Kutless - Hearts of the Innocent

[murlough23]

I'm just not sure that putting more cereberal artists on the pedestal lessens the problem.  I know it certainly didn't in my case.  For a time in my life, music was my God and I was neither a baby Christian or listening to artists like Kutless.  To put someone on a pedestal deals with more than maturity level, spiritual or otherwise.

My point was that it's wrong to put any artist on a pedestal. The more mature artists are simply more likely to warn you not to put them there in the first place. (Though some less mature artists will still write cliche songs about it - the "hey, look at me, I'm a celebrity but I'm actually a real person!" thing can get kind of played out sometimes in a reality show-hungry world where exposing your warts and zits and whatnot gets mistaken for maturity. But hey, at least they're trying to redirect rather than teach, which is a good thing.)

And none of that is meant to imply that the members of Kutless, or any other band, would seek to be put on a pedestal, or would like it if they ended up there. This isn't a problem of artists seeking their own glory. It's more a problem of overstating the case in terms of the power of a song. A lot of these simplistic "baby food" artists seem to think that they can cram the same old words into a new four-minute song that will make large masses of people convert. More often than not, if the mass conversions do happen, it's due to a temporary emotional response that doesn't really last. It's a case of the seed falling on good soil but being choked out by the weeds. Is that personal still a Christian and still saved? Yes, certainly. I'm just wondering if maybe it's better, for the sake of the kind of influence it will have upon the church, if we try instead to cast the seed on the ground that is most ready for it. Certainly all Christians, even those who here and genuine and true message and respond to it for the best of reasons, will go through their periods of being choked out by weeds. I'm not saying that we should eject such people from the Church. I just wonder why we spend so much of our time using such temporary and flimsy tactics to convert people. It's like, so long as it gets 'em through the doors, we don't really care if it sells God short. And I'm like, what happens to 'em after we get them through the doors? What happens when the cliches we taught them, the things on the basis of which they converted, no longer hold true?

Ah, you say, but the cliches of the Gospel always hold true - doesn't matter if they're cliches, because the truth remains the truth. I wouldn't argue with you there, other than to say that "simple message" songs often make the mistake of over-generalizing and trying to make things universally applicable, to the point where key aspects of who God is are lost in the shuffle. Can all of this even be communicated in one song, or one album? Probably not. That's more of a job than any one artist can do, I think. The problem is that we spend so much emphasis on "Just get people to warm up to this Jesus thing, just make 'em believe they'll be happier being called Christians, and they won't go to hell, and tell 'em enough to keep 'em in line after they become Christians, and our work here is done." There's so little effort being spent on expression of the more complex (for man to understand, anyway) facets of who God is, that we just end up with these stagnant Christians who are foreign to the idea of Christianity actually being a lot more complex than it was made out to be when they signed up for it. And a number of those eager masses of converts can grow very jaded and cynical at that point. Whose fault is that? What did we teach them to expect? Did we pose Christianity as a quick-fix to wipe away all their tears and to make them stop feeling guilty? Or did we truly confront them with the truth that salvation is free and available to all, but it'll cost you everything to follow Jesus and it'll be really difficult? Christian radio doesn't teach that. Kutless only hints at it in black-and-white generalities. Were there just a few instances of artists sidestepping the difficult and sometimes even paradoxical nature of the Gospel... eh, no big deal. The fact that the majority of Christian music (or at least, the most visible and popular stuff) does this... well, that just pisses me off. And I don't want to see us continuing to support that with the lame argument that "Well, at least people are getting saved."

[murlough23]

That's a valid point. I know some folks, who are not your "baby Christians" but are supposedly the enlightened and mature, who idolize the superior, more talented bands and artists in extremely unhealthy ways. That's just as wrong and unfortunate as a new Christian thinking Carman's music is a blueprint for life.

