A question about CCM record sales.....

[PaulDA]

If 85% of people in this country call themselves Christians, as many recent polls have attested to (and even if that number was only 50%, that is still over 130 million potential customers), why isn't the CCM industry doing a better job promoting their product? If 85% of Americans are Christians (or say they are), why are the Dove Awards on second caliber TV stations and not even broadcast live?
Something is wrong here.
 

[Josh]

I'm sure the relative quality of CCM has nothing to do with it...

[PaulDA]

I'm sure the relative quality of CCM has nothing to do with it...

No it doesn't because the quality is just as good in my opinion.
I have not found any secular artists today any better than RSJ, Rachael Lampa, Yolanda Adams, Nicole C. Mullens, LaRue, Newsong, etc.
I think it boils down to most people who call themselves Christians like sinful stuff more than sacred stuff.
How else would all these sexual songs, videos and movies be so popular? If 85% of the country call themselves Christians, then about 85% of the people who buy the smutty stuff must also be Christians.
 

[Josh]

No it doesn't because the quality is just as good in my opinion.

Well, that's your opinion. But, if CCM sells as poorly as you're saying it does (I had always thought it sold quite well, but maybe that's a misconception), isn't it reasonable to assume that the average consumer disagrees with you?

And labeling all non-CCM stuff as secular and all CCM as sacred is just dumb. After all, if Christ is Lord of all things then it must be okay for Christian artists to write songs about all things-- including politics, sexuality, what have you.

Anyway, saying that all non-CCM buyers are attracted to bawdy things seems a lot less logical than saying that they simply don't think the music is as good-- and, based on conversations I've had with pholks, I can tell you that there are a LOT of people (myself included) who DO find CCM to be f significantly lower quality.

[Brenden]

I have not found any secular artists today any better than RSJ, Rachael Lampa, Yolanda Adams, Nicole C. Mullens, LaRue, Newsong, etc.

They exist, look harder, they're not gonna be all top 40 artists.

[Wildcatblue7]

Why don't I really listen to CCM anymore?  There's virtually nothing out there that appeals to me musically.  Lyrically, okay, but not musically.  I'm sorry, but there is no match for The Who (or their talented contemporaries, really) in the Christian market.  Sometimes I wish there was, but I think I'll stick with what I've got.  My main problem with modern CCM is that is latches on to the latest musical fad--which I guess is good business for them, and I don't fault them for that, but really annoying for those of us who don't like mainstream radio or the latest sonic fad.  I'm not saying there's nothing good in CCM, but Theodore Sturgeon made a good point:

"Ninety percent of everything is crap."

This applies to secular and Christian in my book.  I just happen to listen to the leftover ten percent of the secular more than the ten of the Christian.

[PaulDA]

They exist, look harder, they're not gonna be all top 40 artists.

Not to me.
Rebecca St. James is my second favorite artist of all time after James Brown.
I have heard the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, Aretha Franklin, Bob Dylan, Norah Jones, Alicia Keyes, you name 'em, and I like RSJ much better than any of them.
 

[Brenden]

They exist, look harder, they're not gonna be all top 40 artists.

Not to me.
Rebecca St. James is my second favorite artist of all time after James Brown.
I have heard the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, Aretha Franklin, Bob Dylan, Norah Jones, Alicia Keyes, you name 'em, and I like RSJ much better than any of them.

Of course, that doesn't mean they aren't better, just you don't like them as much.

I mean The Beatles and Bob Dylan are obviously better than RSJ, whether you like RSJ more or not.

[Wildcatblue7]

They exist, look harder, they're not gonna be all top 40 artists.

Not to me.
Rebecca St. James is my second favorite artist of all time after James Brown.
I have heard the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, Aretha Franklin, Bob Dylan, Norah Jones, Alicia Keyes, you name 'em, and I like RSJ much better than any of them.

Therein lies the rub.

See, because I think the opposite of you (even though I can't stand Dylan or the Stones), I don't have the same alternate (so to speak) you do.

It comes down to taste once more.  It always does.

[PaulDA]

I mean The Beatles and Bob Dylan are obviously better than RSJ, whether you like RSJ more or not.

