Motives vs. Actions

[beautifulmess]

[Vlad!]

Just got out of a math class, so this might look suspiciously like a proof

So the question is, if you don't want to, why are you tithing in the first place? Probably because you feel like you have to. OK, fine, but why do you feel like you have to? Probably because it says in the Bible to give the firstfruits of your labor to God, and because if you grew up in the church you've been told that it's just What Godly People Do. But why would God tell us to tithe? The greatest command in the Bible is Love God. You give gifts to people that you love, and additionally the Bible says that if you love God you will obey His commands. So the problem here I think is not an unwillingness to tithe (to continue your example) but someone who is living the Christian life by a formula rather than out of love. The formula says 'tithe' so the person feels pressure to tithe even though the true significance of the tithe is lost. It's like a gift given out of obligation: sure maybe you can still use the gift, but there's no love behind it.

So I think the answer to your question is yes: it matters more that you love God and you want to obey his commands and contribute to his work rather than that you actually plunk your cash in the offering plate each week.

[bethany]

I agree with Vlad, but I would also say that sometimes action precedes emotion. Your thought might go something like this, "i really don't WANT to tithe, in fact, I think it kind of sucks, and there are a lot more things I need to spend money on. But I love God, and He's asked me to give Him back a small portion of what's He's given me. Tithing seems stupid, but because I love God, I will obey Him and trust there is a reason for it." Hopefully as your actions show your obedience to God, your heart will begin to be transformed to take joy in that obedience.  

[Rachel]

So I think the answer to your question is yes: it matters more that you love God and you want to obey his commands and contribute to his work rather than that you actually plunk your cash in the offering plate each week.

So Vlad, are you saying that if the person is not tithing out of love that they should not do it?

[Vlad!]

So Vlad, are you saying that if the person is not tithing out of love that they should not do it?

1 Cor 13:3 -  If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

I'm not saying that the person shouldn't do it...certainly the church would appreciate the gift even if it came from someone doing it out of a sense of habit or obligation. But a person not tithing as a gift of love to God's work, in obedience to his commands (John 14:21a -  Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me), then he or she has missed the whole point.  

[MJanke]

1 Cor 13:3 -  If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

I'm not saying that the person shouldn't do it...certainly the church would appreciate the gift even if it came from someone doing it out of a sense of habit or obligation. But a person not tithing as a gift of love to God's work, in obedience to his commands (John 14:21a -  Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me), then he or she has missed the whole point.

At the same time, though, God clearly does value obedience ("Obedience is better than sacrifice," 1 Sam)...

Both are important. But I do agree with Bethany, that sometimes action proceeds emotion. God wants our obedience even if we don't necessarily feel like it.

[PaulDA]

[murlough23]

Since we're never the type to shy away from controversial issues around here, I was curious as to what all of your views are on tithing. Necessary? Beneficial? Or just a passage taken out of context to help the clergy make money by guilt tripping people?

Personally, I've generally been a believer in the concept of tithing. For a while it was just "what Christians did", so I didn't question it, I just dropped 1/10th of my meager allowance/paycheck in the offering basket every week. I eventually got to the point of realizing God didn't need my money (thank you, Bono), but that it also didn't just disappear into thin air. Churches can and do use that money, and if I really believe the church I'm going to is doing God's work, I'm hopefully going to want to contribute some of my resources to that.

For the last few years, I've been contributing roughly 5% of each month's income to my church, and another 5% to the fund of a personal friend who was a staff worker for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship at my college while I was there (he's since gone on to work at other colleges, and is now on a foreign mission). I wanted to give back to a ministry that I thought college students would benefit from, and I also believe in his work abroad.

But some people would say I should give all 10% to my church, and other charitable giving has to be above and beyond that. Others say that I can do as I wish with my 10% so long as it's for unselfish ministry purposes, and others say it doesn't always need to be a strict 10%, but I should just strive to be generous with whatever I have. There are varying philosphies and degrees of legalism, I guess.

