Crowder's Pastor dies

[ajyouthguy]

[glatisant]

Shaun Groves blogs about it here, and responds in the comments section to an atheist who wrote: "I am sorry that all of you will still have to worship the 'God' who allowed this horror to transpire.  I can't imagine what you would say in a prayer to him after this."

[Edit: link fixed.  mea culpa.]

[dgp11776]

Shaun Groves blogs about it here, and responds in the comments section to an atheist who wrote: "I am sorry that all of you will still have to worship the 'God' who allowed this horror to transpire.  I can't imagine what you would say in a prayer to him after this."

Your link...she is wrong.  This is the right link.

Shaun is so articulate, sensible, and, well, just the man.

[murlough23]

Shaun is so articulate, sensible, and, well, just the man.

Indubitably. I like how, while he tried to answer the questions on an intellectual level, he also admitted that there was no way he could disprove a belief someone had held for years just with one comment post. He invited the person to be part of a continued conversation, basically a way of saying he cares about that person and a way of daring himself and the other person to really hear each other out. Someone who considers themselves open-minded can't really turn down such a dare, can they?

Anyway, this might be weird, because bad things that have happened to me this year are in no way as tragic as what happened to this pastor, or other unexplainable tragedies like various hurricanes or 9/11, etc. But still, the questions that this atheists asks are admittedly similar to questions that people like Shaun Groves or myself have asked. And if Shaun had never struggled with those hard questions, he wouldn't be able to respond to the atheist in any meaningful way. It's something that's very hard to deal with if it's not coming from experience.

So, using that as a sptringboard, do you think God allows some people to experience tragedies that just seem brutally unfair, in order that they might be able to better relate to those who don't believe in God for the reason of "bad things happening to good people"? In other words, is what I'm going through, or what Shaun Groves and David Crowder are going through, or what this pastor's family is going through, a way for God to give us a window into the emotional/mental process of someone who does not believe in God?

[PaulDA]

In other words, is what I'm going through, or what Shaun Groves and David Crowder are going through, or what this pastor's family is going through, a way for God to give us a window into the emotional/mental process of someone who does not believe in God?

First, let me give my condolenses to the pastor's family, friends and congregation. The Pastor's death is a horrible thing go through, let alone also witnessing it.

Now, to answer your question from my perspective: We go though trauma because we live in a fallen world.
The Bible says that God's favor reigns on the just and the unjust.
We can't understand why someone who is a believer dies a horrible early death while some athiest person who hates God lives to 90 and is never sick a day in his life.
The only way to put it in perspective is, we will live forever, so it doesn't really matter in the entire scheme of things if we live 10 years or 100 years on Earth.
It's all just a blip in terms of 'forever'.
The 90 year old athiest, if he dies an unbeliever, will be in hell forever, and the 33 year old Pastor, in he truly was a believer, will be in Heaven forever.

[murlough23]

Now, to answer your question from my perspective: We go though trauma because we live in a fallen world.
The Bible says that God's favor reigns on the just and the unjust.
We can't understand why someone who is a believer dies a horrible early death while some athiest person who hates God lives to 90 and is never sick a day in his life.
The only way to put it in perspective is, we will live forever, so it doesn't really matter in the entire scheme of things if we live 10 years or 100 years on Earth.
It's all just a blip in terms of 'forever'.
The 90 year old athiest, if he dies an unbeliever, will be in hell forever, and the 33 year old Pastor, in he truly was a believer, will be in Heaven forever.

That doesn't really answer my question, other than to say we can't know why. My question isn't so much about wanting to know why, but rather saying, is this one purpose that God could use tragedy for?

I accept the premise of living in a fallen world with people who sin. I don't believe God waves His hand and directly causes people to sin. I don't think God's plan is as clockwork as that; I tend to view God's plan as being the result that will still happen regardless of man's sin. Some details along the way may change, but God still gets what God desires.

Here's the thing; the "fallen world" explanation might be relevant to something like 9/11. That was a planned attack by sinful people. God had the ability to stop that from happening, but for whatever reason, chose not to.