Not to me they are not. Not in the least.

[Brenden]

I mean The Beatles and Bob Dylan are obviously better than RSJ, whether you like RSJ more or not.

Not to me they are not. Not in the least.

yes, you like RSJ more, but to say RSJ is from an objective standpoint better than The Beatles will get you laughed at by any decent music critic. Same with Bob Dylan. Both were extremely important in the history of their genres and revolutionized their genres.

That's all I'm saying, you're free to prefer RSJ all you want.

[NinjaRob17]

I mean The Beatles and Bob Dylan are obviously better than RSJ, whether you like RSJ more or not.

Not to me they are not. Not in the least.

I think he was talking about being more musically talented, not personal opinion. From an objective viewpoint, The Beatles and Bob Dylan were more artistically proficient than RSJ is. They were more innovative and displayed their talents to a higher level than RSJ. They created a name for themselves and influenced music in general more than RSJ probably ever will. The Beatles and Bob Dylan are music legends. RSJ is not.

[Brenden]

I mean The Beatles and Bob Dylan are obviously better than RSJ, whether you like RSJ more or not.

Not to me they are not. Not in the least.

I think he was talking about being more musically talented, not personal opinion. From an objective viewpoint, The Beatles and Bob Dylan were more artistically proficient than RSJ is. They were more innovative and displayed their talents to a higher level than RSJ. They created a name for themselves and influenced music in general more than RSJ probably ever will. The Beatles and Bob Dylan are music legends. RSJ is not.

That's exactly what I meant.

[PaulDA]

^I don't care about all that. Many people are 'music legends', that doesn't make them any better than someone I like.
That is not answering mu point about why CCM cannot be marketed to more Christians.
My answer to that is that the majority of people who call themselves Christians are only Christians in name only. The people who would actually go to heaven if they died tonight are probably a very small percentage of the 85% of Americans who profess Christianity.
If 85% of Americans were true Christians this country wouldn't be as sinful, greedy and corrupt as it is.

[Wildcatblue7]

if 85% of Americans were true Christians this country wouldn't be as sinful, greedy and corrupt as it is.

If anyone were truly a mirror of Christ, then there'd be a lot less sin in the world.  bad argument.

[NinjaRob17]

^I don't care about all that. Many people are 'music legends', that doesn't make them any better than someone I like.

There's a difference between liking a band/artist better and if a band/artist is musically better.

How about I give an example. Five Iron Frenzy is one of my favorite bands. I like them better than The Beatles. However, I acknowledge that The Beatles are better musically than Five Iron Frenzy. I don't really mind that fact since I favor Five Iron Frenzy over The Beatles, because for the most part, The Beatles aren't necessarily my cup of tea.

My answer to that is that the majority of people who call themselves Christians are only Christians in name only. The people who would actually go to heaven if they died tonight are probably a very small percentage of the 85% of Americans who profess Christianity.

You're correct. Plus, not all "real" Christians want to listen to CCM, because CCM is lacking in some genres. Country music is a good example. Most Christian country artists just go into the mainstream country music world, so you get the best of both sides in that genre. This is how I wish it was with all music, but that's a different topic.

[Brenden]

I don't care about all that. Many people are 'music legends', that doesn't make them any better than someone I like.

Yes, it very well may. Music legends become so because they have done something legendary to revolutionize music (The Beatles, Bob Dylan, Ray Charles, James Brown, even Elvis). Most of the artists I like are creative, but not rewriting musical history (like Jars of Clay). Jar of Clay will probably never be considered a musical legend. RSJ will probably never be considered a musical legend. Neither have done anything to revolutionize music.

But anyway, a lot of CCM does have sub-par music. This a big reason many christians stay away from CCM. If CCM actually promoted creativity, then the christians who stay away from CCM wouldn't mind buying CCM albums, because they would be creative albums.

It's not like christians can't make honest music about their faith that is loved by christians and non-christians alike. Look at Sufjan Stevens, I read a lot of atheists saying how much they love his music, because it's creative and the lyrics are honest. Thus they can enjoy the music and not feel "preached at" when Sufjan sings about his christianity.