One specific question I have is, for those of you who believe in tithing, on what figure do you base your tithe? Gross income? Net income? Do your bills and debts for necessary living expenses figure into that at all? If you found yourself in a sticky financial spot (I'm kind of in one now), would you stop or scale back your tithing for a short time in order to avoid going into the red? How does one deal with this sort of a principle in the real world where we're often not prosperous?

NP: "The Predatory Wasp of the Palisades Is Out to Get Us!", Sufjan Stevens

[eatahouse]

I think 10% of your gross is what is recommended.

But, if you can only give 5% because of what you have, at least you're giving. The 5% to the church and 5% to your friend's thing isn't wrong at all. Last time I checked, it's still 10%. And it's still all going towards ministry.

[Vlad!]

I will try to contribute something original at a later date, but  in the meantime check out this thread in the faith board where we discuss, among other things, tithing.  

[murlough23]

I just started a thread on tithing, so maybe the two should be merged?

Anyway, I'm pretty consistent about not doing anything I'm not motivated to do... unless I can see very directly how I or someone else will suffer very directly as a consequence. (Like if I don't go to work, for example.) Spiritually speaking, since actions that result in a blow to my spiritual maturity don't appear to have immediate effects, I'm not so good about staying motivated.

But I know that I just plain can't fake stuff. So it's extremely difficult for me to do something that I'm told will be of spiritual benefit to me if I'm not truly convinced in my heart that it's good for me.

As for whether God will honor someone whose heart is in the right place, but isn't obeyind a command? I don't know. I struggle with that one quite a bit. I want to do what God wants me to in a lot of ways. But it seems frustratingly rare that I actually manage to do it. I've wondered at times - what happens to someone, say an alcoholic, who knows beyond a shadow of a doubt God wants them to quit, but just plain can't muster up the ability to do it, and gets frustrated to the point where it's hard to even pray that it changes? Can that person still be in God's will and experience the abundant life God has for them? Kind of a tangent, but it's something I'm curious about.

I tend to look down on those who do the right things with the wrong motivations, so I'm probably not the best person to address the case of someone tithing 50% and not having the right attitude about it. I do agree that if you engage in an action for a while, you can start to condition your attitude. But it's extremely difficult to do, which is why I tend to not "fake it" most of the time.

[imeaj]

I do believe in the concept on tithing.  If nothing else it helps out the church that you believe in.
And 10% is recommended as far as I know.
I think that whatever you feel comfortable with is what you should give.  I think it's a bit more of a personal matter.  God knows what you're doing and how you're helping.

[Vlad!]

This topic has been merged with the 'tithing' thread.

[emeraldj]

It is unfortunate that many people think that tithes are only going into the clergy's pocket. (In some sad cases this is true - I have even heard TV evangelists reportedly saying that whatever comes in is there's to do with whatever they please. Excuse me - I thought this was a ministry? I thought you were doing God's work?) The truth of the matter is that tithes pay not only the pastor's salary but also contribute toward basically keeping the doors of the church open. I sometimes wonder where people think the church gets the money to operate? Do they think the Lord just drops bags of cash on the doorstep of each church like Santa Claus?

When you really get down to it, the reason people don't tithe is because they want to spend their money on themselves. Yes, we have bills to pay. But if we tithe, and trust God to provide (isn't that in the Bible somewhere?) our needs will be met. Needs - roof over our head, food, clothes. Not that fancy gaming system you want, or that expensive sports car you want or think you need. Not that mansion that will burn up in the end or that fur coat, diamond ring, whatever ... It may not be filet mignon, or Calvin Klein or a 25-room mansion - it may be a small apartment, tuna fish and clothes from Goodwill, but God will provide.

The Lord will get what is His somehow. Neglect your tithes and think about all the money that disappears from your life for excessive car repairs, unexpected expenses. Coincidence? You decide.

