Rebecca St. James new album

[murlough23]

Falling Up did get an honorable mention, though, and that was a decent album.

I'm learning to appreciate it more as I listen to it. I still think it's a big letdown compared to their first.

But again, Switchfoot does not deserve a number 1 spot.

In terms of album that got a decent amount of attention in mainstream CCM this year, though, what would you expect to see at the top? While it does indicate that they don't get out much, at least they picked one of the best mainstream CCM albums of the year. It's certainly better than everything else they put on their list (my still-forming opinion of RSJ's album notwithstanding).

NP: "Do Not Move", David Crowder Band

[Brenden]

I'm learning to appreciate it more as I listen to it. I still think it's a big letdown compared to their first.

I think the same.

In terms of album that got a decent amount of attention in mainstream CCM this year, though, what would you expect to see at the top? While it does indicate that they don't get out much, at least they picked one of the best mainstream CCM albums of the year. It's certainly better than everything else they put on their list (my still-forming opinion of RSJ's album notwithstanding).

True. I guess I mainly expect CCM people to pick things more explicity CCM-ish.

[murlough23]

True. I guess I mainly expect CCM people to pick things more explicity CCM-ish.

I do think that if Switchfoot had put out the exact same albums but not on a mainstream label, and they hadn't attained any mainstream recognition, these Christian music publications wouldn't be falling all over themselves to lick the band's butt by putting them at #1. I like the album, and think they deserve to be somewhere on that list, but the #1 placement speaks less to the actual quality of the album and more to the fact that we'll cling desperately to anything that might prove to the outside world that Christian music is cool. People jumped on a similar badnwagon (though not quite to the same extent due to the more extreme musical style) with P.O.D. a few years ago.

NP: "When Did You Fall?", Chris Rice

[PaulDA]

I just checked it out. Holy freakin' crap, you're right.

Falling Up did get an honorable mention, though, and that was a decent album. But again, Switchfoot does not deserve a number 1 spot.

That is your opinion, and maybe the opinion of a few others on here.
Believe it or not *gasp*, the views of people on ThePhorum don't necessarily jive with the views of the entire CCM buying public.

[murlough23]

Believe it or not *gasp*, the views of people on ThePhorum don't necessarily jive with the views of the entire CCM buying public.

No!!!!! Really?

I kinda thought the whole point of The Phorum (and The Rebel Base, from which it was derived) was that it was a meeting place to discuss the arts from a Christian worldview, but to try to look more deeply at music, film, at etc. than most Christians (and most people) usually do. I'm thinking that this also means more deeply than the majority of the CCM buying public as well, them being (mostly) a subset of Christians, who are in turn a subset of people.

So yes, you're right, and duh, of course we know that. That's why this Phorum exists.

Explain one thing to me, Paul... how can you think that the majority of CCM buyers must be right if you think that the majority of Christians in general must be wrong (i.e. they're not really Christians)? What this comes down to, once again, is your assumption that anyone who buys CCM must be a "real" Christian.

[PaulDA]

Explain one thing to me, Paul... how can you think that the majority of CCM buyers must be right if you think that the majority of Christians in general must be wrong (i.e. they're not really Christians)? What this comes down to, once again, is your assumption that anyone who buys CCM must be a "real" Christian.

I take no joy in my opinion that most people who profess Christianity are not truly saved.
I don't want to believe that.
But Jesus Himself said it:
"Narrow is the road to salvation and FEW find it.....wide is the road to destruction and MANY (means 'most' in this context comparing it to 'few') find it."
The people I am speaking of who probably are not save yet call themselves Christians are mostly people who are nominal Christians. Who throw the term Christian around loosly. However, jesus even said that people who claim Him as Lord, who heal, who cast out demons, many of them are not truly saved either and He will tell them to begone to the Lake of Fire.
So it seems that more people who claim to be Christians will end up in hell then in heaven.
That said, I would imagine that most people who want to listen to Christian music are probably saved, because an unsaved person would have no desire to hear about Jesus in music. It's possible a person can be drawn by the Holy Ghost and not yet saved, and if they died that night they would end up in Hell imo. That would be sad, a person on the verge of accepting Jesus as Savior dies before He/she actually makes that committment.

[Brenden]

The people I am speaking of who probably are not save yet call themselves Christians are mostly people who are nominal Christians. Who throw the term Christian around loosly. However, jesus even said that people who claim Him as Lord, who heal, who cast out demons, many of them are not truly saved either and He will tell them to begone to the Lake of Fire.

Yeah, I figure there's a lot of people who say their a christian, but it's a superficail faith, and doesn't make much difference in their life.

That said, I would imagine that most people who want to listen to Christian music are probably saved, because an unsaved person would have no desire to hear about Jesus in music.

Question, would you say it's possible to think you're saved, go through all the motions, but on some level you really don't believe it? It's possible that people like that would listen to CCM.