[murlough23]

Hmmm. I'm trying to figure out the best way to express my views on this one. I'll go with bullet points.

1. Most people just don't listen to a lot of music.
This probably accounts for a good 90% of the Christians who don't listen to a lot of Christian music - or any at all. How often does the average consumer buy a CD? Probably sporadically every now and then, when they hear a song they like. And where are they most likely to run across that song that they like? TV. Radio. Movies. Hanging out in a restaurant with a friend. Most of what you'll hear "out and about", without making any concerted effort to hunt down new artists that one hasn't heard before (and most people don't make the effort because it just isn't that important to them), is popular mainstream artists, most of whom do not make "Christian music". I'd wager that most Christians aren't purposefully shunning Christian music - it's just that they don't take music that seriously in the first place. It's background entertainment, and they likely don't even know about the array of Christian music options out there.

2. Misconceptions of Christian music as being less artistically viable, or just a ripoff of yesterday's mainstream trends.
I can think of plenty of examples where these accusations against CCM artists are fair... but they aren't always. And I honestly don't think most of the buying public cares that much about artistic viability anyway. Still, there's that stigma that Christian music is generally a lot less "cool". It takes some effort to look past that and find artists who aren't just copying your favorite mainstream artists. Even to committed Christians who would like to hear music in a popular style, it can be awkward to hear cliche lyrics crammed into that style without much thought as to how the music and lyrics function together as a whole. You don't have to be a critic to realize something's weird there. And some Christians don't care if it's awwkard, so long as the lyrics are edifying... but some do care. Music is something that people like to share with each other, and these Christians have a justifiable reason for not wanting to waste their time on music that they'be be embarassed to share with their friends - even if they're making a false assumption that all Christian music is like that.

3. Unavailability of Christian music in their area.
I know that we have the Internet now, but that's an environment where you generally have to know what you want already, and be savvy enough to go find it (or be patient enough with the Internet to spend time sampling a bunch of stuff). I think most folks make music purchases on impulse and they aren't gonna do a lot of hunting, so they'll pick up something that catches their eye at the local bookstore/music store, that they remember as having that cool song they heard on the radio. Christian radio isn't available everywhere that mainstream radio is, and when it is, if often doesn't have as strong of a signal or as much diversity in music formats as mainstream radio. So the chances of most Christians hearing something that they would want to buy, and then being able to find it at their bookstore, are rather slim. You might consider that to be laziness on their part, but music is, for the most part, a hobby that people will pick up and put down at random intervals.

4. Unavailability of Christian music that fits their genre preference.
Kind of fits with my last point, but it's more focused on people who are trying to find music that they like, and just have a harder time because it's not a genre that is popular in CCM, and even the most popular artists in their genre are likely a hybrid version of that genre and something more commercially viable. If you like pop and rock and Gospel, there's tons of options - not so much if you're into some niche genre, or country or folk, or rap. Christian music of all varieties exists, of course, but it's much harder to find good examples of it because there's not nearly as much advertising to draw people to it.

5. Beauracracy and other crap that goes down in the CCM industry.
I'd wager that far fewer people know about all of the controversies that rage at a place like CMCentral or The Phorum on your average day regarding what bad decisions the big labels and head honchos in Nashville are making... and it's not like the mainstream doesn't have its fair share of politicking going on, either. But it's more disgusting when it happens in the name of Christ. And while I don't think quality CCM artists should take the blame for that, the fact of the matter is that a lot of Christians will become jaded once they hear about stuff like that and just not want any part of it.

I wouldn't put too much stock in that last one, or the artistic viability arguments that go back and forth, as major reasons why Christians don't buy a lot of Christian music. Those things mostly affect people who are already music junkies, and I think the big thing is that most people just aren't music junkies. Most Christians (and most people in general) just want to hear what will please them on the surface, and there's plenty within their reach to accomplish that without them ever having to realize a good reason to go digging in much less familiar territory for Christian music when the occasional mainstream CD does the job quite nicely. Whether that occasional mainstream CD is harmful or just innocuous (or heck, even something nourishing) is another story, and as much as it frustrates me that the music industry is basically a big popularity contest and the biggest names will almost always be the ones who catch people's ears most easily on a totally superficial level, I can't blame people if they're more into other things than they are music. The majority of people just don't think about these things, and I don't know that they need to. It's the Christians who do listen to a lot of music, and still never get beyond the superficially pleasing stuff, that I have a bone to pick with.

