The Radiohead Thread

[DvChWi]

This thread will be a general Radiohead discussion thread, so we don't clutter our other threads with too much Radiohead stuff.  We should probably also have a U2 thread, since every thread seems to turn into one anyways.  

To kick this off officially, here is a link to the Phantom Tollbooth's Kid A review page.   Read Steve Stockman's review.  What do you think?  I must disagree with him.  I myself was skeptical of Radiohead, and Kid A in particular, but that changed as soon as I listened to one of their albums.  Maybe I'm just weird myself, but I don't actually think that Kid A was actually that unconventional.  Compared to free jazz, of course.  

[bloop]

I disagree with the PT review of "Kid A", but he does approach it from the way he interacted with the album, so it's kind of unarguable.

Umm...I'll just do my standard "post all Radiohead albums with the number of stars I would grant to each".  I don't know if these stay consistent from month to month, which is probably the reason I don't do reviews.

Pablo Honey **
An only OK debut.  Some moments shine, but it's pretty "normal" sounding.  The Phantom Tollbooth guy would probably like it.  Best Song:  Blow Out

The Bends ****
A great improvement over Pablo Honey and one of the best albums from the British isles during that period of time.  Several classic Radiohead tunes, so best song is hard to pick.  I'm going to go with Street Spirit.

OK Computer *****
Defined Radiohead as a more experimental band.  A masterpiece that truly deserves its place in the R&R greats canon.  Best Song:  Paranoid Android

Kid A *****
Sure, Richard D. James did things like this well before Radiohead, but no one's done it better in terms of getting it to a wide audience.  Below it's electronic blips and bloops (I just had to...sorry), there is a very human element here.  Best Song:  Idioteque, but this was a toughy to decide

Amnesiac ****
A step back from Kid A...same concept, but the glue isn't as strong.  Still Pyramid Song is as good as any song in Kid A, so it gets my pick as the best song on the album.

Hail to the Thief ****1/2
Definitely one of my favorite albums from this year, although Delopoulos is very strong competition and only time will tell how the two grow on me.  A bit more cohesive than Amnesiac, a little more "forward" than Kid A(mnesiac) in general, so it tries to make most every Rh fan happy.  Being third-best in the Radiohead catalog is not a bad place to be.  Best song:  changes daily...Where I End and You Begin

best b-sides I've heard:  "Fog", "Bishop's Robes", "Talk Show Host", "Paperbag Writer", "Killer Cars"

Check out their U2 impersonation on the early On A Friday demos...you get some of those impersonations on Pablo Honey as well, before they were really comfortable in their own shoes I guess.

[Josh]

Briefly: OK Computer and Kid A are both masterpieces, and both are Top 10 favorites of mine. Aside from U2 and REM, Radiohead is the most important band of the past 20 years.

They're not weird just for the sake of being weird.

And they're not negative.

[bloop]

http://poubellelqt.free.fr/B-sides/

Enjoy!

Oh, and Michael Stipe loves Radiohead, I know that...and Radiohead loves REM as well (I think Yorke's favorite song by them is "Electrolite").  

Stipe is something of a mentor to Yorke, and there's a lot to like about both of their bands.

[Josh]

Yeah, the Radiohead-REM connection is pretty cool. Thom thanked Stipe on the HTTT lyrics insert.

And "Electrolite" is a beautiful song, but man, it's not even my favorite on New Adventures, much less my favorite of all.

[MattK]

Perhaps some of this maybe should be moved to jeffery overstreets board. I agree with the bends getting 4 stars and ok computer getting 5 however everything after that I dont believe should get ranked that high- 3 maybe or 3 and a half stars.  I dont necessarily believe these arguments but most of the arguments against radiohead have been what follows

1. Songwriting- I don't know for sure where I heard this so I don't take it as complete fact but it is said that for ok computer  radiohead drew words out of a hat and turned them into lyrics....which is something that is done commonly at high school creative writing class.  I will admit he has penned some great lyrics occasionally but I have trouble arguing the fact that songwriting wise (please understand this is not music wise-music wise they have been incredibly innovative)  arent there some high school students who could have wrote these words?  That has been a common argument (one that I don't buy and will defend radiohead to some degree for)

2.  What seperates this as critics have sometimes said as just being music to slit your wrists too?  I do believe Overstreet was correct in saying that we should appreciate the artistic and musical value but otherwise their work can be a  huge downer in the message that is presented if taken the wrong way ( a further fall into the abyss so to speak.

