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Author Topic: What is the U2 song comparing Jesus to Mohammad?  (Read 3662 times)
BennieM
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« Reply #120 on: November 26, 2005, 03:40:48 PM »

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The whole purpose of poetry is the communication of thoughts or feelings in a "fancier" form of language.
Fancy? Yuck. Wink

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What is meant is not always directly stated. It may not be reasonable to jump to a conclusion and say "Bono is definitely implying Q when he says P" - because of the nature of poetry, we can't know for sure (unless you're willing to take a statement from stage more as prose, which is how I'd actually be inclined to take it, given what I know of Bono.)
I think what Bono says on stage is prose. Not many people can write poetry on the fly--even people who can make great impromptu speeches, like Bono.

But when a poet speaks in prose, you can be sure he means exactly what he says. If he wanted to say something else, he'd say it. If he wanted to draw your mind to unrelated differences (however commonly implied), he'd actually do it. Bono didn't.

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Regarding your comment that we've known this about Bono for 25 years - you missed my point completely. I'm talking about someone who is not familiar with Bono at all, but just knows what he was told by the 60 Minutes broadcast, or what he knows on the surface from recently becoming a semi-fan of U2 who was interested enough to attend a concert.
Well, if they played any snippet from a U2 song, it should be obvious he's a poet. That's all my "we've known for 25 years" comment was about. He's a poet.

I'm not saying we've known about his theological convictions for that long. I sure haven't. And I doubt I would have even if I'd listened to the band from Boy onwards. But anyone who knows U2 knows he's a poet. Anyone at a U2 concert should know this. Unless you think Bono should operate under the delusion that people at his concert don't know this much about him, I don't see how I missed the point. I only said the 25-years thing about him being a poet.

And, as I said, a good poet means exactly what he says (no more, no less) when he speaks the easier-to-construct sentences of prose.
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murlough23
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« Reply #121 on: November 26, 2005, 05:20:57 PM »

Bennie, I don't disagree with anything you said in your last post. But it takes a lot of thought to understand that about Bono or anyone else. Do you really think that most casual U2 fans are thinking that carefully about why Bono says what he says? Or is their thought process more like, "Religious stuff, world peace, yada yada whatever, woohoo Bono, you ROCK!" The guy's charismatic. He could recite the phone book and they'd eat it up. I'm not convinced that the majority of U2's audience cares all that deeply about the message, beyond the fact that it's positive. That's not Bono's fault - he certainly wants people to care - it's just a bi-product of the fact that the music industry teaches most folks to approach music superficially, caring more about putting celebrities on a pedestal than the actual convictions of those celebrities.

Because of that, even if someone did misinterpret Bono's statement, I highly doubt they'd take that as all the proof they needed that they should believe in a pluarlistic worldview - unless they were already inclined toward that worldview and were just hearing what they wanted to hear. Not sound logic; we'd all agree on that. I guess what I'm more concerned about is well-meaning but uninformed Christians jumping to that conclusion and attacking Bono for it. That's the kind of infighting non-Christians will be influenced by; they don't need to see that. Should they be more informed before they judge? Certainly. But are their worries understandable? I think so. It may not be Bono's responsibility to disclaimer himself to the point where it makes all of his already-Christian fans happy. He probably doesn't have enough experience with the conservative arm of the American Protestant Church to even realize they'd take it that way. So I'm not attacking Bono; I'm just saying, someone who would take his statement to imply pluralism is not necessarily an idiot.
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bloop
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« Reply #122 on: November 26, 2005, 06:11:58 PM »

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And I am your example of a person who would take it that way if I didn't know as much about Bono. That person does exist.

Maybe, but that person is not you, even if the only reason it isn't is simply because you know Bono.  My statement goes further than that.  With further thinking past one's first impressions, perhaps impressions based on experiences with theologically liberal speakers, one should be able to figure out that a person who says that isn't necessarily implying pluralism is true - that a general rule cannot be formed that the statement implies pluralism.

If P doesn't necessarily imply Q, then a problem with logic arises if you don't do a little more homework to rule out or verify that Q is intended and implied.  Again, you did go further (at least to the extent of recognizing the speaker and applying what you already knew about him, but the same conclusion could be reached by someone willing to do a bit more) so you are not that person.  As of yet, the person you are describing hasn't surfaced, but he would likely be pretty easy to set straight if he did.

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I'm just saying, someone who would take his statement to imply pluralism is not necessarily an idiot.

I'm not disagreeing with any of your last post.  I would say that someone who holds fast to that implication after thinking further and having information presented to the contrary is at least grossly stubborn, though.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2005, 06:15:21 PM by bloop » Logged

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murlough23
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« Reply #123 on: November 26, 2005, 07:29:03 PM »

I can agree to all of the above. I'd get where that person was coming from, but I'd set them straight on the matter as quickly as possible. In any event, it does take some further thinking beyond the first impression to verify that Bono is not endorsing pluralism, though that impression may never cross your mind in the first place if you either (a) aren't used to dealing with (or being constantly warned about) pluarlistic thinking masquerading as Christian truth, or (b) are just the type to take most things people tell you at face value and not assume they meant to say anything else. And nothing wrong with either of those things, either.
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BennieM
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« Reply #124 on: November 27, 2005, 04:16:30 AM »

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I'm just saying, someone who would take his statement to imply pluralism is not necessarily an idiot.
I'll definitely agree. There are at least three possibilities: (1) I'm an idiot, (2) I'm unfamiliar with writers/art/poetry in general (this is probably the same as the rock-star mentality you listed), and (3) I'm dishonest.
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murlough23
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« Reply #125 on: November 27, 2005, 12:29:34 PM »

I'll take Door #2.
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BennieM
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« Reply #126 on: November 27, 2005, 01:52:15 PM »

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I'll take Door #2.
I'm sorry! You've just chosen a beach scene with nine forty-somethings in yellow speedos!
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murlough23
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« Reply #127 on: November 27, 2005, 07:59:44 PM »

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I'm sorry! You've just chosen a beach scene with nine forty-somethings in yellow speedos!
Well, now I know where Paul spends his summers.

Anyway, would you prefer to be an idiot or a liar instead?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2005, 08:00:30 PM by murlough23 » Logged
BennieM
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« Reply #128 on: November 28, 2005, 01:31:37 AM »

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Anyway, would you prefer to be an idiot or a liar instead?
No...   mellow  
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murlough23
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« Reply #129 on: November 28, 2005, 02:23:19 AM »

OK, so then what's wrong with option 2?
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BennieM
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« Reply #130 on: November 28, 2005, 03:44:14 AM »

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OK, so then what's wrong with option 2?
I said there was something wrong with it?  blink

Well, other than the implications of that scarring image...
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murlough23
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« Reply #131 on: November 28, 2005, 04:25:15 PM »

I thought you were trying to cleverly indicate that I had chosen the wrong one.

No further questions.
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ajyouthguy
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« Reply #132 on: December 19, 2005, 10:23:06 PM »

« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 10:24:15 PM by ajyouthguy » Logged

"When we spend so much time promoting everything we're against that the message of who we are for gets lost, when Christians are putting everyone else down, how is Jesus lifted up in that?." Doug Fields
murlough23
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« Reply #133 on: December 19, 2005, 11:26:39 PM »

^ See? Even reasonable people trying to examine the situation logically can misunderstand Bono's intentions.

NP: "We Both Go Down Together", The Decemberists
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