-used ones being the definitions that refer to either all of mankind or the unsaved. So the verse could easily be translated to mean "For God so loved mankind"
But how do we know which definition of kosmos really fits here? I suppose we really don't, though it is worth mentioning that there are several other instances of the word kosmos appearing in John, and each time it is translated as "the universe" or "an orderly system." For example, Jesus comments that the world will be saved, but it's obvious that all men without exception will not be saved... -The verse goes on to say "that whosoever believes in Him may not perish...", which suggests that the interpretation of kosmos in this passage is indeed one that refers to a body of people, not just 'an orderly system.'
Yes, I agree. It refers to the entire human race. I don't adhere to the "orderly system" translation, myself, you know. -The verse itself portrays salvation as a covenant between God and man (love and sacrifice on God's part, belief and acceptance on Man's part) rather than an order from God to man (God forcing man into heaven or hell)
No arguments here, though I will repeat (humor me) that only the elect CAN accept Christ, because only the elect are given faith. |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2003, 11:50:00 AM » |
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But how do we know which definition of kosmos really fits here? I suppose we really don't, though it is worth mentioning that there are several other instances of the word kosmos appearing in John, and each time it is translated as "the universe" or "an orderly system." For example, Jesus comments that the world will be saved, but it's obvious that all men without exception will not be saved... Are you referring to the part later in that same passage where He says "I did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save it"? Assuming the word 'world' there still uses kosmos, I think it's a legitimate interpretation to say 'I did not incarnate into the [universe] to condemn [all men] but to save [them].' Certainly not all men will be saved, but all men CAN be. Yes, I agree. It refers to the entire human race. I don't adhere to the "orderly system" translation, myself, you know Sorry for misrepresenting you, then. Earlier on the old forum, you used that against me. Obviously you've changed your mind since then, which is perfectly fine (I do it all the time...). |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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standman87
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« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2003, 03:40:52 PM » |
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Josh your belief of God giving us faith is perfectly fine, but we still have to choose God with that faith, so as I have said in other topic, predestination and free will could both be right if they dont effect how we act! I beg of everyone to discuss how the beliefs in predestination and free will differ in their actions towards God's will. Do the predestinationists really believe that free-will believers will go to Hell? Do the 'free-willers' really believe that predestination believers will go to Hell? I can tell you that I answer both of those questions with no's.
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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Vlad!
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« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2003, 03:47:52 PM » |
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As I have stated before, I don't think God get's all upset about doctrinal points. That's not to say that we should just throw the Bible out the window and believe whatever, but I don't think that I'm right and everyone else who believes something different will BURN (thinking that is Fred Phelps' job). There's no written exam to get into heaven.
And just because two opposing viewpoints don't affect our everyday actions doesn't mean they're both right (certainly not! That's impossible. Though they could both be wrong...) or even that they're irrelevant.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2003, 03:51:29 PM » |
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Josh your belief of God giving us faith is perfectly fine, but we still have to choose God with that faith I agree with you here, but would add the following: 1. God only gives the elect faith, therefore there are some people who cannot possibly choose Christ. 2. Those who are given faith WILL use it. They will not reject Christ if they are given the faith. |
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murlough23
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« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2003, 07:29:15 PM » |
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Man, I really hate to get back into this debate, but I promised myself not to shy away from it if I had honest questions that were still bugging me.
You what I thought about today? I can't bring myself to believe in predestination because there's some inherent part of me that can't follow a belief system that doesn't give everyone a fair shake. So you could say, I feel like I have compassion on those people who God supposedly hates. But how is that possible? How could I possibly have more compassion for an individual than God has for that person?
There are probably tons of loopholes in that question. But I still think it's a valid jumping-off point for some of my problems with predestination. Overall, most of my problems with freewill have been adequately reiterated by Josh... but I don't buy all of the stupid "world" semantics, and those objections aren't enough to convince me to join Calvin's team.