3. What seperates this from just being weird noises?

and 4. Their most vocal critics have said that most of the work seems very forced.  As if it's not something that is coming naturally to them.  That each album seems to be them forcing a different (critics choice of the day) sound that is easy for critics to praise but very difficult for the music buying public to digest.

So I will stick to my post earlier that the bends and ok computer are both albums that I proudly hold in my collection and I do like hail to the thief although it won't be getting much time in my cd player or ipod(an awesome device I might add) once ohio comes out.  Anyway feel free to shoot down all of the 4 above arguments, dish love on  radiohead, critique them, whatever.  I believe U2 had 3 masterpieces and radiohead 1.  U2 being my favorite band
 

[bloop]

I disagree, but there isn't all that much to discuss, Matt.  You just look at things differently, really.

1.  Songwriting - they've taken a different approach, and I think it works well.  They've never exactly been transparent lyrically, and it can be argued that its just stream-of-conscious psychobabble.  Sometimes, that could even be true, but it works for the music.  

I will say that you heard wrong if you heard that about OK Computer.  Yorke said he did that for some songs on "Kid A" (I think "Everything..." specifically).  There's also the simple arguement that they were trying to expand their musical vocabulary specifically with these later albums, and lyrics were somewhat incidental.  Personally, I think they've done it better than any in the past - much of IDM is lyric-less.

2.  Anything can be dangerous if taken the wrong way, so that arguement's pretty irrelevant.

3.  Melody or harmony or rhythm, and usually some combination of the three

4.  They've been pretty clear that this is not the case.  They've always done music that interests them at the time, but if that seems "forced", there isn't much to argue about - "seems" is a very subjective word.  I don't think it's that difficult for the music-buying public to enjoy as Radiohead doesn't do bad for themselves at all in terms of record sales.  They usually do gold-selling records at least, which isn't abnormal for a group of their type.

As I said, their last three albums are 5, 4, and 4 1/2 stars in that order, mostly on the strength of the songs themselves.

Radiohead has 2 masterpieces (OKC, KA), and U2 has 2 as well (AB, and TJT) IMO, but I'm not exactly wild about the band comparison game with these two.  I put both bands in my very highest tier of artists, and I like them for slightly different reasons.

[smartash]

weird as they are and i'll admit i dont always get them, i love them, loved them for years and i am GOING TO THE SHOW IN MARYLAND ON THE 20TH IF IT KILLS ME!!!

[MattK]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I agree with you on 1,3, and 4 but yet 2 is where the main discussion for me lies.  Technically yes anything can be dangerous.  Yet the gloom doom and despair issue is worth talking about.  I'm not looking to take sides on either end....although I prefer a little hope mixed in with my music. A famous painter once said I want to tear people apart and I also want to encouarage and heal them and I want to it do with the same work.  my problem with the last 3 records has not been in the lyrics so much as it just didn't appeal to me musically the way the bends and ok computer did.  Technically I have always wanted to tell people that hey this is more than just music to listen to when your feeling sorry for yourself or your depressed because I believe it is much more than that.  One of my favorite bands is pedro the lion, so I am constanly having to defend the exact same thing with them.  Musically it all comes down to I like this or I don't like this but  I'm interested in digging into the "void of hope" issue that comes out.

[MattK]

In defense of radiohead I will post an overlooked lyric from hail to the thief which I believe should be taken very seriously

get up go over get up go over and turn this tape off

check out www.cultureisnotoptional.com/issues/article/.cfm?issue=22&article=212 or check in back issues the july issue online

[Josh]

3. What seperates this from just being weird noises?

There's a method to the madness. Each weird sound has a purpose.

[bloop]

Can you even buy a "Hail to the Thief" tape?  Who knew?

heh...let's be honest.  MOST weird sounds have a purpose.  Those "laser toy gun" sounds at the end of "Sit Down, Stand Up" seem pretty tacked-on IMO...out-of-place somehow.

[Josh]

Yeah, good call, bloop. I'll give you that one.

As for Radiohead being music to slit your wrists to... um... the whole point is that they're revolting against all things anti-human. They're pointing out the ways that the devil works in our world, so that we can avoid those traps. I'm missing the negative part here...

[MattK]

Radiohead believes in the devil?

[Josh]

Actually, yes. I'm not sure if Thom believes in God, but he has suggested in interviews that he believes in the devil.

Not that that's really important. Their music shows the devil at work in our world, whether Thom likes it or not.