[MJanke]

I'm sure the relative quality of CCM has nothing to do with it...

Not true, Josh.

Since when has quality ever determined record sales on a mass scale? Sure, some great music rises to the top but for every one of those albums you have the Macarena, Ricky Martin, Jessica Simpson, Winger, Sir Mix-A-Lot, Barabara Streisand, Neil Diamond, Puddle of Mudd, Pretty Ricky, etc, etc, etc...

There is good Christian music out there, just as in the mainstream. And, just as in the mainstream, sometimes it's just harder to find. Murlough makes some pretty good points^.

I think the biggest answer to Paul's question is actually in Paul's original post.

If 85% of people in this country call themselves Christians, as many recent polls have attested to (and even if that number was only 50%, that is still over 130 million potential customers), why isn't the CCM industry doing a better job promoting their product? If 85% of Americans are Christians (or say they are), why are the Dove Awards on second caliber TV stations and not even broadcast live?
Something is wrong here.

I've bolded the important parts.

Just because a citizen calls himself a Christian doesn't mean he/she actually is one. Is a fat an who sits on his sofa with a bag of chips and watches football all weekend, and calls himself an athlete, really an athlete? To many people in this country, being born in American and attending church on Christmas Eve make you a Christian. We know that is not the case - it's more than just a birthright or a heritage. So when those "Christians" fail to be intersted in faith-based art, is it really any wonder? No.

[bloop]

I like murlough's answers.  I'd also add that, as much as I like disparaging them, awards shows tell some people (non-music junkies) what is "good" for them, and nary an award is pointing in CCM's direction except the Gospel categories.  The media plays, I think, but I'm not sure how strong their role really is.  I guess this could go with people's perception of artistic viability.

(they probably shouldn't CCM artists the major awards at this point as it's very seldom if ever that a CCM act is the best of a year.  However, there are many that win that aren't the best out there either, but that's beside the point).

One last item I thought about just comes from my perspective.  I see CCM artists, in large part, as thematically limited.  It's very rare that they'll get a little gritty, unsafe, or ponder things that are really hard.  I know there are exceptions, but I would guess that there are people who have the same perception I have, and they would rather listen to something more real to themselves and life as it actually exists.

[murlough23]

I like murlough's answers.  I'd also add that, as much as I like disparaging them, awards shows tell some people (non-music junkies) what is "good" for them, and nary an award is pointing in CCM's direction except the Gospel categories.

I would think that this is largely because of the ratio of "Christian music" to everything else. Compared to the big wide world of music, there just isn't that much "Christian music" to begin with.

One last item I thought about just comes from my perspective.  I see CCM artists, in large part, as thematically limited.  It's very rare that they'll get a little gritty, unsafe, or ponder things that are really hard.  I know there are exceptions, but I would guess that there are people who have the same perception I have, and they would rather listen to something more real to themselves and life as it actually exists.

That's the irony. You'd think that Christians would be the people who are able to be the most real about life, because they have a viable reason for hope amidst tragedy, so they can face the tragedy and grittiness and whatever else unflinchingly. They should be able to wrestle with the questions honestly and all that, leaving the rest of the world to its escapist devices. Unfortunately, since we've peddled a brand of Christianity in the United States that is succinctly described in All Star United's song "La La Land" (i.e. everything is happy, God'll give me everything I want, don't bother me with the more sacrifical or difficult aspects of the Gospel), it comes off as very unreal to the rest of the world. If we sang about the real Gospel, and God's real influence in our messed-up lives (because we're all messed-up losers) more often, I think that would resonate more with people... though a fair percentage of the world probably doesn't want to face that stuff either and won't get it, so it might not make us popular, but I think it will make us more likely to be taken seriously in the eyes of people who are honest with themselves and searching for real hope.

