Lost

[Josh]

Right; I mean, it's pretty obvious that it's Thematically Significant from the way Locke explains it, but the recent finale is the first time we're able to fill in the blanks.

[enemy anemone]

I'm curious what people think regarding the good/evil and Jacob/nemesis thing. are you inclined to think that Jacob = good and nemesis = evil?

for me, I took Jacob's comments and actions as being evil. I keep coming across the interpretation that Jacob "has faith in human progress" and that he seems to want humans to make a paradise on the island or something, while the man in black has no faith in humans because they destroy and corrupt. initially I found Jacob's words about there only being one end and everything else is progress to be very chilling. I took "only one end" to be end-of-the-world type ultimate bad, and all the destroying and corrupting that has gone on so far have been merely steps toward it. and he is purposely bringing people to the island--kidnapping them, really--to bring this about. how is that not evil?! how is that "having faith in human progress"?! I don't get it!

I don't know what to think of the nemesis, but I'm just not convinced that Jacob = good. the Jacob wearing white and nemesis wearing black is kind of too obvious to be an indication of goodness and evilness. besides, I agree with Frank that the people who make it a point to indicate that they are the good guys are usually the bad guys.

[Josh]

Well, I am inclined to believe that Jacob's nemesis = man in black = guy we thought was resurrected John Locke = the smoke monster = evil.

Jacob is a little more complicated. I think he is supposed to be the LESS evil of the two. Whether he is supposed to be wholly good, though, I'm not so sure.

[murlough23]

I'm curious what people think regarding the good/evil and Jacob/nemesis thing. are you inclined to think that Jacob = good and nemesis = evil?

I think the show wants us to think that. The truth probably isn't that straightforward.

for me, I took Jacob's comments and actions as being evil. I keep coming across the interpretation that Jacob "has faith in human progress" and that he seems to want humans to make a paradise on the island or something, while the man in black has no faith in humans because they destroy and corrupt. initially I found Jacob's words about there only being one end and everything else is progress to be very chilling. I took "only one end" to be end-of-the-world type ultimate bad, and all the destroying and corrupting that has gone on so far have been merely steps toward it. and he is purposely bringing people to the island--kidnapping them, really--to bring this about. how is that not evil?! how is that "having faith in human progress"?! I don't get it!

I saw Jacob's actions in the flashbacks of other characters as being attempts to prevent them from coming to the island. However, Hurley and Sayid don't quite fit my analysis, since he visited them after they left the island. But arguably he tried to do something good for both of them.

I feel like Jacob's trying to change things to create a "loophole" to cheat death, or to close the "loophole" created by his enemy.

I don't know what to think of the nemesis, but I'm just not convinced that Jacob = good. the Jacob wearing white and nemesis wearing black is kind of too obvious to be an indication of goodness and evilness. besides, I agree with Frank that the people who make it a point to indicate that they are the good guys are usually the bad guys.

That was either a hint at Jacob's true allegiance, or just a nod to the audience who rightly saw through the B.S. when Ben claimed the Others were the "good guys".

[enemy anemone]

I saw Jacob's actions in the flashbacks of other characters as being attempts to prevent them from coming to the island.

at first I thought he was helping them somehow but then read a theory that he says one thing but his actions indicate something else, which actually  sets them on the path that ended at the island. the person's examples were that he tells Kate "you won't steal again, will you?" but his actions taught her that if she looks sorry enough and lies, she can get away with stuff. and with Sawyer, he gave him a pen so he could finish the letter, making his anger and intentions permanent. I can see this theory fitting with most of the other Losties he interacted with. but even with the ones I can't quite figure out, well, if he has the power to somehow summon people to the island, how can he be so powerless as to visit them personally yet fail in preventing them from arriving to an island that is just about impossible to get to? I dunno. it seems to make more sense to me that he wanted them to be there.

[spacebrat311]

it seems to make more sense to me that he wanted them to be there.

me too.

[murlough23]

it seems to make more sense to me that he wanted them to be there.