NP: "So Shall It Be", Cool Hand Luke
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kelliBJo
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« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2003, 03:10:35 AM » |
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i don't generally post on this board, and i want to respect views and not form a huge debate on something i don't claim to understand, but i do have a question for calvinists, too: why would God even bother CREATING those people that he 'predestined for hell' and 'hates'? i mean doesn't that seem unspeakably cruel? what's the point? i mean how can it be their fault then that they're in hell? if God predestined them to it, doesn't that make it the creator's fault?  i'm just confused with this view, that's all. i know ev.one has debated on the topic a lot and i've purposely stayed out of it, but i just needed to throw that out. ... me go to bed now... |
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\"broken down/ we're all so broken down/ bandages on our wings/ i know i don't have to tell you/ only broken hearts can sing\" ~ Over the Rhine
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bloop
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« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2003, 08:59:29 AM » |
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My problems with Calvinism are basically the same as David's. I don't have much of a problem limiting God to only full knowledge of present and past because, in my opinion, that's all there actually is to know. God can do everything, but I don't think he drops humans into a celestial coin sorter at the start.
It seems entirely against the character of God and, if taken to the extreme as Phelps does, adherents sometimes become unloving as well.
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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Josh
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« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2003, 09:17:47 AM » |
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why would God even bother CREATING those people that he 'predestined for hell' and 'hates'? The Bible refers to such people as "vessels of destruction." They are created to accomplish God's work and reveal His glory. i mean how can it be their fault then that they're in hell? They sinned. They screwed up. They deserve it. The elect deserve it as well, but they are shown mercy. if God predestined them to it, doesn't that make it the creator's fault? No. Such people choose Hell on their own. God just lets them do it. And, as you Arminians are so fond of saying, this is the mark of a truely loving God; He lets them choose death without helping them. Choice is, after all, more important than where one spends eternity. |
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DvChWi
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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2003, 02:47:55 PM » |
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Do the predestinationists really believe that free-will believers will go to Hell? Do the 'free-willers' really believe that predestination believers will go to Hell? No on both of those. It is still good to try to get to the truth, if we can, though. One thing about these kind of debates is that so much stuff is thrown out there, its hard to really address it all. So, I have been kicking back, and letting Josh to the hard work for me.  I am trying to come up with a killer statement that nobody can get around, but I'm having a hard time. [_[ And yes, I believe God is perfectly fair in doing whatever he wants. If he didn't offer salvation at all, that would still be fair. If you think that this kind of behavior would be against God's character, see the OT for may examples of "unfair" behavior by God. |
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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BigBird
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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2003, 03:53:27 PM » |
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Do the predestinationists really believe that free-will believers will go to Hell? Do the 'free-willers' really believe that predestination believers will go to Hell? Hell no. Hell no. [...that David, he's a funny guy, eh?] |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2003, 03:54:23 PM » |
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They sinned. They screwed up. They deserve it. The elect deserve it as well, but they are shown mercy. Yeah, well, if we are all totally depraved by nature, that means God made us that way. Thus, it's not our sin that sends us to hell (in your view), it's the way God made us. So He is condemning us for something He put into us. This isn't just, this is madness. No. Such people choose Hell on their own. God just lets them do it. And, as you Arminians are so fond of saying, this is the mark of a truely loving God; He lets them choose death without helping them. Choice is, after all, more important than where one spends eternity. Shall I remind you of this statement next time you get all sigh-y about how free willers make snide remarks about Calvinism? The truth (assuming we're still interested in such things) is that my belief (I can't speak for anyone else, though) is that God DOES help us...but He still lets us choose death. He does it all, and if we refuse to accept it He won't force us. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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murlough23
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« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2003, 04:34:49 PM » |
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My question still hasn't been addressed.
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Josh
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« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2003, 07:39:59 PM » |
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My question still hasn't been addressed. Woops, sorry, David. These debates move so quickly that it's easy to miss things from time to time. Thanks for your....uh... subtle hint. I can't bring myself to believe in predestination because there's some inherent part of me that can't follow a belief system that doesn't give everyone a fair shake. A "fair shake" at grace and mercy? These things are undeserved. There's really no good reason why God should give ANY of us these things, because we certainly haven't earned them. You're saying that God is being unfair be giving people what they deserve, and that doesn't make sense. So you could say, I feel like I have compassion on those people who God supposedly hates. But how is that possible? How could I possibly have more compassion for an individual than God has for that person?
