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Author Topic: Was there a fracture in the Trinity when...  (Read 837 times)
Tom
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« on: December 28, 2005, 09:21:28 AM »

« Last Edit: December 28, 2005, 09:27:12 AM by Tom » Logged
Tom
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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2005, 09:24:49 AM »

i would caution us all to tread lightly in attempts to answer this. try to use ample Scripture to validate whatever points you guys make. i feel this is not something to treat flippantly, so let's consider what we say about it carefully.
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Tom
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« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2005, 12:03:05 PM »

i'll have to tell my friend that his question is too hard! if it has The Phorum silent, it must be as hard to answer as i perceive it to be.

 
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Josh
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« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2005, 12:08:27 PM »

Tom, I actually do have some thoughts on the matter, but not enough time right now to really sort them out. But I WILL get back to you on this one within a day or two!
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Tom
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« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2005, 12:54:22 PM »

cool! i look forward to hearing your thoughts.
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brenton
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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2005, 09:06:07 PM »

Something I thought of before.

IMHO, "why have you forsaken me?" does not mean that God has forsaken Jesus (or God's self, as the case may be).

What I suggest is that:
1. We read the gospels with their Hebrew background.
2. We look not only to theology or doctrine or truth with a capital "T", but also spirituality.

With those things in mind, listen to this cry of our Lord:
Quote
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer;
and by night, but find no rest.
3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In you our ancestors trusted;
they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried, and were saved;
in you they trusted, and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm, and not human;
scorned by others, and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock at me;
they make mouths at me, they shake their heads;
8 "Commit your cause to the LORD; let him deliver-
let him rescue the one in whom he delights!"
9 Yet it was you who took me from the womb;
you kept me safe on my mother's breast.
10 On you I was cast from my birth,
and since my mother bore me you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls encircle me,
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax;
it is melted within my breast;
15 my mouth  is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs are all around me;
a company of evildoers encircles me.
My hands and feet have shriveled;
17 I can count all my bones.
They stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my clothes among themselves,
and for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But you, O LORD, do not be far away!
O my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my life  from the power of the dog! 21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
From the horns of the wild oxen you have rescued me.
22 I will tell of your name to my brothers and sisters;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him;
stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he did not despise or abhor
the affliction of the afflicted;
he did not hide his face from me,
but heard when I cried to him.
25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the LORD.
May your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the LORD;
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before him. 
28 For dominion belongs to the LORD,
and he rules over the nations.
29 To him,  indeed, shall all who sleep in  the earth bow down;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
and I shall live for him. 
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord,
31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn,
saying that he has done it.

There are prettier translations, but this one is fine.

Psalm 22 is a lament song. The Psalter is the "bedside reading" of the first century Jew, the haunting and echoing refrains that reverberate in the chest of the Jewish synagogue-goer. This is their spirituality, their expression of love for God. It is more honest than hours tends to be, and rote prayers more free.

In this prayer, Jesus' words begin for all listening the lowest of lows. But as the Psalm goes, the Psalmist is exalted with every step glog exalts the Lord and lowers glog's self.

And, of course, it leads into the next Psalm: "The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want." As the audience mumbles along with our Lord, wind and darkness and Roman soldiers laughing over dice, the Lord God is with them. "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death."

No fear, deliverance, salvation, hearts reaching to the LORD.

It is not a theological statement about God's Godness and the eternity of sin and sin's crushing. Rather it is an evoking of spirituality, the great Hebrew tradition we are children of.  
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bloop
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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2005, 11:31:06 PM »

Quote
i would caution us all to tread lightly in attempts to answer this. try to use ample Scripture to validate whatever points you guys make. i feel this is not something to treat flippantly, so let's consider what we say about it carefully.
No kidding!  My first reaction (and second, third, and fourth - this is probably my fifth) to reading the thread title was simply "AVOID!  You know nothing".  I'll just read what others say on this one, if you don't mind.  Maybe I'll learn something.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 11:31:50 PM by bloop » Logged

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Tom
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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2006, 08:20:52 AM »

Quote
No kidding!  My first reaction (and second, third, and fourth - this is probably my fifth) to reading the thread title was simply "AVOID!  You know nothing".  I'll just read what others say on this one, if you don't mind.  Maybe I'll learn something.
ditto! when my friend asked me, i was speechless. still am.

but i figured if there was any place i might get some opinions it would be here. but you'll note that while i'm usually willing to jump right in there, even if i brought the question up, this time i am curiously silent.
 unsure  
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dgp11776
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« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2006, 02:30:42 PM »

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No kidding!  My first reaction (and second, third, and fourth - this is probably my fifth) to reading the thread title was simply "AVOID!  You know nothing".
bloop, you hit it on the head.  This is my reaction as well, mostly because I believe it is something our minds cannot understand...and maybe never will.
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BennieM
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« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2006, 07:24:41 AM »

I like brenton's post and completely agree with it.
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Tom
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2006, 11:33:09 AM »

i found a place online that gives what i would call a decent explanation of some of the roots to the question of "fracture" in the Trinity.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/properties.htm


what do you guys think of this response? even though it isn't the exact answer we are looking for, i think it answers a lot of the questions leading to it.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 11:33:46 AM by Tom » Logged
brenton
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2006, 07:20:11 PM »

Quote
i found a place online that gives what i would call a decent explanation of some of the roots to the question of "fracture" in the Trinity.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/properties.htm


what do you guys think of this response? even though it isn't the exact answer we are looking for, i think it answers a lot of the questions leading to it.
I'm a big phan (am I cool? :P ) of the systematic theologians, including Berkov, Hodge and the guys inferred in the link.

But, but, a humble but. I think the age of systematic theology has passed. If I was intelligent enough I would rethink these theologies and do a systemic theology, not systematic.

But mostly, theologyneeds to be rethought in light of the collapse of modernism (or reemergence of it), and especially the thing I mentioned above: the Old Testament, Hebrew thought in the New Testament. It is the first thing we need to do when we read a passage in the New Testament.
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Josh
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2006, 11:35:46 AM »

Just came across a quote that made me think of this thread. G.K. Chesterton says:

Quote
"When the world shook and the sun was wiped out of heaven, it was not at the crucifixion, but at the cry from the cross: the cry which confessed that God was forsaken of God. And now let the revolutionists choose a creed from all the creeds and a god from all the gods of the world, carefully weighing all the gods of inevitable recurrence and of unalterable power. They will not find another god who has himself been in revolt. Nay (the matter grows too difficult for human speech), but let the atheists themselves choose a god. They will find only one divinity who ever uttered their isolation; only one religion in which God seemed for an instant to be an atheist."
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