However, "fallen world" doesn't explain something like Hurricane Katrina, or this pastor's death. Katrina was a natural disaster. This pastor died because a microphone accidentally fell into the water. Probably not the smartest thing to be holding one while in the water in the first place, and I guess we could debate over doing something that isn't very smart is a sin. But for the most part, it seems like a freak accident. God could have chosen to stop that, too, but didn't.

We have to think about how God draws people to Himself. It's almost always done through other people. I'm a Christian due largely to the influence of my mother, who is also a Christian and who took me to church at a young age. As I grew older, youth pastors, InterVarsity staff, Christian friends, and Christian music played roles in reinforcing my desire to remain a Christian. God placed those things in my life knowing that I would respond favorably to them. When tragedy happens, it's very tempting for a human being to respond negatively and either blame God or assume there is no God. So the question is, why would God allow an event to happen like that, which He knows will be interpreted by people He loves in a very negative light? Obviously God's smarter than us and shouldn't cater to dumb assumptions that we're going to make... but at the same time, it's very difficult for a person to love and trust God when hammered with extreme emotional pain. We humans have reasonable limits, I think.

So I guess my question is, knowing that God fully intends to use the bad for good even though He does not cause the bad to happen, is this a way in which you think God may be trying to use a specific bad thing that happened, and therefore, a good reason why God would not prevent something like this from happening?

[ThePurplePerson]

So, using that as a sptringboard, do you think God allows some people to experience tragedies that just seem brutally unfair, in order that they might be able to better relate to those who don't believe in God for the reason of "bad things happening to good people"? In other words, is what I'm going through, or what Shaun Groves and David Crowder are going through, or what this pastor's family is going through, a way for God to give us a window into the emotional/mental process of someone who does not believe in God?

I think that's definitely a strong possibility.  I'm writing a paper (to be given as a speech) entitled "The Purpose of Pain"... as a result of life of late, and the fact that I've been reading On Death and Dying, and The Problem of Pain.  It's really been fascinating exploring the purpose of pain-- we so often view pain as simply trial and inconvenience when it's oh so much more.  I think pain has three main purposes:  to alert us, to challange us (your idea would fit under this one) and ultimately to change us.

Hmm.  Maybe I'll post it when I'm done?

[murlough23]

I think pain has three main purposes:  to alert us, to challange us (your idea would fit under this one) and ultimately to change us.

That's my struggle. In my weaker moments, sure, I fall victim to the whole "God hates me" or "God is unfair" thing. But in my stronger moments, what I really want is to know what the heck it is I'm supposed to be viewing this as. If it's to alert me, or challenge me, or change me, great! So what am I being alerted or being challenged to do? If I don't understand or interpret this correctly, then the lesson to be learned is lost and I've gone through it needlessly.

There's also the question of how I let myself get so off-base that I needed such a wake-up call in the first place.

[Brenden]

I've gone through a lot of crap in my life, and now looking back I see if I hadn't gone through it, I wouldn't be as strong as I am now. I think this is one purpose of pain, certainly. Life is pain, how you deal with it matters.

I do sometimes question if the amount of pain in my life or someone else's life is fair though. There are times I yell at God, "Can't I get a break once in awhile?!", which lately has been quickly followed by something good happening and me thinking God is saying, "See, Brenden?". But I think those are needed. God invites us to question Him, He's not afraid of it.

A friend of mine recently died after a long battle with cancer, they seemed to recover and the cancer vanished, but then it came back stronger. Does that make God a tease? Offering good and then yanking it away? Sometimes I wonder, and I realize that I don't know a blasted thing about what God is thinking.

Mostly, I wonder what I'm supposed to do with the situations that fall into my lap.

[PaulDA]

So I guess my question is, knowing that God fully intends to use the bad for good even though He does not cause the bad to happen, is this a way in which you think God may be trying to use a specific bad thing that happened, and therefore, a good reason why God would not prevent something like this from happening?

Well, the Bible does say something about God using everything for good or for His purpose (which is the same thing beacially, even though we may not be able to see that).
I think it's important to remember that God has given us free will to basically do as we want to, and He very rarely will step in to stop something, and if He does or doesn't, He has His reasons. In giving us free will, we are going to do things that are wrong, Christians or non-Christians.
I could use the same question about a local pastor here, whose 10 year old son was killed in a very safe amusment park rife a few months ago. These things happen to Christians, just as they happen to others, but we, as Christians, are more affected by them because we sometimes think nothing will happen to us. It is defenietely a reality check.
So, again, God can use any tragedy for His purposes and to cause something good to happen, although how that interferes with free will is something I'm still contemplating.

