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Josh
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« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2003, 11:29:40 AM » |
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I have to assume that God would at some point stop throwing blatant temptations at Man God certainly told man what was okay and what was our of bounds, but did He really TEMPT us? Did He have much of anything to do with the serpent? |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2003, 12:08:58 PM » |
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Well, He put something in the garden that Man wasn't supposed to eat. Maybe He Himself wasn't tempting man actively, but when someone gives a person full access to something he or she is not supposed to access, it's a temptation.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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murlough23
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« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2003, 02:03:55 PM » |
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It was their choice. Totally. God just chose not to intervene, thereby making it impossible for them to reject the serpent, but He wasn't really FORCING them to do anything. Okay, sure. I'm not going to force you to drown, I'm just going to throw you in a lake, take away your ability to swim, and decide not to offer you any floatation devices! Sheesh. This is like the difference between murder and manslaughter. |
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Matt Clement
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« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2003, 10:05:33 AM » |
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Psalm 5:5-6 is quite explicit in reference to this, "The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man." Also in Psalm 11, "The LORD tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. Upon the wicked He will rain coals; fire and brimstone and a burning wind shall be the portion of their cup" (vv. 5-66). This must also be qualified by the rest of Scripture however. There is hardly a verse in the Bible that can be read without consideration of the surrounding context and other passages in the Bible that relate. Our Sacred Text is not compartmentalized by the superscripted verse numbers-- it is one flowing whole. Just because God hates the wicked-- which the Scripture is clear about-- does not mean that forgiveness and salvation is not offered. "'Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,' says the Lord GOD. 'Repent, and turn from all your transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,' says the Lord God. 'Therefore turn and live!'" (Ez. 18:30-32)
This is where we see that the Bible is not like a systematic theology. It is messy and not compartmentalized into neat little sections. To say that God hates a specific person is meddling in the secret things (Dt. 29:29)-- things which we have no business to meddle in. Is what sodomites do an abomination? Absolutely. Are they a provocation in the nostrils of God? Yes. "Therefore repent and live," should be our response. Jesus was never harsh against the repentant sinner, rather he was harsh against wind-bag theologians who thought they knew it all. We don't and we can't. All we can do is live faithfully to the covenant God has made with us. Am I saying to scorn theology? No, of course not. I am a historic Reformed, Presbyterian, postmillenial, Calvinist to the core. I love the theological greatness of Charles Hodge, Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Edwards, Berkhof, Bavinck, Kuyper, Van Til, Bahnsen, and Rushdoony. But they all conceived of something that we sometimes do not. We must condemn sin, but we must not become so indignant that we refuse to offer the good news after the bad. James tells us that the Law serves to point to Christ and he who looks to the perfect law of liberty and does rather than hears and forgets is the true man of God. God did not give us law because He hates us, but because He loves us and wants to keep us from sin (Ex. 20:18-21). While theology and academics are undeniably important, James also tells us what pure and undefiled religion are-- visiting orphans and taking care of widows. Not abstract, ethereal, armchair theology.
Theology must come out our fingertips. If we do not live like Christians we deny all that we claim as Christians. We must condemn sin with all our might, but on the other hand, we must conclude like Paul that if we have not love we are but clanging cymbals. Like men screaming in the dark.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2003, 11:40:41 AM » |
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Fair enough. And I would tend to agree with most of what you say. But you claim that "If we do not live like Christians we deny all that we claim as Christians." Does this mean you reject the Calvinist doctrine of the total depravity of man? Josh tells me that I, in myself, am incapable of doing anything good or righteous on my own. He hasn't gotten back to me on Adam and Eve yet, but I assume this doctrine applies to everyone. So how can you be a 'Calvinist to the core' and yet admonish the believers to live like Christians? According to what you (supposedly) believe, that's like telling a pig to fly!
Not to say that I reject your words (I myself do not believe in most of the Calvinist doctrine, so I have no problem with what you say). The admonition regarding windbag theologians is well worth remembering.
Another question I have is in reference to your citation of Deut 29:29. The mention of 'secret things' is pretty much out of the blue there, so I don't know exactly what it's referring to, but I don't think God is one to smile patronizingly and tell us we wouldn't understand. Certainly there is much that we do not understand, but why would He give us the Bible and say the things He says if he wants us to live in ignorance? Claiming secret knowledge is gnostic heresy, and has been firmly opposed by many different New Testament writers.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2003, 02:56:58 PM » |
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So how can you be a 'Calvinist to the core' and yet admonish the believers to live like Christians? According to what you (supposedly) believe, that's like telling a pig to fly!
Well, we CAN live as Christians, but only through the Holy Spirit. So it's possible, but not apart from God playing a direct role in shaping our hearts. That's my take, anyway, and I assume that Matt would agree. Those were good words, by the way, Matt. |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2003, 03:07:59 PM » |
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Well, we CAN live as Christians, but only through the Holy Spirit. So it's possible, but not apart from God playing a direct role in shaping our hearts. God can also cause pigs to fly (as He sort of did when He drove evil spirits into a herd of pigs, heh), but telling the pig to fly on its own still makes no sense. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2003, 03:23:50 PM » |
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That's not a totally correct analogy. Matt was addressing Christians- people who already have the Holy Spirit in them. So it's like urging a pig with wings to fly. Because the pig has been given what it takes to obey your request.
And this conversation has suddenly become really weird... =)
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