As for Janke's comment on most of that 85% not being all that serious about Christianity... I kind of thought that was Paul's position on the issue all along. And I don't disagree with it. I just wanted to point out that even among those who are serious about Christianity, there are still plenty of understandable reasons why they haven't gotten into Christian music. I mean, it's not like it's a requirement or anything.

[PaulDA]

I would think that this is largely because of the ratio of "Christian music" to everything else. Compared to the big wide world of music, there just isn't that much "Christian music" to begin with.



That's the irony. You'd think that Christians would be the people who are able to be the most real about life, because they have a viable reason for hope amidst tragedy, so they can face the tragedy and grittiness and whatever else unflinchingly.

Many CCM artists want to sing about God.
They have no interest in 'being gritty'.
There is nothing wrong with that.
Until all of you realize there are two kinds of Christian artists you are going to talk about this forever with no conclusion.
There are Christians who basically want to praise God in song, and they are singing mostly to Christians to uplift them and there are Christians who want to sing about their life and other topics, and they are trying to reach a broader market often times.
The ones who want to praise God in song are not going to to have many themes, because God and Jesus, salvation, redemption and praise are their themes, with Jesus as the main topic.

As far as Christians 'being the peeople who are able to be the most real about life, that would probably only be Christians who didn't frow up being a Christian from birth. Most Christians, from what i have gathered, who have been brought up in a Christian home and have embraced their faith since they were little, have very little concept of the real world out there. They know what is out there from the news, but they haven't experienced the problems of life as someone who was not a Christian until later in life has. I think I can safely say I have gone through a more sinful lifestyle, seen more decadence and and experienced more problems than the average Christian who was brought up that way from birth.
 

[Brenden]

As far as Christians 'being the peeople who are able to be the most real about life, that would probably only be Christians who didn't frow up being a Christian from birth. Most Christians, from what i have gathered, who have been brought up in a Christian home and have embraced their faith since they were little, have very little concept of the real world out there. They know what is out there from the news, but they haven't experienced the problems of life as someone who was not a Christian until later in life has. I think I can safely say I have gone through a more sinful lifestyle, seen more decadence and and experienced more problems than the average Christian who was brought up that way from birth.

As someone who was raised in the church, I agree. Christians who grow up in the church tend to be more naive then people who become christians later in life.

Of course, there are also naive people who haven't been raised in the church, I've run into a lot of these people. But they certainly are very common among "church kids".

[AliasPhoenix]

As far as Christians 'being the peeople who are able to be the most real about life, that would probably only be Christians who didn't frow up being a Christian from birth. Most Christians, from what i have gathered, who have been brought up in a Christian home and have embraced their faith since they were little, have very little concept of the real world out there. They know what is out there from the news, but they haven't experienced the problems of life as someone who was not a Christian until later in life has. I think I can safely say I have gone through a more sinful lifestyle, seen more decadence and and experienced more problems than the average Christian who was brought up that way from birth.

I hate this assumption.  I know I've been through a lot of stuff in my family that most homes, Christian or otherwise, haven't, and my dad's a minister.  So, does that make me an exception to the "norm" of Christian people in America?  No.  There are a lot of Christians, raised in "Christian homes," who experience as much crap as anyone else.

[Brenden]

You're an exception to the christians I've encountered.

[murlough23]

Many CCM artists want to sing about God.
They have no interest in 'being gritty'.
There is nothing wrong with that.

What's wrong is the assumption that the two are mutually exclusive. What did God save us from? Mostly, I just hear vague allusions to that which make it sound like we were saved from being just a little bit slightly kinda naughty. Telling a little white lie or stealing a cookie from the cookie jar. I see us putting forth a goodie-two-shoes image that says "Yeah, we admit we were sinners and God saved us, but you knwo, we're not really that bad." It admits to the truth of the Gospel in a very superficial sense, but people who have really faced up to the truth of their own depravity often feel like they don't belong when this Romper Room theology is all they hear on Christian radio.