Me three. What looks like benevolent actions to help these people may have just been manipulative actions to make sure their pasts remained consistent and they still ended up on the island. That explains Sayid and Hurley a little better. I just needed to stop looking through my "Jacob is the good guy" lens to see it that way.

[spacebrat311]

Even then, that depends on what "good guy" means.

[bethany]

True, but the theme of good vs. evil, black vs. white, two sides playing against one another has been a (the?) main theme throughout the show, so learning about Jacob and the dude in black (clothed, obviously as they are, in the respective colors) doesn't exactly take super keen powers of observation to connect them immediately.

[murlough23]

True, but the theme of good vs. evil, black vs. white, two sides playing against one another has been a (the?) main theme throughout the show, so learning about Jacob and the dude in black (clothed, obviously as they are, in the respective colors) doesn't exactly take super keen powers of observation to connect them immediately.

Well, that's kind of what I'm saying. This show is known for making things look obvious and then later revealing them to have been much more devious than what you thought. You can't be blamed for assuming the obvious, but over time, you come to expect that your expectations will be suverted in some way.

NP: "Peacemaker", Green Day

[murlough23]

Whoa. I was struck by a random thought this morning - what if Jacob and his enemy are both the smoke monster? (Meaning that the smoke monster is actually two separate entities.)

I arrived at this crazy-ass theory by wondering why the smoke monster as Locke seemed to have Locke's memories and could more or less act like Locke with only subtle differences. Then I thought about why it was necessary to bring Locke's body back to the island. The monster couldn't "inhabit" Locke unless he was dead. That's all been theorized already. The open question is whether Locke's impostor is actually aware of his own true nature.

But here's the really insane part - what if Ben was the smoke monster all along, too? What if he really died when Sayid shot him as a kid, and when Richard took young Ben's body into the Temple, the smoke monster simply replaced him? Obviously Ben's encounter with the smoke monster in Dead Is Dead wouldn't make sense then, unless adult Ben was unaware of his true nature and there were multiple smoke monsters impersonating different people. It's a stretch, but it would still make sense that Jacob's nemesis would try to manipulate the "other" monster in to doing its bidding.

But then Ben and Jacob would be the same entity. Unless Jacob is a different thing altogether. I'm still struggling to make that part work. The whole thing might be hogwash, but either way, the circumstances of young Ben's survival are highly suspicious.

[enemy anemone]

I just saw this on another board.

How To Make a Sandwich on the Island…

Jack

   1. Gather ingredients
   2. Point gun at ingredients and shout “HOW DO I MAKE A SANDWICH OUT OF YOU?!?!?”
   3. Breathe heavily through your nose as though you were about to hit ingredients
   4. Give up and make the sandwich yourself, and eat it bitterly

Kate

   1. Make separate sandwiches, one with peanut butter and one with jelly
   2. Take a bite of the peanut butter sandwich, declaring it the best
   3. Take a bite of the jelly sandwich, declaring it the best
   4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 ad infinitum
   5. Follow peanut butter or jelly sandwich into grave danger

Sawyer

   1. Throw the jar of jelly at wall, sneering “I don’t need no sandwich”
   2. Call the mascot on the jar of peanut butter lots of clever nicknames
   3. Huff and puff and stomp around and grumble a lot
   4. When no one’s looking, make perfect, even, symmetrical peanut butter and jelly sandwich and sit in a corner, enjoying every bite

Locke

   1. Sit idly by, believing that the ingredients will find a way to make a sandwich out of themselves
   2. Lose faith and make the sandwich anyway
   3. Realize that you were the instrument by which the ingredients chose to make a sandwich after all
   4. Run around the room and grab everyone’s knives, insisting that their sandwiches will do the same in time

Hurley

   1. Make sandwich
   2. Eat sandwich
   3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 ad infinitum

Sayid

   1. Procure 23 milligrams of uranium-20
   2. Set hadron supercollider to eight megajoules
   3. Program a sandwich-making macro using Cobol or Visual Basic
   4. Act all tough-like

Desmond

   1. Eat sandwich
   2. Call the sandwich “brother”
   3. Place peanut butter slice over jelly slice
   4. Spread jelly on the other slice
   5. Spread peanut butter on one slice
   6. Take two slices of bread, a jar of peanut butter and a jar of jelly