I've acknowledged the existence of people with said attitude in the past. It's annoying. Some of these more mature artists who are so exalted by the more "mature" Christians on the basis of their artistic integrity, etc., would actually be the first to tell you not to take this unhealthy perspective. Take Derek Webb, for example - a lot of his songwriting puts emphasis on the fallacy of claiming we "need" things other than Jesus. He's likely tell us that his CD's are included in that list of things that we don't need to purchase in order to be saved or be closer to Jess. Obviously, he wants to endorse ideas and teachings that would help us to draw nearer to Jesus. But the music is there more to reflect the truth than it is to be relied upon as a praimary source of teaching the truth, I think. If fans don't recognize this and they're putting him up on a pedestal as Christian music's latest "savior" or a man that you have to listen to in order to get your spiritual act together, then that is arrogant and they're guilty of the same problem as the "baby Christians" who idolize Kutless and hang on their every word - it's just a more ironic and harder-to-spot problem.

Just because an artist puts out a message that the church needs to hear, or celebrates the diverse character of who God is in an artistic way that totally excites me, I'm not going to say that Christians need to hear this in order to better their lives. There are other ways of those points getting across to them that are equally valid. I'll celebrate and recommend the artis's effort because I believe they're promoting good things, but the principles supercede the person. Idolizing an artist is wrong in any context, and I sincerely hope that's not what you think I'm doing when I advocate artistry and creativity, and disparage the work of artists who do not consider these things to be important. I strongly believe that we serve a creative God; any effort made in an instrinsically creative medium which promotes mindless copying and rote spouting of cliches can only offer a drastically incomplete picture. I simply can't bring myself to respond in any way other than to recommend that people steer clear of that stuff.

NP: "Save Me", Remy Zero

[Brenden]

He's likely tell us that his CD's are included in that list of things that we don't need to purchase in order to be saved or be closer to Jess.

Of Jesus for that matter?

[AldaForPresident]

I hope no one feels like they have to buy a Derek Webb CD in order to be closer to me.

[bloop]

[murlough23]

OK, so you found my typo. Cute. That's one worthy of Paul.

Now, somebody respond to my actual thoughts, please.

NP: "Maybe There's a Loving God", Sara Groves

[plumb_fan]

OK, so you found my typo. Cute. That's one worthy of Paul.

Now, somebody respond to my actual thoughts, please.

NP: "Maybe There's a Loving God", Sara Groves

But there's just so much.

[Brenden]

What happens when the cliches we taught them, the things on the basis of which they converted, no longer hold true?

Their faith may waver, they may fall away because they feel that they've been lied to.

Many times I don't even think the church at large worships Christ anymore, but instead we worship an idea, one that we can box and understand. We prefer the sanitized and safe version to the reality. A friend of mine commented that he thinks the church is closer to Gnosticism nowadays instead of Christianity, because of the increased importance placed on knowing the right doctrines rather than faith in Christ.

But I'm not sure that's related to the thread.

[murlough23]

Their faith may waver, they may fall away because they feel that they've been lied to.

Bingo!

And while it's more the job of pastors and other spiritual leaders, trusted friends, and the Bible itself to teach solid doctrine than it is the job of musicians, musicians ought to at least not be doing anything counterproductive to that teaching. What appears to be "mostly harmless" on the surface can actually be a flawed and immature concept of God (especially when us vs. them tactics or a worldview of everything as totally black and white is involved). People take their music to heart most of the time, I think - you may have your people who just like the sound and don't care about the lyrics, but if that's the case, why should they even bother listening to Christian music? As for everyone else, especially new believers, if they're specifically seeking out music with "Christian" lyrics, presumably it's because they want to fill their minds with something that's going to help them grow in Christ and not be led astray. They might not expect the music to actually teach them anything, which is fine, but at the very least, it ought not to be misleading them by oversimplifying the case.