[murlough23]

The Lord will get what is His somehow. Neglect your tithes and think about all the money that disappears from your life for excessive car repairs, unexpected expenses. Coincidence? You decide.

While I agree with your statement that tithing goes into the church's budget and help it to keep functioning and improving the ministries it has to offer (my church is extremely transparent about how this all works with its members), I would challenge that notion that if you don't tithe, your money will disappear in a series of seemingly coincidental punishments from God. You're basically telling me that my car crapped out on me because I forgot to tithe.

[dgp11776]

Personally, I think that tithing isn't giving enough.

[eatahouse]

The Lord will get what is His somehow. Neglect your tithes and think about all the money that disappears from your life for excessive car repairs, unexpected expenses. Coincidence? You decide.

That's what I disagree with. God doesn't need your money. He can do without a single person's 50 dollars. If he wanted, he could make every church extremely rich and prosperous. If you look into the Bible (I can't remember the verse), you will find in Acts or something of a man and his wife who died for keeping some of the money from their land back, rather than giving it all to God. However, this was only because they lied to God, not because they held some money back.

But he doesn't. He's not going to force you to tithe. I hardly see any correlation between extra bills/expenses and not tithing. My family tithes, but yet we still are hammered with expenses. Other times, we are doing very well for long periods of time.

So yes, it's a coincidence. Especially since excessive car repairs and unexpected expenses usually don't go to the church anyways.

Personally, I think that tithing isn't giving enough.

Definitely. Tithing is a way to show your appreciation for God. You're not going to heaven because you tithe, however. You still have to truly believe in Jesus, and love him, and everything else that has been mentioned hundreds of times.

[Vlad!]

Personally, I think that tithing isn't giving enough.

So how much is enough?

[dgp11776]

So how much is enough?

I think it's up to the individual.  One thing I always try to keep in mind, though, is that it really isn't how much I give - it's how much I keep.  Doesn't everything really belong to God in the first place?  So, then, maybe our mindset should be to first give to God and then make due with what we have left, whatever that sum may be.  It really is amazing how much you realize you really need as opposed to want.  One of the best passages on this is in Philippians.  It is historically stated that they were probably the poorest church in the NT times, yet look at what is stated below:  

Philippians 4:15-19 - Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.  For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.  Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.  But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.  But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

And then there was Paul - not exactly raking in the dough, but he said "I have all, and abound."

But if we're going to give with poor motives or with people literally ripping the money out of our hands, that's a problem.  Paul addresses these issues below:

1 Timothy 6:18 - That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

2 Corinthians 9:7 - Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

The second verse is important, too.  If we're giving 100% of our money away, that's pretty obviously "of necessity."  So there is too little and too much.  How much is that?  Well, as a rule of thumb for me is that if 10% was required under the restrictive law, then maybe more should be given under grace.

[Vlad!]

I think it's up to the individual.

If it's up to the individual, how can you make a statement like "tithing isn't giving enough"? Do you mean that it's up to the individual so long as he or she gives above a certain amount? In that case, it's not really up to the individual, is it?

[dgp11776]

If it's up to the individual, how can you make a statement like "tithing isn't giving enough"?

By preceding it with the word "personally."  Since there is no set-in-stone NT percentage for giving (wouldn't that make it easy?), it is most certainly up to the individual.  What I set forth are simply my convictions on the matter.

[Vlad!]

OK, so I guess you misunderstood my original question then. How much do you think is enough?

[murlough23]

If we really took to heart the notion that we should only live off of what we need to survive, then let's be honest, most of us wouldn't be living in America. People in many other countries survive off of much less per month than one of us spends in a typical week. So if you really want to take it to that extreme, let's all sell our possessions and become missionaries living in Africa or something.