Ben

   1. Steal someone else’s sandwich
   2. Claim you coerced them into making the sandwich for you all along
   3. Say you’ll tell them everything if they make you another sandwich
   4. Stare at them all creepy-like

Libby

   1. Lay out plans for one of the most intricate, fascinating, and delicious sandwiches of all time
   2. Just as you start making it, get shot

Danielle

   1. Apply peanut butter
   2. Disappear for eight months
   3. Apply jelly
   4. Disappear for eight months
   5. Eat sandwich

Claire
1. Mmmmmmm, peanut butter

Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse

   1. Make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich
   2. Have someone take a bite, then tell them it’s a baloney sandwich
   3. Make up a whole bunch of other shit, then say you had planned it all along
   4. Buy a few yachts

[murlough23]

Desmond

   1. Eat sandwich
   2. Call the sandwich “brother”
   3. Place peanut butter slice over jelly slice
   4. Spread jelly on the other slice
   5. Spread peanut butter on one slice
   6. Take two slices of bread, a jar of peanut butter and a jar of jelly

That's awesome. The whole list is, really, but Desmond's instructions take the cake.

[RedcoatJones]

Outstanding! And only one more day until we see how this sandwich turns out...

[murlough23]

Jin:

1. Take two slices of Dharma bread, one jar of Dharma peanut butter, and one jar of Dharma jelly
2. Spread jelly on one slice of bread
3. Oops, that's Dharma caviar! Why do all of these miserable Dharma products look alike?
4. Get frustrated
5. Order Sun to stop eating sandwiches with Michael
6. Order Sun to read the labels and make a sandwich for you
7. Forget it, Sun is all assertive and stuff now
8. Give up and go fishing
9. Playing golf works, too.

[enemy anemone]

I saw this comment when I googled for the source of the original.

Michael:

1. Make sandwich.
2. Lose custody of sandwich.
3. Spend the rest of your life running through the woods yelling, "SANDWICH! SANDWICH! SANDWICH!!!!!"
4. Become hated by everyone.

[murlough23]

Shannon:

1. Flirt with men who look like they know how to make a good sandwich.
2. Wait for men to figure out how to make a sandwich.
3. Complain that the sandwich has crusts, and leave the sandwich-makers with crushed egos.
4. Get criticized by Boone.
5. Throw a hissy fit and insist you can make a sandwich for yourself.
6. Flirt with Sayid.
7. Throw another hissy fit, even though Sayid is capable of making a perfectly good sandwich.
8. Run off into the jungle recklessly looking for sandwich ingredients, and then - BANG! never mind.

Daniel Faraday:

1. Gather sandwich ingredients.
2. Marvel at the way the light scatters after hitting the bread.
3. Attempt to explain the molecular structure of grape jelly to starving onlookers.
4. Postulate that the sandwich they're still waiting for you to make has actually already been eaten. It's all relative.
5. What was step 5 again?
1. Gather sandwich ingredients.

[RedcoatJones]

Fun little Easter Egg on Kayak.com today:

Book a flight to Lost Island

[murlough23]

Of course The Onion had to get in on all the fun. Nice to see Damon and Carlton in on the joke.

Final Season of 'Lost' Promises to Make Fans More Annoying than Ever

[RedcoatJones]

Wow! I won't spoil anything for our West Coast friends, but 

[murlough23]

Wow! I won't spoil anything for our West Coast friends, but 

No more worries about spoilage, unless we have any Hawaii friends. Oh wait, they saw it this past weekend.

So, where to start? Why the hell was Desmond on the plane? Does a death in one timeline save the life of a person in the other? What else happened differently in the new timeline? Why did the island sink? Is Sayid really Sayid? (Is adult Ben really the same person as the young Ben who was brought into the Temple?) How can Miles and/or Juliet hear echoes of the other timeline (which is what I'm presuming he heard when he told Sawyer "It worked")?

[enemy anemone]

I feel like Bernard Black trying to do his accounts. "what?! what does it mean!! ....WHAT?!?!"