Of course, every human attempt to describe God is an oversimplification. But that's why I think Christian music, even when it's simplistic, is better off acknowledging the depth and the wonder and the difficulty of complete understanding, rather than using grade-school lyrics to continuously dwell on "baby food" topics. A few people will need the "baby food" as they get started out, I guess... but we are manufacturing more than enough of it to meet their needs already. And even the "baby food" shouldn't confuse simple concepts of who God is with things we made up about God to make us feel more comfortable.

Many times I don't even think the church at large worships Christ anymore, but instead we worship an idea, one that we can box and understand. We prefer the sanitized and safe version to the reality. A friend of mine commented that he thinks the church is closer to Gnosticism nowadays instead of Christianity, because of the increased importance placed on knowing the right doctrines rather than faith in Christ.

But I'm not sure that's related to the thread.

It's related to the thread in that Christian musicians (sometimes not intentionally) often come off sounding like goodie-two-shoes who already have everything figured out. I mean, they'll admit they're sinners if asked and even vaguely allude to it in a worship song, but they don't seem to really be in touch with their own messed-up-ness. There's so much focus on instruction and alienating ourselves from the rest of the world, and these things come from good Biblical ideas, but have been exaggerated to the point where it becomes this weird cultural crusade and we think we're better than those other shmucks out there who we have to shout Jesus cliches at now to get them to convert. It's all about knowing the right stuff in order to make God like you more. Law over love. Sure, there's love, too, but it's a vague concept very rarely expounded upon... we have a whole bunch of mushy loev for God because God is really, really, neat, and gee, God'll totally be there to make things not hurt any more when life gets hard, so God must love us a whole bunch in order to do that! We're totally out of touch with what love really means, so we reduce it to something that we can earn as long as we follow all the rules and basically behave like nice lapdogs. (I'm not advocating breaking the rules, at least not when they're actually founded upon Biblical principles, I'm just saying that this isn't what makes God love us, and God's love for us often doesn't mean protection from pain.)

[murlough23]

OK, I'm listening to the album now, though it's encoded at a crappy bitrate, so I can't judge production (and to a lesser extent, musicianship) based on that.

But I have to say that I actually kind of liked the first track. We'll see how the rest goes.

NP: "Shut Me Out", Kutless

[Brenden]

But I have to say that I actually kind of liked the first track. We'll see how the rest goes.

I had the same reaction, I was pleasently suprised there.

The rest hasn't been making any impression on me, aside from Smile, whch I haven't really listened to the lyrics closely yet.

[murlough23]

The rest hasn't been making any impression on me, aside from Smile, whch I haven't really listened to the lyrics closely yet.

"Smile" sucks. I was pissed that I had to listen to it twice. (A few of the acoustic bonus tracks were nice, but there was really no need for an acoustic take on an already rather low-key and dull song). I'm sure there are plenty of nice Satanists out there who smile and strike up conversations with people on airplanes. Yeah, being nice to people works as a conversation starter, but for crying out loud, what sets Christians apart should be something a lot more profound than just our ability to be "nice".

This record feels like it has some solid rock songs (musically, anwyay) at the front and back, and a whole lot of the usual mush in the middle. The musicianship has improved on the rock songs (I think I actually noticed the drums for a change - I felt similarly about B429's latest album), but they still have way too many bland rock/AC hybrid songs.

[Brenden]

"Smile" sucks. I was pissed that I had to listen to it twice. (A few of the acoustic bonus tracks were nice, but there was really no need for an acoustic take on an already rather low-key and dull song). I'm sure there are plenty of nice Satanists out there who smile and strike up conversations with people on airplanes. Yeah, being nice to people works as a conversation starter, but for crying out loud, what sets Christians apart should be something a lot more profound than just our ability to be "nice".

This record feels like it has some solid rock songs (musically, anwyay) at the front and back, and a whole lot of the usual mush in the middle. The musicianship has improved on the rock songs (I think I actually noticed the drums for a change - I felt similarly about B429's latest album), but they still have way too many bland rock/AC hybrid songs.