[ThePurplePerson]

If it's to alert me, or challenge me, or change me, great! So what am I being alerted or being challenged to do? If I don't understand or interpret this correctly, then the lesson to be learned is lost and I've gone through it needlessly.

this is where prayer comes in.  

There's also the question of how I let myself get so off-base that I needed such a wake-up call in the first place.

you know, I used to ask that and wonder that all the time.  and identifying where you messed up as to not repeat your mistake is excellent. but I think sometimes I get so caught up in the "what the heck happened?" line of thinking that I forget that no matter what went wrong, all there is to do in the present is make right.  

NP:  "Cable Car", The Fray

[ThePurplePerson]

Well, the Bible does say something about God using everything for good or for His purpose (which is the same thing beacially, even though we may not be able to see that). 

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."  -- Romans 8:28

That verse always reminds me of a favorite C. S. Lewis quote: "We are not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us, we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be."

[murlough23]

So basically, we just need to get rid of the myth that God will protect us and guarantee us long life just because we are Christians. God gets what He wants in the end if He has our belief, so to Him, the only reason it matters how long we live is how we get used to influence other people towards God.

Right?

[ThePurplePerson]

So basically, we just need to get rid of the myth that God will protect us and guarantee us long life just because we are Christians. God gets what He wants in the end if He has our belief, so to Him, the only reason it matters how long we live is how we get used to influence other people towards God.

Right?

Well, I believe the purpose of my life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, both of which we can do in heaven, so... yeah, pretty much.

[murlough23]

So basically, we just need to get rid of the myth that God will protect us and guarantee us long life just because we are Christians. God gets what He wants in the end if He has our belief, so to Him, the only reason it matters how long we live is how we get used to influence other people towards God.

Right?

Well, I believe the purpose of my life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, both of which we can do in heaven, so... yeah, pretty much.

And that makes perfect sense in my head. But in my heart, I really, really resent that.

[ThePurplePerson]

So basically, we just need to get rid of the myth that God will protect us and guarantee us long life just because we are Christians. God gets what He wants in the end if He has our belief, so to Him, the only reason it matters how long we live is how we get used to influence other people towards God.

Right?

Well, I believe the purpose of my life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, both of which we can do in heaven, so... yeah, pretty much.

And that makes perfect sense in my head. But in my heart, I really, really resent that.

I think I would resent that if I weren't for heaven.  I've been promised an absolutely perfect place.  No matter what crap I have to go through to get there... I think it's a pretty sweet deal.

[PaulDA]

So basically, we just need to get rid of the myth that God will protect us and guarantee us long life just because we are Christians. God gets what He wants in the end if He has our belief, so to Him, the only reason it matters how long we live is how we get used to influence other people towards God.

Right?

Right.
There is no guarantee in the Bible that Christians will live a long life, never be sick or be rich.
I'm afraid these wacked out prosperity teachers on TV have distorted the Bible's meaning in this area.
Look at Jesus' first main disciples.
One would think, if we were meant to have health, wealth and longs life, they would surely reap these things. However, none of them was wealthy, and they all died horrible deaths by execution except for john, who died on Patmos.
This doesn't mean that jesus will not bless us in certain ways, but we have no guarantee of the types of blessings we would like.
The main blessing is one we fail to realize most of the time:
Just knowing Jesus is out biggest blessing.
At least, that's how I see it.

[dgp11776]

I think I would resent that if I weren't for heaven.  I've been promised an absolutely perfect place.  No matter what crap I have to go through to get there... I think it's a pretty sweet deal.

I agree with this.  After all, I deserve to be in Hell forever.  

A husband and wife at the church I attend have been a real example of all of this, and it is a true blessing to know them.  She is only about 60 years old.  She has had three bouts with cancer.  She has had a heart attack.  On a different occassion, she had quadruple by-pass surgery.  He lost both parents, three brothers, a few nephews, and others.  It seems like they constantly have some problem in their lives.  But you would never know it by talking with them.  One time, I asked her, "Don't you get upset with God?"  She told me two things.  She said, "First, it's better than Hell.  And second, read 2 Corinthians 4:17."  I read it on the spot, "For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison..."  Needless to say, that has had a pretty enormous impact on me.
 