I am enjoying the alternate timeline stuff and reveling in the irony, but I'm finding myself increasingly annoyed at and apathetic about the more mystical stuff, like Jacob and the Smoke Monster and the Temple. I presume "all that stuff" is the key to the whole mystery of the island and everything, but...blah! maybe by the end of the whole series I will have changed my mind, but right now...what?!?!

[RedcoatJones]

I'm very intrigued by Jacob and the Man In Black/Smokey/NotLocke. It seems like the show is setting up a "religious" struggle between good and evil, but I wouldn't be surprised if the producers mess with our perception of who is the good one and who is the evil one.

One the best things about the new timeline is it really drills home how much these characters have grown and changed over the five seasons we've been watching them. Seeing them back in their 2004 form was both a nice bit of acting and a reminder that even with the changes hinted at, these characters might be better people for being on the island.

[murlough23]

I'm very intrigued by Jacob and the Man In Black/Smokey/NotLocke. It seems like the show is setting up a "religious" struggle between good and evil, but I wouldn't be surprised if the producers mess with our perception of who is the good one and who is the evil one.

I'm interested in who's on which side, and how that affects the show as a whole - whether the entire story so far is really just about a bunch of pawns in the Jacob/Esau war. (Yeah, some folks are calling the man in black "Esau" now. Clever, eh?) I like how they've pulled back year after year and redefined the central struggle - first it was petty fighting between supposed "good" and "bad" Losties trying to figure out how to live together, then it was Losties vs. Others, then Losties and Others in an uneasy alliance against the Freighter Team, which led to revelations about a long-standing war between Ben Linus and Charles Widmore, which ultimately led us to Jacob vs. Esau.

I wonder if deaths in one timeline affect lives in the other, and if the smoke monster isn't somehow trying to "course correct" by examining memories and determining whether a person belongs in this timeline at all. But that's wild conjecture. Jacob could also be trying to manipulate the timeline for his own purposes... and which timeline was he even in during all those flashbacks in last year's finale?

I can understand schil's trepidation about the show having more and more of a metaphysical focus these days. It's a far cry from the days when they had us believing nothing happened on the island that wasn't scientifically explainable. Mystical stuff means you can make up whatever rules you want, so some aspects of that sort of storytelling can be unsatisfying.

One the best things about the new timeline is it really drills home how much these characters have grown and changed over the five seasons we've been watching them. Seeing them back in their 2004 form was both a nice bit of acting and a reminder that even with the changes hinted at, these characters might be better people for being on the island.

Yeah, I'd hate to be watching these folks start over while not also seeing the growth in the 2007, original timeline versions of our characters. As cool as it was to play "what if", I was really dreading 2004 Jack having to beat Charlie back to life again (thankfully he didn't), or going through an episode's worth of angst trying to fix Locke's spine.

[enemy anemone]

I can't see Jacob and his nemesis as being Good and Evil. I mean, I see them as being opposed, but not "one is good and the other is evil." I read a comment stating that one is Life and the other is Death. I don't really see that, either. (just to clarify, I don't mean that I disagree and think they are definitely not Good/Evil or Life/Death--just that to me they look like blobs and I can't see the well-defined shapes that other people are seeing.) do they have to be concepts like those? to go back to the backgammon thing, one side is white and the other side is black, and they are playing against each other. but that doesn't mean one side is good or life and the other side is evil or death. they're just two sides. I had the brief thought that Jacob and Nemesis could be like two lesser gods whose constant quarreling and fighting resulted in a bigger god "sending them to time out" (the island? the world?) until they worked things out or one wins or they destroy each other, it doesn't even matter. I start thinking about these things and then I'm like "BLAH. DON'T CARE."

this is possibly the pettiest thing ever, but if an island sunk--how does an island even sink, but this island has apparently moved through time and space, so whatever--anyway, if an island sunk shouldn't the houses and swingset and stuff have been knocked over and demolished by the water? how are they even standing?? (yeah, this is what I'm interested in instead of Jacob and the monster who doesn't like to be called that.)