Like I said, I hadn't listened to the lyrics that closely, what I heard did sound pretty lame.

I've been having the album in the background mostly, I dread paying close attention.

[murlough23]

Like I said, I hadn't listened to the lyrics that closely, what I heard did sound pretty lame.

What's even lamer is the fact that CT's review of the album compared that song to Jars of Clay.

[Brenden]

What's even lamer is the fact that CT's review of the album compared that song to Jars of Clay.

Great mother of Charlie Sheen! That's pathetic! Even Jars at their weakest write better than that!

[murlough23]

Great mother of Charlie Sheen! That's pathetic! Even Jars at their weakest write better than that!

Well, to be fair, they specifically compared the vocals. Still, it's way off the mark. Dan Haseltine doesn't sound a thing like Jon Micah Sumrall, either in the tone of his voice or his delivery (Dan flows a little more poetically; Jon Micah tends to deliver a lot of his words in a very even, measured, brute force sort of way). Ever. And the lyrics, as you noted, don't do anything to help the comparison.

NP: "Window", Fiona Apple

[plumb_fan]

I bought the album today, and my initial impression is better than it has been for their previous albums.  The lyrical quality doesn't seem too diffrerent, but at least different subjects are being mentioned. Musically, I was told they sounded "tighter" on this album but I didn't hear it.  My biggest problem though is the album's pacing (something becoming all too common with T&N albums).  The whole back and forth between the rockers and ballads for the majority of the album is bad enough, not being able to hear any real difference between them makes it instantly boring (at least on Sea of Faces there was some variance in sound).  A simple change of song placement could've done wonders. All of that being said, there does seem to be some growth on the album.  I'm not hearing as many easy ryhmes or cliches.  I think, by their 5th album they might be a good band.

[dgp11776]

So, how do we interpret murlough's almost week-long silence?

A)  It is better than he thought, therefore less to ream.
B)  It is worse than he thought, and he's trying to keep a log of his thoughts for a review.
C)  He listened to something else instead.

[murlough23]

It's been five days, I've had a lot of different things to listen to, and I'll get around to it. Patience.

[murlough23]

I'll throw out a tidbit for you guys, since I know you're awaiting my full review with baited breath. I've moved beyond simply being annoyed with "Shut Me Out" - I am now officially offended by that song. While a great many CCM songs annoy me, there are few that actually manage to cross the line and offend me, so this is an accomplishment on Kutless's part.

Why am I offended? I think it's the "preaching in the streets" stuff that really gets to me, combined with the "brute force" mentality of the song, which basically states that a Christian should just be ornery and shout louder and louder until the detractors either start agreeing, or give up and walk away. This just smacks of so much pride that I don't even know where to begin. Do we have the right to proclaim our beliefs publicly? Certainly. Do we have the right to be proud to be Christians, and to believe this is a beneficial message for the rest of the world? Obviously. Should we write songs about "putting up with" the world, treating them like an annoyance to be shouted down? No. I think that does more harm than good, in terms of what that says about how Christ cares for those people. It also conveniently sidesteps the issue of us being sinners and needing to approach this message with humility. Do we actually try to talk to these people, who may have legitimate hurts and reasons for not understanding what Christianity is all about? Do we consider what it really means to love our enemies? Or do we just cart around our pickets signs and publicly demean them for not being holy enough to get it?

I've always had problems with street evangelism to total strangers in general - I just don't see why someone should be convinced one way or the other based on the words of a total stranger in passing and a cheesy pamphlet that gets handed out. However, I accept that this can raise awareness of a church or other ministry that is open to those people, so in that respect, it's not that much different than handing out flyers for a concert or trying to advertise something else in the streets. It annoys me, but maybe for some people it's effective. Still, a little tact is required, and to Kutless, that appears to be an entirely foreign concept.

There, chew on that one. I'm sure a few of you might have rebuttals.