Well, God could obviously choose to have a million times more compassion on the reprobates than we do, but He doesn't. He instead commands us to love and witness to all, and I'm not sure I see the problem with this, truth be told. |
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murlough23
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« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2003, 08:03:00 PM » |
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A "fair shake" at grace and mercy? These things are undeserved. There's really no good reason why God should give ANY of us these things, because we certainly haven't earned them. You're saying that God is being unfair be giving people what they deserve, and that doesn't make sense. Perhaps "fair shake" is a poor choice of words. What I mean to say is that it doesn't sit right with me that Joe Atheist, a depraved sinful human whose actions are just as offensive to God as mine are, isn't offered the same shot at salvation that I am. That grieves me. More than just grieving me, it doesn't make sense. It's arbitrary. I realize that none of us deserve it, but all being on the same playing field, there is no rational reason to only afford mercy to some. What I'm saying is that God would be wildly inconsistent if your model were true. Mind you, He would if freewill were true (at least, as the common freewiller understands it to be), so I guess I'm at an impasse. And don't give me that silly stuff about how it's not my place to understand God's reasons for choosing me and not the next guy. If that were true, it wouldn't be my place to know a darn thing about God, but obviously He reveals quite a bit about Himself to us, so I think it's fair to want to know that reason, which has not yet been supplied. If I can see no acceptable reason for something, not even one that can be supplied by those who believe it, then I won't believe it. NP: "Only You", David Crowder Band |
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standman87
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« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2003, 10:47:50 PM » |
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The only question I seem content on getting from this conversation:
How does a believer in predestination act different than a believer in free will (or is there a difference)?
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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Josh
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« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2003, 10:55:32 PM » |
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The only question I seem content on getting from this conversation:
How does a believer in predestination act different than a believer in free will (or is there a difference)? How DOES a Calvinist act differently? Well, statistically, Calvinists do more in the way of foreign missions than non-Calvinists. But how SHOULD they behave differently? Well, I don't think there should be any differences. Other than the way we think about the Bible and theology, the two groups shouldn't act differently, as far as I can tell. Both groups should be committed to prayer, worship, witnessing, etc. |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2003, 07:47:08 AM » |
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Perhaps "fair shake" is a poor choice of words. What I mean to say is that it doesn't sit right with me that Joe Atheist, a depraved sinful human whose actions are just as offensive to God as mine are, isn't offered the same shot at salvation that I am. That grieves me. More than just grieving me, it doesn't make sense. It's arbitrary. I realize that none of us deserve it, but all being on the same playing field, there is no rational reason to only afford mercy to some. That's a good way of putting it, David. By saying it's 'unfair,' I don't mean that God is somehow forced to offer grace to everyone. I asked this before, Josh, but I want to be sure that what I think you believe is what you actually believe: do you think that Adam and Eve were totally depraved the way you believe the rest of us are? Did they really have a choice, or were they incapable of doing the right thing and rejecting the serpent? |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2003, 09:08:33 AM » |
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do you think that Adam and Eve were totally depraved the way you believe the rest of us are? Yes, I think they were. Did they really have a choice, or were they incapable of doing the right thing and rejecting the serpent? It was their choice. Totally. God just chose not to intervene, thereby making it impossible for them to reject the serpent, but He wasn't really FORCING them to do anything. |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2003, 09:49:17 AM » |
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But then if God created Adam and Eve as incapable of making a good choice, then it's not their fault that they made the wrong choice. And, therefore, the Fall and our own sinfulness is a direct result of the way God created us. So to send us to hell isn't what we deserve, it's just a big farce wherein some are punished for a thing they have no control over and some are saved from God's anger at the way He made His creation. If I write a program that is flawed and crashes, it's not the program's fault. Yes, it DID crash, but if as the programmer I introduced those flaws myself, why should I be angry at the program for doing what I told it to do? It couldn't do anything else!
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2003, 10:20:23 AM » |
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Actually, you may be right on that one. I'll talk to my pastor about it on Sunday.
A quick scan of some related Scriptures shows several places in the Bible (Romans 5 has a few verses) that indicate that we all became sinful "through the disobedience of one man." Which would indicate that things were a little different with Adam.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2003, 11:25:37 AM » |
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A quick scan of some related Scriptures shows several places in the Bible (Romans 5 has a few verses) that indicate that we all became sinful "through the disobedience of one man." Which would indicate that things were a little different with Adam. That would raise some interesting questions in itself, but I think that even if Calvinism is generally true, Adam was created in a state of originality (my own word, and in contrast to a state of depravity), and (depending on his choices) he could either have moved to a state of complete community with God (I have to assume that God would at some point stop throwing blatant temptations at Man) or a state of depravity. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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