Not that it's bad for there to be albums that are just simple worship songs with a mostly upbeat feeling. I just think it's disproportionate right now - too much of the same in that department, and not enough reality. "God is good" and "God loves you" are part of reality too, of course, but if we can't understand why no one is good on their own, even the most clean-cut and seemingly well-behaved CCM star, and what God loves us in spite of, then we're not getting a very accurate picture. As far as worship music goes, even a lot of the old hymns acknowledged our utter depravity and hopelessness without God.

Until all of you realize there are two kinds of Christian artists you are going to talk about this forever with no conclusion.

I do realize that. I don't want to force everyone to be the same. I'm just saking, why is CCM only really promoting the one kind of artist? They're the ones who need to realize that there are two, and give more equal weight to the ones who are willing to be more honest.

The ones who want to praise God in song are not going to to have many themes, because God and Jesus, salvation, redemption and praise are their themes, with Jesus as the main topic.

I think it praises God more to admit that He's involved in every little minute detail of your life (including your dark past, your romantic relationships, your travels, whatever), than to compartmentalize God off into this little corner of "worship music is the only music that is about God, and therefore it's holier than music on other subjects". I'm more interested in music that demonstrates God's principles. We have enough music that tells us how neat-o God is. God is great and does great things and is worthy of our worship, but I need to see examples, testimonies of how that is really affecting people's lives. Just sticking to the "La dee da, I love You Jesus" type of stuff doesn't really help me there.

As far as Christians 'being the peeople who are able to be the most real about life, that would probably only be Christians who didn't frow up being a Christian from birth.

Not necessarily. You weren't a Christian from birth (actually no one is, but that's beside the point), so you don't even fit your own generalization. I was a Christian since before I can even remember, and I don't fit that generalization. Maybe commonly, there is some truth to what you're saying, but there are plenty of exceptions. And if we're trying to reach the lost, then it stands to reason that we can expect plenty more Christians who were not raised as Christians to start entering the CCM world, and what are they going to sing about? Their real life experiences, or just the bland generalizations they're forced to sing about to be heard on the radio?

It's possible for people who were raised as Christians to turn away if their upbringing is too strictly controlled. This actually happens a lot - the classic "rebellious preacher's/missionary kid" syndrome, though they're not PK's or MK's, just kids raised in overly strict homes. There are other scenarios, too, where the parents and the church they grew up in were more or less doing the right thing, but the children still rebelled. Hey, it happens.

And like others have pointed out, some Christians who converted later are still quite naive. Depends on what they were taught by the people who brought them to Christ, I guess.

The bottom line is that everyone experiences hardship sometimes, and those who claim to have not experienced it are either full of B.S., or just not mature enough to have been through it yet. And quite frankly, I don't want to hear from either of 'em.

[PaulDA]

I think it praises God more to admit that He's involved in every little minute detail of your life (including your dark past, your romantic relationships, your travels, whatever), than to compartmentalize God off into this little corner of "worship music is the only music that is about God, and therefore it's holier than music on other subjects". I'm more interested in music that demonstrates God's principles. We have enough music that tells us how neat-o God is. God is great and does great things and is worthy of our worship, but I need to see examples, testimonies of how that is really affecting people's lives. Just sticking to the "La dee da, I love You Jesus" type of stuff doesn't really help me there.
 

You have a perfect right to want the type of music that you prefer.
What I am saying is that the type of praise and worship music that was in the Bible was all focused on God. That is the type of music many Christians want to sing and want to hear. The Bible says that when we are in Heaven we will be continually praising God, just as the living creatures are doing now.
That is Biblical worship, prasing God directly and simply.
It is fine for others to write other type of deeper songs to show God's love, but that doesn't negate the Biblical legitimacy of the style that you seem to get upset over sometimes.

[bloop]

Did you not read anything he just wrote?  He just said, in short, that there is a place for both kinds of music, but the CCM world is disproportionately skewed toward one over the other (I would guess because many of the Jesus cheerleaders just lack much talent for depth, but that's another discussion maybe).

Personally, I love singing either kind, although they should be well-written.  (The stuff one might typically find in a more charismatic setting just sets my face all wrinkly by the banal nature of what I'm singing.  Here I am caring about lyrics again!)