NP: "Winds of Change", Kutless

[dgp11776]

*shrugs*  I guess I don't see why this album is so bad.  I'm thinking 3/5...I find I often agree with CT these days.  And, since I don't feel like going "Me vs. The Phorum," I'm done.

[Cindie in Texas]

Wow the sages on this loop really make me know psalms is right as well as proverbs. ..God certainly has made foolish the worldly wisdom of those that think they are something but are really nothing!  Id like to see you  experts in rock take jm's place ...the rest o fus would leave you high and dry..if you want worldly music go there none of us will miss you.... if you cant dig the message Shut Me Out which 1/2 of you are what that song is about then you dont get NOTHING man....  For me and My house we will buy kutless and jam out to them as long as they are faithful to Christ...most of you on this loop will completey not get that Im sure. But Id say if thats true then man there's a hundred sold out bands out there pick one of them....Kutless can do w/out faithful fans like you guys...  

[Cindie in Texas]

states that a Christian should just be ornery and shout louder and louder until the detractors either start agreeing, or give up and walk away.This just smacks of so much pride that I don't even know where to begin. Do we have the right to proclaim our beliefs publicly? Certainly. Do we have the right to be proud to be Christians, and to believe this is a beneficial message for the rest of the world? Obviously. Should we write songs about "putting up with" the world, treating them like an annoyance to be shouted down? No.[/size][/font]

What about Shut me out says this?  When you say the MESSAGE is beneficial what exactly does that mean? I think the whole point is not that we can proclaim it publicly the fact is the public has bent over backwards to throw out the message all together.... Jesus can 't not even be celebrated in most Cities and City Halls on the National Holiday of Christmas..is that being shut out??? We have Earth day which has pagan origins of worshipping a created thing and yet your issue is w/ Kutless???... Can you tell me why every writer in the New Testament was persecuted in the Greek world at the time of Christ?? Isnt it strange the news today reports a man in Afganistan who has simply become a Christian and many others around the world todaywill be killed by the name of CHRIST and you saying your a christian are really "annoyed" at Kutless because their message is w/ the pressure they received DAILY  like " Man we love your sound could you leave that Jesus Preachy stuff behind" and they say no... Do you HAVE to listen to Kutless...Do they not have a RIGHT to share what they know will cure little pathetic American empty and meaningless hearts?

[Aaron]

Well go ahead and be like the majority of musically ignorant Christians who will buy anything that is shoved in their faces just because it talks about Jesus.  Most people don't really have issues with the lyrics of Kutless.  It's the lack of musical creativity, originality, and intelligence.  You should read everything before you go making discombobulated posts because someone said something that stretched your safe protective Christian bubble.

[Cindie in Texas]

Well go ahead and be like the majority of musically ignorant Christians who will buy anything that is shoved in their faces just because it talks about Jesus.  Most people don't really have issues with the lyrics of Kutless.  It's the lack of musical creativity, originality, and intelligence.  You should read everything before you go making discombobulated posts because someone said something that stretched your safe protective Christian bubble.

Wanderer Id like to personal message you on ms messenger..how about it...  
 

[Cindie in Texas]

Well go ahead and be like the majority of musically ignorant Christians who will buy anything that is shoved in their faces just because it talks about Jesus.  Most people don't really have issues with the lyrics of Kutless.  It's the lack of musical creativity, originality, and intelligence.  You should read everything before you go making discombobulated posts because someone said something that stretched your safe protective Christian bubble.

Thats cute Wanderer I dont have a safe protected bubble... I have a past that would blow your mind . I know the truth because the truth has set me free and its not my parents Religion its a real thing ..you know wanderer as a Christian Im less concerned about the worldly aspects of musical sound and hey considering Ozzy used to be my standard its not like I have that much taste to begin w/ But here is what gets me as a Christian...