 

It's possible a person can be drawn by the Holy Ghost and not yet saved, and if they died that night they would end up in Hell imo. That would be sad, a person on the verge of accepting Jesus as Savior dies before He/she actually makes that committment.

Maybe, I'm just gonna let that be up to God. I wonder if someone can be saved, by believing in their heart, even before they admit it to themselves.

[danny316]

Danny's new expression: 

Actually, I think this post will be fun to refute, rather than just getting shocked. Few things shock me anymore anyway, and we established back in the "Top 50 Albums thread" that we don't agree on music that often anyway.

I'm just not as big a fan of older music (I can't fault them for not having as good production values back then, but I am a bit spoiled when it comes to actually listening to music with decent production values), so while I can obviously see the artistic merits and influence that artists like Miles Davis, the Beach Boys, and James Brown have had, I probably wouldn't personally feel as strongly about their watershed albums as your average music guru.

This seems fair enough...some of the sounds can be pretty dated. I mean, U2's "War" for example, sounds quite "old" today. I noticed you posted your review of that album under the "Gold disc" catagory - do you really have that remaster, and does it help with some of the dated feel?

The only problem with just being spoiled by modern production values is that it forgets why we have those modern production values. Current sounds are informed by earlier ones. I think any critic should try to get some idea of the "classics" at some point or another, if they want to remain credible in comparing new artists to older ones.

...which brings to my big point here. Some artists and albums are revered because the artists were using different methods of production and recording. Read up a bit on what Brian Wilson was doing in the Pet Sounds era, or on some of the stuff that Phil Spector used to do, and I think you might be surprised how "modern" some of the techniques sound. They generally don't sound as "old" as other music from that era, and those innovations in sound are part of why those artists are considered great in the first place.

There's also something to be said for the Beatles and some of their odd recording techniques, but truth be told, that was less innovation than it was drug use.

Enjoyment is a highly subjective thing, which is why I generally won't rate anything lower than a 3 or 3.5 for an album that has a lot of critical acclaim but that I personally just can't get into (my personal favorite example being Wilco's Yankee Hotel Foxtrot). I can recognize good intentions and artistic milestones achieved, but individual results vary, and I need to be honest about that.

Fair enough. No one said you had to like every album that's widely respected. Similarly, not everyone has to respect anything that any one person likes (although, I bet everyone has some "it would have been a classic if more people had heard it!" albums to mention).

I probably wouldn't rate something lower just due to its age, but I would admit to enjoying it less, if that makes any sense.

I have to admit that that's quite fair. Again though, the modern techniques your used to were invented by older musicians anyway, so there are some albums that should stand as exceptions here.

Anyway, Paul not even knowing what Pet Sounds was, and the influence that an album like that has likely had on a lot of modern pop music, is kind of similar to some of us not knowing how James Brown influenced a lot of modern music.

...which just goes to show that none of us really knows all that much about music.

At the same time, I now know and respect that about both James Brown and the Beach Boys, but it doesn't mean that I must suddenly dig into both artists' back catalogues and declare them my favorites. I'm just personally more interested in evaluating what's being produced nowadays, and finding new personal classics to tell people about.
 

Who said anything about digging into back catalogues? I love Pet Sounds, but to be honest, I don't feel a need to buy every surf-pop thing they ever put out. If it were all that good, there wouldn't such a clearly defined classic (although, this breaks down as soon as someone mentions The Beatles, since cases can be made for Rubber Soul, Revolver, Sgt Pepper, and The White Album...). Between the albums that are heralded as classics at least partially for innovation in recording/production techniques, and the albums that have been remastered well (bloop brought up Miles Davis here), I really don't see any reason to completely skip out on older music.

Although, I'm sure there were some terrible bands back then too. We just aren't still talking about them.

[murlough23]

I take no joy in my opinion that most people who profess Christianity are not truly saved.

I know... we've been over this many times... I understand your position regarding this, and I don't disagree with it, for the most part.

That said, I would imagine that most people who want to listen to Christian music are probably saved, because an unsaved person would have no desire to hear about Jesus in music.

And yet they would have a desire to go to church?

Look, people do things sometimes that they think are the good, right "Christian" things to do... it doesn't automatically mean they're actually committed to the Christian faith. They may just be trying to be a "good person". Granted, your average hostile atheist isn't going to listen to Jesus-heavy person, but some people listen to Gospel or even your regular CCM worship music just because they like the sound or mood of the music. Or popular stuff like Switchfoot where not everyone who likes it is a Christian (after all, if CCM is modelling itself after popular mainstream styles, it stands to reason that they're hoping some non-Christians will listen to it). There are plenty of reasons why people could be buying Christian music might not necessarily be Christians. Most of 'em probably are - but we haven't determined that they're mature Christians, necessarily.