[PaulDA]

Did you not read anything he just wrote?  He just said, in short, that there is a place for both kinds of music, but the CCM world is disproportionately skewed toward one over the other (I would guess because many of the Jesus cheerleaders just lack much talent for depth, but that's another discussion maybe).
 

I read what he wrote. I don't agree that there are too many 'Jesus cheerleaders'.
I think that is an insulting term for people who love God and sing about him.
And I also think it's insulting that you think these people have less talent then the ones who sing convoluted lyrics no one can figure out!
I will ALWAYS prefer CCM singers who sing about Jesus primarily over introspective singers and there SHOULD be vastly more of those in CCM.
It's funny how virtually ALL black gospel is 'Jesus cheerleading', there are very few black gospel artists (as far as I know) who are like the introspective white CCM singers, yet black folks embrace these artists much more than whites embrace Jesus focused CCM. As a matter of fact, it is part of black culture! Now why can they accept people who worship Jesus directly and whites can't? Maybe because they realize that in the Bible, ALL songs to God were direct praise?

[Brenden]

I will ALWAYS prefer CCM singers who sing about jesus primarily over introspective singers and there SHOULD be vastly more of those in CCM.

As though there's always a difference.

I tend to find more personal worship specific lyrics to be far more reverent than cliches spewed out a mile a minute in the name of God.

[PaulDA]

As though there's always a difference.

I tend to find more personal worship specific lyrics to be far more reverent than cliches spewed out a mile a minute in the name of God.

That is the mantra on here, saying singing about Jesus is 'cliche', but, in actuality, most Christians who buy CCM CDs prefer Jesus lyrics. The vast majority of even the white pop/rock CCM is Jesus centered.
These types of boards make it seem like people prefer the personal lyrics more,
but most top CCM artists are worship related.

[bloop]

Many of the black Gospel singers I know also have the chops to sing very well.  If one isn't adverse to that kind of music, they'll stun you if they just open up a Western Civ book and begin singing from it.

So, yes, I guess I am much more interested in those kinds of lyrics if they're sung a bit more soulfully, but that's not what the kinds of artists I'm speaking about do.  It sounds more like a team of blandly-produced soccer moms playing "pass the melody line".  And, sorry, but they really are less talented, musically, than artists more subject to interpretation that are popular here, overall (mainstream or CCM).

Also, a lot of the black gospel music does come from a place of pain and difficulty, with hope abounding in spite of that, and thus has an element that is a bit more real to me.

[murlough23]

Hey Paul, have you ever read the Psalms? Just curious. That's a collection of praise songs, some of which are simple, but many of which use creative language to talk about praising God, and many of which are also personal prayers that express sorrow or even frustration about what's going on in the author's life. All of that dialogue between man and God is a worthy expression of praise to God. The simple stuff, and the more personal stuff.

I'm not asking for "convoluted" here. Songs that are much, much harder to understand are certainly an interesting diversion for me - I like solving puzzles. But that's just my personal thing, and that's not what I'm asking for our worship to be. I'm asking for an acknowledgement that the simple and the complex, the broad and the personal, are all useful means of worship. What we have now is mostly one-sided, learning towards the simple stuff. Simple is valid, but simple is not everything. If it were all complex, I would have the opposite problem. The industry leans toward the simple, because it appeals more instantly to the masses - not because it is more worshipful to God. To think that someone's personal testimony in their own words is less worshipful than a repetitive church chorus is a logical fallacy.

Paul, if you're going to continue to respond to what I'm writing, I'll ask you to please read it more carefully. You're making broad generalizations by saying that all I want is complicated, confusing stuff. I realize that you're much more easily confused and put off by lyrics that you can't immediately understand and/or relate to, and in fact the majority of Christian listeners may be like that, but I'm not saying that I want Christian music to become something that only the highly anayltical types can understand. Please honor my attempt to explain my position carefully to you by not putting words in my mouth and not turning this into another emotional crusade where you dig your heels in and refuse to listen to what the rest of us are saying. Thanks.

[Brenden]

That is the mantra on here, saying singing about Jesus is 'cliche', but, in actuality, most Christians who buy CCM CDs prefer Jesus lyrics. The vast majority of even the white pop/rock CCM is Jesus centered.
These types of boards make it seem like people prefer the personal lyrics more,
but most top CCM artists are worship related.