[Wildcatblue7]

"The rain falls upon the righteous and the unrighteous"

[murlough23]

OK. The assurance of Heaven is a nice thought for those who feel that assurance. But what about those who are struggling in their belief, whom these tragic events might impact in a very negative way? OK, so it's not God's fault that they misunderstand. But still, God does know how they're going to react to stuff. I realize this is getting into an issue of whether a person can lose their salvation if they decide to turn away from God despite being a believer before due to bad things that happen... but that's kind of where my mind goes in these situations.

[PaulDA]

OK. The assurance of Heaven is a nice thought for those who feel that assurance. But what about those who are struggling in their belief, whom these tragic events might impact in a very negative way? OK, so it's not God's fault that they misunderstand. But still, God does know how they're going to react to stuff. I realize this is getting into an issue of whether a person can lose their salvation if they decide to turn away from God despite being a believer before due to bad things that happen... but that's kind of where my mind goes in these situations.

.....I think if we are all honest with ourselves, we will admit that many beliefs that we defend are not proven. Fort instance, i am adamant that we cannot lose our salvation, but let's put it on the table here: I don't really know.
Bible scholars and Preachers who are  smarter and more learned than I ever could be in 200 years, disgaree on this issue.
much of what we believe depends on how we were taught, or what we have put together from studying, or what we just believe because we think it makes sense.
.....Now, to your point of people who are having doubts, and then having a tragedy happen to make matters worse in that area, yes, that happens quite frequntly. but it even happens to solid believers. the wife of the pastor who lost their child in that freak accident at playland Amuusement Park in Rye, NY a few months ago admitted that her faith in God was shaken for a while after it happened. She did get it back, but even the most sincere Christians can have their world shaken up.
There are very few brother Jobs among even the most devout Christians.

[ThePurplePerson]

"The rain falls upon the righteous and the unrighteous"

mmhmm.

but the righteous have ready access to umbrellas.

[murlough23]

.....I think if we are all honest with ourselves, we will admit that many beliefs that we defend are not proven. Fort instance, i am adamant that we cannot lose our salvation, but let's put it on the table here: I don't really know.

Then you're not adamant, are you? Maybe emotionally, you are. Shoot, I'm in the same boat; I know how it feels when you just want something to be true with every fiber of your being. But that doesn't make it true. And if we keep believing stuff just because we want to, well, that's the weak point where atheists attack us, because they think our entire belief system is predicated on fantasy.

I'm not saying that there's no place for faith. I just want my faith to be informed faith. If I just believe stuff because I feel that way, and can't really back it up logically to the point where it's a somewhat reasonable leap for a person to make, then I can't really expect most of the world to take my case seriously. I think modern, Westernized Christianity has put so much emphasis on emotion and what feels right (which is why I mount such a crusade against certain trends in Christian music) that we end up believing some pretty crazy stuff that we can't back up when tragedy strikes. Maybe a bi-product of those tragedies is turning some of those upside-down beliefs back upright again.

.....Now, to your point of people who are having doubts, and then having a tragedy happen to make matters worse in that area, yes, that happens quite frequntly. but it even happens to solid believers. the wife of the pastor who lost their child in that freak accident at playland Amuusement Park in Rye, NY a few months ago admitted that her faith in God was shaken for a while after it happened. She did get it back, but even the most sincere Christians can have their world shaken up.

Never lost a child (or had one to begin with!), but I can relate in the sense of having bad things happen and having my faith shaken. I'll admit it, one side of me is a doubting Thomas, and the other side of me fears that the harshest takes on theology that I've heard are actually true, which results in me convicing myself that despite my best attempts to believe, I'm still going to Hell. I'd like to think one can't lose their salvation, but what if that just means I never really had it and never was the strong Christian I perceived myself to be? I'm not losing sleep over that on a nightly basis or anything, but sometimes those doubts creep in, even if I appear in other ways to be a pretty solid believer who stands on his convictions and isn't afraid to disagree with people who see it another way.