Now I realize that we all have some "luxuries" that we could afford to live without. I don't need to buy a new CD every few weeks. I don't need to have Internet access at home. I don't need a cell phone, or even a landline. Heck, I could live without a car (absurd as that sounds in L.A., we have buses... I could get most places... eventually). But having these things does enable me to bless others in different ways. it's not just for me, even if those things are blessings for me as well. And I don't think we're not afforded a little fun and recreation from time to time, either. So I'm not going to guilt trip myself over small indulgences.

For the most part, though, I do try not to be extravagant. I try to live off of what I really need, according to what I think is a fairly modest standard of living, relative to the culture around me. If I made a lot more money, I probably would be prudent about saving up some of it for future provision, such as medical emergencies in my family, or a college education for my kids. If medical bills can't be paid, bad things happen. And I guess kids don't need to go to college, but God uses higher education to put a lot of Christians into different careers, so I wouldn't say it's a bad idea, either. And either I pay for that upfront, or I and/or my kids pay it all back plus interest over time, or get grants and the government or someone else has to pay for it, when that money could be used to help someone else less fortunate. For reasons like these, I think it's prudent to be reasonable and have some sort of savings stored up for a rainy day.

But even then, sometimes there is excess. Sometimes we make more money than we really need. And I do think it's a good idea to give that away. While I feel I have a responsibility to take care of those whom God has assigned me to directly care for (i.e. my wife and eventually my kids, possibly some extended family as well), if I have more than I need to accomplish that, I'd be perfectly willing to give that way. If I was making $1,000 more than what I needed to meet my budget and put away a certain amount each month, I'd give that. If I was making $10,000 more, I'd give that, and so on up. My cost of living shouldn't change, even if I suddenly became independently wealthy. So if I were a billionaire, I imagine I'd also become a philanthropist. Right now, though, I don't have a whole lot of spare money. Living solely off of my income, my wife and I would need easily close to 100% of it to get by without major stress. Once her job situation is stable, we will hopefully have excess again, and give out of that excess. I try to shoot for 10%, but realistically, sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less.

Keep in mind that your time and your talents are also resources that you can "tithe" out of. Not everybody has the same talents or the same amount of money/possessions from which to give... but we all have 24 hours a day.

NP: "Why I Feel This Way", Take 6 feat. Stevie Wonder

[dgp11776]

OK, so I guess you misunderstood my original question then. How much do you think is enough?

I'm actually not comfortable sharing that - since we are rewarded in Heaven for what we give, I think that part of our reward is lost if we go around telling everyone exactly how much we give.  

[murlough23]

I'm actually not comfortable sharing that - since we are rewarded in Heaven for what we give, I think that part of our reward is lost if we go around telling everyone exactly how much we give.

I was assuming he meant a percentage, not an actual figure. Anyway, it's OK if you don't feel like sharing that.

But here's a scenario that may or may not hit close to home. Let's say you and your wife are just getting by on roughly 90% of your combined income. Then you have a kid. Obviously your budget is going to change and you will need more money each month to support your family. OK, so wise people would plan for such things, but you know, best-laid plans of mice and men. Stuff happens unexpectedly and you're not always able to save up for it. If you could just barely survive off of 90% before, how do you expect to be able to still give 10% every month in this new situation? Isn't it your responsibility to feed your kid first?

NP: "Lullaby", Take 6

[dgp11776]

Personally, I have found that if I forego some of my own wants and go ahead and give, there has always been provision for my needs.  My budget has definitely changed with the addition of a baby - but my wife and I have been careful to make sure that the top "figure" (giving to the Lord) has remained unchanged.  We've had to limit other stuff somewhat, but it's worth it.

[Vlad!]

David is right; I was asking in general terms rather than for you specifically.

I found these verses today that I think pertain to this discussion:

Psalm 50:8-15
 "Hear, O my people, and I will speak,
       O Israel, and I will testify against you:
       I am God, your God.

     I do not rebuke you for your sacrifices
       or your burnt offerings, which are ever before me.