[MattK]

That is interesting and his arguments against a lot of issues are justified. I would like to read that interview sometime. I'm still looking for an interview I remember where Thom mentioned Bono....cant remember what about him. Anyway its time for bed.  Enough Radiohead talk for one night.  Has anyone heard the original version of no suprises....called no suprises please.....I believe it can be found on greenplastic.com (if that is still up I havent been there in a very long time) a better quality version can be found but man its not as good as the version placed on ok computer but its an amazing track that sends chills up my spine. Later everyone

[bloop]

Having now listened to those b-sides I posted, why does Radiohead not use their best b-sides on their albums?  "I Am a Wicked Child" would make a fine replacement for "Scatterbrain", and would fit with the overall theme just as well.  

"Fog" (the original b-side, not the new live version which is OK) was a great song...much better than "Pulk/Pull" from Amnesiac.

[bloop]

One more question....maybe jumpstart this thread a little.  It's well-documented that Radiohead is at least ambivalent about entertaining their audience, and the arguement finds support in their documentary "Meeting People is Easy" and as recently as their DirectTV special.  My parents taped it for me and at one point Thom says something like:

"I have an obligation to give my audience a good time.  *laughs to himself* *repeats phrase*...sounds sort of . . . kinky."

Question:  Does this attitude tend to alienate you, draw you closer, or do neither in regards to their music?

(for the record, I laughed when he said that...it's funny)

[Josh]

I think it's funny. And he's right... it does sound kinky. And...cheap.

[bloop]

He also says somewhere that "The Gloaming" is about the rise of the right, and this world is being run by "maniacs".  Other band members have gone on record in saying that political music doesn't really work, but this seems to contradict that.  On the other hand, Yorke seemed somewhat apologetic for that on the tape, saying something like "politics is addictive and spins out of control quite easily" and "my political beliefs are best left to the music" (translation:  as little proseletyzing as possible is a good thing from me).

I'm not a big fan of politics invading my music...I certainly don't need a rock star to tell me what to think.  One of the few things about the band that annoys me lately, other than some Pablo Honey songs and "Pulk/Pull" from Amnesiac.  I hope they never degenerate into "Rage Against the Fake Plastic Trees".

[Skrappybiskit]

Putting aside the arguments about whether Radiohead is musically valid, which seems pretty much a moot point unless you happen to believe that music only hits major keys, what do you think Radiohead is going to do next?

I was thinking a sort of electronically inflected folk would be cool...

Skraps

[bloop]

Bluegrass electronica fusion.

Actually, I have no idea.  Thom said it will be "unrecognizable", but I hope he's full of it.  I do want it to still be a Radiohead record.  A fast way to turn me off is changing up style just for that purpose, whether it's a fit for your band or not.  He's been apologetic for sounding like Radiohead lately, and there's no real reason for that.

[Josh]

I would LOVE it if Radiohead integrated more jazz into their music; they seem to be able to play the jazzier, soulful stuff pretty well.

[bloop]

I like your idea, Josh...the band would really have to show some chops with their playing if that's the direction they wanted to go.  I think Selway, Jonny Greenwood, and Yorke (vocally) could definitely handle it, we'd have to see about the others.  Good jazz requires a lot of good, technical playing.

[Skrappybiskit]

Amen. Freestyle jazz even moreso. What I'd love to see radiohead do as well is tour with an entire orchestra, or at least a medium-sized string ensemble. That would rule.

Skraps

[RokrantheGreat]

I'm sorry to say it guys, but I listened to Kid A and OK Computer during my trip, and I still don't like them. Sorry. OK Computer was actually much better than I expected. But then I listened to Kid A... Didn't like it at all! It seemed to me to be completely random, just a collection of sounds thrown in in an attempt to seem "original" and "deep." Didn't appeal to me in the least bit. As I said, OK Computer was much better, and I enjoyed Paranoid Android much more than the first time I heard it. But overall, I think I've given up on Radiohead.

[bloop]

They aren't for everyone, but I'd be careful trying to judge the motivations of the band in making "Kid A" the way that they did.  I disagree with you on the record, but your opinion isn't an uncommon one that I haven't seen before.

[Skrappybiskit]

But of course you must be an "artistic dimwit" like Josh's siblings, so I don't know what to say

Skraps

[bloop]

That's just not kosher...Josh left.  I don't think that was the point of Josh's post...I don't think he would make a list of bands that you must like or risk idiocy.  I know I wouldn't.