There are very few brother Jobs among even the most devout Christians.

I don't need to be a Job. I'd take David at this point. He sinned colossally, and the emeny was constantly trying to beat the crap out of him, but through it all, he found a way to worship.

[PaulDA]

I'm not saying that there's no place for faith. I just want my faith to be informed faith.

Not to confuse things further, but there are many Christians who are informed up to their gills, and who have faith based on beliefs, who disagree with each other all the time.

[murlough23]

but there are many Christians who are informed up to their gills

Those Christians would probably be rather pissed to learned that they evolved from fish.

Anyway, I see what you're saying. Knowledge alone won't reveal everything about God to us. I've tried to tried to tackle certain issues (such as predestination vs. freewill, for example) from a purely logical standpoint, and I've just come out humbled and baffled. The most freeing thing in those cases is admitting that I don't know and I might not be able to know in this lifetime. (Though some would see that as a cop-out.)

NP: "Eternal", Evanescence

[PaulDA]

mmhmm.

but the righteous have ready access to umbrellas.

Hmmm, umbrellas work sometimes, but other times the rain comes in sideways or the wind breaks them.
When you say 'we have umbrellas' what exactly do you mean?
That we are always protected?
Because the simple fact is we can have tragedies happen to us just like everyone else.
If, by umbrella, you mean that even if we face adversity of the worst kind (such as losing a child, being diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor at 19, losing both legs in an accisent), we have Jesus to turn to in our need, then i would agree with you.
Protection from harm: I don't buy that.

[ThePurplePerson]

I think the ease of faith has a lot to do with personality.  I'm a naturally upbeat, optimistic, "everything will be okay" kind of person.  I also have a lot of inherent trust in people/things.  That makes it easier for me to have faith.  People with an opposing personality will probably find it a lot harder to have faith.  We should still have faith regardless... but if it's hard for us, we need to view it as "this is a stuggle that I will overcome", not "well, everyone else seems to have a lot of faith, I must be bad/something must be wrong with me".  God made some things easier for some people than He did for other people.

NP:  "The Eleventh Hour", Jars of Clay

[ThePurplePerson]

mmhmm.

but the righteous have ready access to umbrellas.

Hmmm, umbrellas work sometimes, but other times the rain comes in sideways or the wind breaks them.
When you say 'we have umbrellas' what exactly do you mean?
That we are always protected?
Because the simple fact is we can have tragedies happen to us just like everyone else.
If, by umbrella, you mean that even if we face adversity of the worst kind (such as losing a child, being diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor at 19, losing both legs in an accisent), we have Jesus to turn to in our need, then i would agree with you.
Protection from harm: I don't buy that.

I was making the point that while bad things happen to unbelievers as well as believers, believers have resources (umbrellas) to help them deal with the bad things (rain).  we have prayer, knowledge of God's promises, etc. etc.

[murlough23]

I think the ease of faith has a lot to do with personality.  I'm a naturally upbeat, optimistic, "everything will be okay" kind of person.  I also have a lot of inherent trust in people/things.  That makes it easier for me to have faith.  People with an opposing personality will probably find it a lot harder to have faith.  We should still have faith regardless... but if it's hard for us, we need to view it as "this is a stuggle that I will overcome", not "well, everyone else seems to have a lot of faith, I must be bad/something must be wrong with me".  God made some things easier for some people than He did for other people.

I used to be a natural optimist. At some point in college, not long after I decided to get baptized, very hard stuff happened and I became really pessimistic. I've had my window of bravery and optimism since then, but for the most part I've reverted to being someone who is rather weary of life and sees the glass as half-empty. Wish I knew how the hell to fix that.

[ThePurplePerson]

I used to be a natural optimist. At some point in college, not long after I decided to get baptized, very hard stuff happened and I became really pessimistic. I've had my window of bravery and optimism since then, but for the most part I've reverted to being someone who is rather weary of life and sees the glass as half-empty. Wish I knew how the hell to fix that.

I don't think that's something you just 'fix'.  I think that's something you work through... with God, and with counselling.

And just because you're an optimist doesn't mean you have joy... some of the most optimistic people I know are the most empty.

NP:  "Swing Life Away", Rise Against