     I have no need of a bull from your stall
       or of goats from your pens,

     for every animal of the forest is mine,
       and the cattle on a thousand hills.

     I know every bird in the mountains,
       and the creatures of the field are mine.

     If I were hungry I would not tell you,
       for the world is mine, and all that is in it.

     Do I eat the flesh of bulls
       or drink the blood of goats?

     Sacrifice thank offerings to God,
       fulfill your vows to the Most High,

     and call upon me in the day of trouble;
       I will deliver you, and you will honor me."  

[bloop]

Well, I have to confess that tithing 10% is very hard for my family, so we don't give that much.  After college loans and other necessities that we must pay month to month, we don't have a whole lot left (and we don't even pay for some common things some think of as needs like cable television).  Anyway, we did the math and it became apparent that we don't have enough our income left after bills, even if entertainment were drastically cut (which it already is, but not to zero).

God is many things, but the concept that He's a bad mathematician is something I will never buy into.

In spite of all of this, it does feel good to give what we can to the Church, especially since I don't get the feeling that my church is little more than a glorified front for the Republican Party (I felt that way about my church in high school).

[Aaron]

So how much is enough?

Whatever you can give within your means and still have enough to survive daily costs and other financial aspects of your life is enough.  

[Vlad!]

Whatever you can give within your means and still have enough to survive daily costs and other financial aspects of your life is enough.

Yeah, so my point is, what if that falls below 10%? That would seem to refute the statement that 10% is not enough.

[murlough23]

Yeah, so my point is, what if that falls below 10%? That would seem to refute the statement that 10% is not enough.

Yes. If you have to spend pretty much everything you've got to survive (and I do mean survive, no luxuries, no nothing), it's pretty messed up to be expected to put money in the offering basket knowing that your children will have to go without a few meals or whatever. 10% is a very good guideline, and if you have an excess, great, give more! But we shouldn't underestimate our resposnibility to take care of those God has commanded us to take care of.

[dgp11776]

Just a few comments here.  First of all (and I know there will probably be disagreement), God comes before family.  One such example of this is in Matthew 8:

21.  And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22.  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

I don't think some of us truly appreciate the fact of what God gave to us, and what Jesus gave to us.  "Yet for our sakes, He became poor."  

What about George Muller and Hudson Taylor?  Both of these men have recorded stories of giving away their last source of funds or their last bit of food, only to have their needs provided for over and above what they previously had.  What about 1 Kings 17, when the woman made a cake for Elijah, even though on the surface it would mean death for her and her son?  Or what about the widow who cast in two mites?  These people had tremendous faith that God would provide for their needs.

I still think that Christians today are completely backwards in their giving to the Lord.  The OT is a great guideline in that the Jews were commanded to give first to the Lord.  

Regarding giving, I just wanted to provide a little information on this as pertains to the church we attend.  As far as my wife and I are concerned, only about 15-20% of our giving is put into the plate.  But, then again, the church we attend doesn't have a pastor, a staff, and is a rather humble building.  We're giving the portion we need to give the keep the building in order, the Gospel outreach works properly funded, and meet other needs.  The other 80-85% is given directly to evangelists, missionaries, widows, and others in need.  

I appear to be in the vast minority here, so I'll bow out.  I don't see what else I could say without repeating myself.  But I can't help but think about 1 Samuel 2:30 - "for them that honor Me, I will honor."  Please don't take anything that I've said in a condescending light, because it wasn't intended that way.

[murlough23]

Just a few comments here.  First of all (and I know there will probably be disagreement), God comes before family.

I know that. But if God has granted me the gift of a family, then God commands me to care for that family. God may also command me to take care of elderly relatives or whatever else. So we're not talking about purely selfish interests trumping God's interests. We're talking about two commands from God - which supercedes the other?

Speaking on purely pragmatic terms, my church might suffer a little bit if they don't get 10% (or however much of my income) this month. My family will suffer more if we truly need 100% of it and I don't use it all on them.