(On the other hand, I think there are certain bands that should be respected artistically whether I or anyone can get into them or not, and I kind of put Radiohead in that category)

[DvChWi]

Rokran, don't give up!  OK Computer is a great album, and Kid A, while not as good in my opinion, is still a good album.  It seems weird the first couple listens, but now, I don't really know why I thought it was so odd.  Maybe because of the title track.

[Skrappybiskit]

*sigh* the joke has met it's death... I meant that tongue in cheek yall.

Skraps

[bloop]

I think "Kid A" is as good or better than "OK Computer".  It's highly ambitious, technically proficient, and challenging - but at the same time, it's also the best anyone has ever done at marrying IDM to a pop/rock sub-structure that keeps it grounded and listenable.  

The second act, "Amnesiac", is also good and maybe even a little more conventional, but less liquid and flowing, and more jarring, than "Kid A" and thus, not as good, IMO, even though it contains some of their best songs.

"Hail to the Thief" is an improvement over "Amnesiac" because it flows better and the songs are just as strong, with a renewed sense of energy (and an actual 5-piece band) on certain tracks, but it loses to the OKC/KA double-attack because it just isn't nearly as ambitious as those records.

[Josh]

Alright, here's the hard part... favorite Radiohead songs.

I'll list my Top 10, but NOT in order of preference:

2+2=5
Sail to the Moon
Wolf at the Door
Pyramid Song
The National Anthem
How to Disappear Completely
Idiotheque
Paranoid Android
Let Down
No Surprises

Honorable mentions:
You and Whose Army
Everything in its Right Place
Motion Picture Soundtrack
Karma Police
Climbing Up the Walls
The Bends
 

[bloop]

Well, if I was to make a best-of album, it would look like this (I would play with the track order, but these songs would probably make the cut):

Blow Out
Street Spirit (fade out)
Fake Plastic Trees
Talk Show Host
Paranoid Android
Climbing Up the Walls
Airbag
Everything In Its Right Place
The National Anthem
Idioteque
Pyramid Song
Dollars and Cents
Fog (b-side, not the new live version)
2+2=5
There There
Myxamatosis

Basically, just chose three songs.  Slimming it down a bit, I would eliminate Blow Out (the sole PH track), Talk Show Host, Airbag, and Dollars and Cents for a nice, round, 12-song best-of.  

If I actually wanted Radiohead to sell records, I would replace something with Creep.  Whenever they actually get such a thing, I'm sure that'll be on it.

[DvChWi]

Alas, I have only heard OKC, Kid A, The Bends, and There There from HTTT, so my list will be limited in its scope.  To make up for this, I tried to arrange the tracks in an order I would like, that you might like to. =D

Airbag(best intro ever, IMHO)
The Bends
Climbing Up the Walls
Lucky
The National Anthem
How to Disappear Completely
High and Dry
Karma Police
Fake Plastic Trees
Subterranean Homesick Alien
Everything in its Right Place
Idioteque
There There
Street Spirit(Fade Out)

And, if you think it would be an OK edit, the bonus music near the end of Kid A.

Thats my list.  Enjoy

[DvChWi]

This is just a post to point out the greenplastic.com is a very cool Radiohead site.  Check it out. B)  

[bloop]

This is just a post to point out the greenplastic.com is a very cool Radiohead site.  Check it out. B)

Yeah, that and ateaseweb are very good fan-created sites.  The official site is a bit much for me...I like things to be more navigable, but I guess it's a mirror of the music.

We should find a way to make the official phorum best-of Radiohead disc.  It'd be cool, and I'd probably burn it.

[Josh]

We should find a way to make the official phorum best-of Radiohead disc. It'd be cool, and I'd probably burn it.

I would, too, so long as we make a rule that Pablo Honey songs don't count, simply because I don't own that album and therefore can't burn those songs.

How would one go about making such a disc?

[bloop]

We should find a way to make the official phorum best-of Radiohead disc. It'd be cool, and I'd probably burn it.

I would, too, so long as we make a rule that Pablo Honey songs don't count, simply because I don't own that album and therefore can't burn those songs.

How would one go about making such a disc?

I don't think a Pablo Honey song would make the final, maybe 12-17 song cut anyway.

To answer your question, one word:  survivor.  Long and arduous, yes, but we could vote off songs from each album until we get about 4 from each (6x4 = 24 songs), then widdle that down to whatever number we decide would be good (I think 12 would be best).  It would work with almost any band so long as there was reasonable participation.

Now, I haven't come up with a good way to get a democratic track order for the songs we'd eventually decide make the cut.

[Josh]

I'd play if you or someone else was willing to moderate it, bloop.  =)