[murlough23]

this is possibly the pettiest thing ever, but if an island sunk--how does an island even sink, but this island has apparently moved through time and space, so whatever--anyway, if an island sunk shouldn't the houses and swingset and stuff have been knocked over and demolished by the water? how are they even standing?? (yeah, this is what I'm interested in instead of Jacob and the monster who doesn't like to be called that.)

I was thinking that Charles Widmore or some other nefarious person hid the island at some point after the bomb went off. Sounds ludicrous, but if he can stage the wreckage of a commercial airliner, anything's possible.

[enemy anemone]

in case folks haven't seen this posted elsewhere already, here is a side-by-side comparison of the Jack and Rose scenes.

I read one comment elsewhere about Desmond appearing on the plane during the time Charlie was dying in the restroom, connecting it back to how Desmond kept trying to save Charlie's life on the island. I can't say I follow how that is connected or what it might mean, but I thought it was interesting.

[RedcoatJones]

No comments yet on what has been my favorite episode of the season (granted we're only 3 epis in). Got a real Satan in the Garden of Eden vibe when Smokey Locke promises everyone the "true" answers that mean old Jacob has been hiding.

Oh, and for a good laugh, check out Never Seen Lost

[murlough23]

No comments yet on what has been my favorite episode of the season (granted we're only 3 epis in). Got a real Satan in the Garden of Eden vibe when Smokey Locke promises everyone the "true" answers that mean old Jacob has been hiding.

My big "Huh!" moments were realizing that B-Locke and his dad were on good terms and wondering about the implications of that (was he ever a con-man? How did B-Locke end up in the wheelchair?), and noting after eagled-eyed fans pored over the screencaps of Jacob's cave wall that the name "AUSTEN" was nowhere to be found, not even crossed out. So apparently Jacob has confirmed for us that Kate sucks.

Oh, and for a good laugh, check out Never Seen Lost

I guess that's some people's idea of humor. It just irritates me. Don't start watching a show in its final season (which is 18 episodes, not 12, by the way), and then bitch about how it makes no sense and the writers are just making stuff up as they go along.

[murlough23]

A friend's Facebook page indicated today that she had become a fan of LOST. My comment: "It's about time."

[murlough23]

There's been no discussion here for a while, so i figured I'd get the thread going again. Reactions to last night's episode, anyone? I thought it was absolutely brutal. I jokingly asked my boss for a bereavement day.

[Brenden]

They said a major character was going to die, I didn't expect four in one episode!

[murlough23]

They said a major character was going to die, I didn't expect four in one episode!

Lapidus is still debatable. Though his odds of survival don't look so great.

Is it weird that I got more emotional over Charlie's death, and I hated Charlie? With Sun & Jin (and I guess Sayid), I held out until the last second thinking, "They're candidates, so something'll prevent them from actually dying". With that not holding true, I figured I could still see them in the flash-sideways. So I'm not as incensed as some fans, but man, this better turn out to have been a sacrifice worth making. It better end well for these characters in the other timeline.

[Brenden]

I don't really mind them dying this way, but part of me was like, "Jin, leave, don't make your kid an orphan".

[murlough23]

I don't really mind them dying this way, but part of me was like, "Jin, leave, don't make your kid an orphan".

People on the TWOP boards were incensed about that. How could she not mention her kid and their obligation to not leave her completely orphaned?

[Brenden]

Yeah, I know they wanted a sweet final moment for them, but this has that serious problem.

[murlough23]

There was that, and the fact that despite having a gun pointed at her and even actually getting shot, KATE SURVIVED. 

[Brenden]

Why is she even on the show anymore now that they have established that she isn't important?

[murlough23]

Why is she even on the show anymore now that they have established that she isn't important?

Good acting? Eye candy? Because we care whether she ends up with Jack or Sawyer?

Alright, you got me.

[Silvah]

So this last episode "What They Died For" definitely has me excited for the Finale. Desmond's presence, as usual, adds a lot of suspense to the story without it being as frustrating and contrived as the mystical black/white, jacob/esau drama.

Also, is Desmond Jesus? lol.