No! Singing about Jesus is not a freakin' cliche! Using the same catchphrases as everyone else to sing about Jesus is!

And the point of my post was you can be worshipful and personal at the same time. Like many Psalms, like Sufjan Stevens's Oh God, Where Are You Now. We can't restrict christians to only singing vaguely feel-good songs about Jesus and never going deeper and singing personal songs about a personal Savior. It's what is frustrating about much of CCM. For all I know, they have a powerful story of redemption and deliverence, but they either just hint at it vaguely or never mention it at all. So we get more feel-good fluff to frustrate another generation of christians who want something deeper.

[bloop]

^I'm with you.  Some of my favorite worship songs are very simple to get, and even not so personal, but they are also poetic in the way they describe God.  I don't see a reason to settle for less than the best we can do at expression when it's directed to God.  Just on a personal level, I'll feel very self-conscious and silly singing much of anything else, unless I'm helping children sing something - all of that strangely melts away a bit when I'm with my kids.

[murlough23]

And another point - if the majority of the Christians in this country aren't listening to Christian music, which is the premise of Paul's first post in this thread, then apparently "simple songs about Jesus" are not what the average Christian listener wants to hear. They're just what the small subset that is already listening to Christian music wants to hear.

[murlough23]

Like many Psalms, like Sufjan Stevens's Oh God, Where Are You Now.

Which was actually covered by the David Crowder Band, a well-known, reasonably popular, and critically respected "worship artist". It's not that hard to accomplish what we're asking for here, and the DCB is a good example.

We can't restrict christians to only singing vaguely feel-good songs about Jesus and never going deeper and singing personal songs about a personal Savior.

Depeche Mode sang about a personal Jesus.

[Brenden]

Depeche Mode sang about a personal Jesus.

As did Johnny Cash.

[PaulDA]

And another point - if the majority of the Christians in this country aren't listening to Christian music, which is the premise of Paul's first post in this thread, then apparently "simple songs about Jesus" are not what the average Christian listener wants to hear. They're just what the small subset that is already listening to Christian music wants to hear.

The average 'Christian' in this country (ie: probably most the 85% of the population here who call themselves 'Christians') don't really have much to do with anything that involves Christianity. They are the ones who support sexual R rated movies, they are the ones who buy all the CDs talking about killing cops, raping women and using expletives, they are the ones having abortions, selling and abusing drugs, living together unmarried, etc, and having no remorse for these things.
So to say they don't like CCM because of the quality is rather fallacious when you look at the whole picture.

[adriftconscious]

Hey Paul, have you ever read the Psalms? Just curious. That's a collection of praise songs, some of which are simple, but many of which use creative language to talk about praising God, and many of which are also personal prayers that express sorrow or even frustration about what's going on in the author's life. All of that dialogue between man and God is a worthy expression of praise to God. The simple stuff, and the more personal stuff.

I'll have to agree here. The psalms are indeed praise songs that are focused on God, but look closer. Some of those songs express real pain. Some question. Some complain and ask why. Its possible to write gritty, introspective songs that are completely focused on God and that are completely real and honest. I feel like some of the stuff that I hear when I listen to Christian music is almost diningenuous. I don't feel anything coming from the music, no emotion at all. Give me an artist who can express themselves without falling back and tried and true radio hit lyrics any day.

Also, the majority of the people who go out on a regular basis and buy new music today are younger. I buy three or four cds a month, my parents are lucky if they get that in a year. Many young people, and especially, I'm finding, young Christians are NOT satisfied in any way with most of what we hear from Christian radio and its more mainstream artists. In fact, I can't think of anyone on the floor of my dorm except my roomate who listens to a lot of mainstream Christian music. The same is true of the majority of my campus, and I go to a very conservative Christian school. Most of us are just sick of hearing the same thing over and over again and so we're going and spending our dollars on something that edifies us more. I, especially, believe that quite a lot of the more "Secular" music is infinitely more edifying to my spiritual growth than most Christian stuff.