An important and difficult Bible question

[Tom]

Here is the verse that prompts my question:

"Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." ESV

As it is worded in the text, does it imply that the person whose share is taken away once had a share in the tree of life?

If this is so, then how can we jive this verse, (and another in Revelation 3:5) with the doctrine of election, namely the perseverance of the saints?

And further, what would qualify as adding to, or taking away from the book of Revelation; the book of prophecy?

I believe that the Bible overwhelmingly supports the doctrine of election. But inasmuch as the doctrine of election says that you cannot fall away from irresistable grace, does this belief actually contradict the belief that God is sovereign in ALL things?

This verse is very troubling to me. Has anyone else here thought of it's implications and / or asked a learned teacher to explain it?

If you have insight, please share. Just be careful not to do what the verse says not to do!

[Josh]

And further, what would qualify as adding to, or taking away from the book of Revelation; the book of prophecy?

Well, check out Deut. 4:2 for an Old Testament counterpart-- proof enough that Revelation is indeed the inspired Word of God, contrary to what a handful of eary theologians thought! (As you can imagine, this book got into the canon only after a bit of a fight.)

As for the rest of your question, Tom... I'm still mulling it over. I'll try to repond later tonight.

[PaulDA]

I don't believe in election but I believe in 'once saved always saved', so I don't believe a person can lose their salvation for any reason if they TRULY are saved.
Millions upon millions of people, in my opinion, go to church, even serve in choirs, as ushers, and are even preachers and are nor saved, they just have a form of godliness but have never given Jesus their heart.
Jesus Himself said that wide is the road to sestruction and many find it and few will find the narrow road to salvation.

[Josh]

Okay, Tom, here are a few thoughts that might help to illuminate this passage:

1. Notice that John uses very inclusive language in this verse. It is addressed to "everyone who hears... this book"-- suggesting elect and non-elect alike. Thus, it's probably wrong to assume that he is talking specifically to people who have already been elected to eternal life.

2. Note also that the language is covenantal. I point again to Deut. 4:2, where Moses uses similar language. The language of blessings and curses is always used during important parts of redemptive history-- moments in which the Covenant is either renewed (Deut.) or, in a sesne, fulfilled (Revelation). Thus, it is is unsurprising that John uses this kind of strong language, for God does not take it lightly when we contort His Word to fit our own purposes!

3. Finally, note the play on words. "Add words... add plagues" and "take away words.. take away life." On one level it's just great writing. On another level John is telling us that if you try to change God's word then you clearly consider yourself to be better/wiser/greater than God. Thus, you are in Satan's camp. Repentance and forgiveness is still possible for you, if you are on of the Elect, but you'd better do it quickly-- Revelation 22 is serious business, and it makes it quite clear that those who think themselves better than God should not expect to receive God's blessing.

Hope that helps.

[Tom]

so, basically are you saying that "to take away" in this verse implies deliberately hiding or concealing what you know to be the Word of God with intent to deceive?

and accidental misquotes (which we all do from time to time), or misunderstandings of scripture (which we all do from time to time) without intent of deception would not count as taking away in your opinion?

i like the way you look at it, if that is what you're saying.  

[Josh]

so, basically are you saying that "to take away" in this verse implies deliberately hiding or concealing what you know to be the Word of God with intent to deceive?

Right. Or, to deliberately contort the Word of God.  

[danny316]

Repentance and forgiveness is still possible for you, if you are on of the Elect, but you'd better do it quickly-- Revelation 22 is serious business, and it makes it quite clear that those who think themselves better than God should not expect to receive God's blessing.

Excuse me if I say anything stupid here, I'm still rather new to that whole Calvinism thing.

If you're one of the Elect, aren't you subject to irrisistable grace and perseverance of the Saints? So...if you are truly one of the elect, you won't commit this sin in the first place? The way I'm reading what you said, it sounds like you're saying that the elect need to act quickly to protect themselves from God's wrath....which doesn't make sense to me, since the elect are already exempted from that.

Or am I completely wrong?

[Tom]

i really don't like the term Calvinism to be honest. yes, he (John Calvin) was one of the more famous men during the Reformation to espouse the doctrine commonly referred to as TULIP; but i don't follow John Calvin and i daresay most 'Calvinists' agree with what i mean to say here.

a few very proud men have used the term Calvinism in ways that understandably make people resistant to hear it out. because it is with a spirit of humility, gratefullness and mercy that we should express our thankfullness for God's gift of salvation.

Danny316, your question lies at the heart of my initial question. how does this verse jive or not jive with the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer? ...or elect if you will.

i tend to see the answer similarly to the way Josh states his view here. but i'm reticent to give the impression that i have the final word on it. i have much more studying and praying to do about it.

but one thing is for certain, this verse greatly impressed upon me the seriousness of keeping God's Word reverently and not ever using it for personal vendettas.

it has even made me look at other issues in a new light. consider this: is it ever a good thing to overlook certain passages because you "might offend someone" or "it may not be 'relevant' to that person's personal issues"?

i'm also reminded that many in the church at large today have an anthropocentric (how does God relate to humans?) view of God instead of a theocentric (how should i respond to God?) view. i'm convinced that in seeking to be 'relevant' we're drifting away from veiwing God as soverign in all things. that is why people get so bent out of shape, and sadly some 'leave the faith' when bad things happen. they've been programmed by a 'prosperity gospel' that lied to them and told them that once you become a Christian nothing bad will happen to you. and if something bad happens to you then obviously "the devil did it." but we forget that God is in control of everything when we falsely view things anthropocentrically.

i know this doesn't completely address the issue of 'Calvinism' that you asked about. i'm not really eloquent enough scripturally to spell it all out without researching it more. but suffice to say that at the heart of good 'Calvinism' is a reverant spirit that seeks to glorify a God who is sovereign in ALL things.

as far the the whole 'predestination' issue goes, (which is what most people get stuck on) i would suggest further reading in the book of Romans, particularly chapter 9. also, the entire book of Ephesians.