And I'm actually going to go one step beyond your belief that most of the 85% of this country who claims to be Christians aren't really saved, and say that even a good number of the saved are probably still in the baby or child stages of faith. That's not necessarily a diss to all those people - everyone has to go through that phase at some point, and if we're doing a decent job of evangelizing and people are converting in great numbers, it stands to reason there'll be a lot of very new Christians out there. There may be others (and I do suspect there are a lot) who don't grow past that point, spiritually speaking, because they aren't really encouraged to do so by the community that they're in or the music they're listening to.

What's my point here? It's simply that the things that are liked/valued by the majority of Christians out there are not necessarily the "best" things. They're often not bad things - how popular they are honestly has very little to do with their inherent worth. I tend to judge by the opinions of mature and thoughtful Christians - of course, that's a matter of opinion regarding who even fits the criteria. But I'm not going to assume something is awesome and deserves to be showered with awards just because it's popular. When it comes down to it, a lot of what the Bible has to say, what God wants to teach us, is quite unpopular, even among the already converted. Let's not make the mistake of thinking "majority rules".

(Not to say that RSJ, Switchfoot, etc. are bad music, or only fit for immature Christians. I like them both, as well as plenty of other popular artists. I'm just saying that being popular does not inherently make their music excellent.)

It's possible a person can be drawn by the Holy Ghost and not yet saved, and if they died that night they would end up in Hell imo. That would be sad, a person on the verge of accepting Jesus as Savior dies before He/she actually makes that committment.

This is off-topic, but you're right. However, I believe that God is good and it would be a bit of a waste to get that close and then let the person die. God is sovereign; I'm willing to believe that those who seek will be given ample opportunity to find. They could choose to resist it, I suppose, and die unsaved, but if someone's genuinely in that seeking process, I'd surmise that God would give them the time as a mortal to work it out. I can't back that up Scripturally (a Scriptural study of this scenario would be interesting, though); it's just a feeling I get because I know God isn't cruel.

NP: "Let My Words Be Few (live)", Matt Redman

[murlough23]

Maybe, I'm just gonna let that be up to God. I wonder if someone can be saved, by believing in their heart, even before they admit it to themselves.

I've wondered about that, too. I know that God knows my heart before I put my thoughts into words. I know that the Holy Spirit interprets our "groanings" and prays on our behalf when we have no clue what to even say. That's why I often ask questions about the very nature of what it is that saves us. Is it the conscious formation of a belief in Jesus' act of salvation? Or is it Jesus' act itself? Is the requirement that I believe not some sort of "work" on my part? I'm not saved by works, right? Can my heart be turned towards God, effectively "accepting" that gift of salvation or however you want to term it, without my mind fully realizing it?

Shoot, what about a retarded person, who may not even be capable of grasping the basic notions presented in the Bible? What's God's provision for them?

Deep questions that likely deserve their own thread.

NP: "Lord, Let Your Glory Fall (live)", Matt Redman

[PaulDA]

And yet they would have a desire to go to church?
 

To answer this quickly:
Going to church is 'accepted' by many people who call themselves Christians or whose family has always been Christians. Many people go to church as a habit that they grew up doing.
Listening to CCM, however, is not accepted by most Christians and is more of a reaching out on a Christian's part to listen to Christian music instead of following tradition. Ofcourse some kids can get in the habit of listening to CCM because their parents do, and they may not be saved.
Hey, no one knows who is saved and who isn't no matter what their fruits are, except for God, and we can just go by what Jesus said, and imo He said most people who profess Christianity are not saved. 'Few find it' to me, means (at least) less than 1/4 of everyone, so less than half of 85% is at least 21.25%.*shrugs*

[murlough23]

OK, I can accept that the majority of folks (but not all of them) who buy CCM are Christians (though your definition of "few" is extremely arbitrary). That still doesn't mean they're all mature Christians (I'd like to see you address my claim that most of the church is made up of "baby Christians"), or that the majority opinion among them is necessarily something that should carry a lot of weight.

Paul, aren't there ways in which your opinions differ from the majority of Christians - and I mean the "saved" ones, not the "cultural" ones? Take CMCentral's forums, for example. We can argue about whether that's a good statistical sampling of CCM buyers, but I'd think it's a decent cross-section, perhaps tending toward the younger listeners just by virtue of the fact that more young people use the Internet. How many times have you differed from the majority opinion on that site? Perhaps not regarding the quality of Christian music... but certainly on other issues. If "majority rules" is not how you form your opinions regarding those other issues, then how does it suddenly become a valid way to back up your claims about what music is good?

Popularity, in general, doesn't really make a good case for whether something is right or has lasting value.

Now, to get this back on topic, I think that RSJ makes good music, generally speaking. However, I would hold that the fact that she is popular has nothing to do with whether she makes good music. The quality and popularity just happen to coincide in her case, because we've seen that the mass audience will not always be drawn to the best thing; rather, they'll be drawn to what is most heavily advertised and within easiest reach (both in terms of physically getting their hands on it, and in terms of accessibility when listening to it).