"NOt every person who calls them selves a Christian those that say to me "Jesus "..will enter the kingdom of heaven..but the one who does the will of my Father...who is in heaven..on that day many will say to me "Man I was a Christian I always went to church , I listened to Christian music...and did mighty outreaches in your name.." and then I will say "I never knew you... We never had a relationship"... depart from me you lover of the world who does what the world does..." Matthew 7:21

Hey wanderer what do you think your conscience is there for?? why do you feel bad when you do things you know intuitively that you should not do??

[Cindie in Texas]

[Josh Powell]

Your posts are very hard to read. More commas, less ellipsises (spelling?).

We know what intuition means. I don't see how that relates to Kutless, though.

[I'm not concerned with the] worldly aspects of music, [such as how it] sounds.

So.. Christians should just settle for second-rate music that blatantly copies other bands, just because the lyrics talk about God? If that's all we can do for our God and Savior, we truly are pathetic. If we have God behind us, shouldn't our music just absolutely blow away (musically) secular music? Yes. Does it? No. (With some exceptions. Christian metal, for example. There are a lot of great Christian metal bands that are becoming very popular in the mainstream. Metal is my thing, but I can appreciate their talent.)


Josh

[Cindie in Texas]

Your posts are very hard to read. More commas, less ellipsises (spelling?).

We know what intuition means. I don't see how that relates to Kutless, though.



So.. Christians should just settle for second-rate music that blatantly copies other bands, just because the lyrics talk about God? If that's all we can do for our God and Savior, we truly are pathetic. If we have God behind us, shouldn't our music just absolutely blow away (musically) secular music? Yes. Does it? No. (With some exceptions. Christian metal, for example. There are a lot of great Christian metal bands that are becoming very popular in the mainstream. Metal is my thing, but I can appreciate their talent.)


Josh

Josh do you play music? If you do and I do...you know that all music is inspired some where...also metal is my thing so Im hoping you can you name a band that hasnt gottne inspiration from anyone else. Id frankly prefer secular since by virture Christian is meant Little Christ in the Greek it clearly shows its promoting a person secular isnt..but since you hold this standard to christians Id like to examine your standard on the secular realm to see if your consistent... sorry if you get stumbled on punctuation...

[Cindie in Texas]

Your posts are very hard to read. More commas, less ellipsises (spelling?).

We know what intuition means. I don't see how that relates to Kutless, though.



So.. Christians should just settle for second-rate music that blatantly copies other bands, just because the lyrics talk about God? If that's all we can do for our God and Savior, we truly are pathetic. If we have God behind us, shouldn't our music just absolutely blow away (musically) secular music? Yes. Does it? No. (With some exceptions. Christian metal, for example. There are a lot of great Christian metal bands that are becoming very popular in the mainstream. Metal is my thing, but I can appreciate their talent.)


Josh

Josh Id also like to see where Kutless has one ever claimed to have a passion to meet the world realm. I see where they could and can and have been told over and over again if they would minimize their witness then they would be more popular. The are real genuine not doing Christian to get a foot in the door guys and I respect them far more than the lesser bands that use Christian children who have a faith that is based on what they grew up w/ more than what they know to be true....

On those Christian bands you speak of why are they popular w/ the world?? here is what Jesus says do you think Jesus is misguided here?

Joh 15:19  If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Joh 15:18  "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.  (context telling them what will happen when Acts comes about)

Joh 7:7  The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.

Jo 2:15  Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  

[Cindie in Texas]

Your posts are very hard to read. More commas, less ellipsises (spelling?).

We know what intuition means. I don't see how that relates to Kutless, though.



So.. Christians should just settle for second-rate music that blatantly copies other bands, just because the lyrics talk about God? If that's all we can do for our God and Savior, we truly are pathetic. If we have God behind us, shouldn't our music just absolutely blow away (musically) secular music? Yes. Does it? No. (With some exceptions. Christian metal, for example. There are a lot of great Christian metal bands that are becoming very popular in the mainstream. Metal is my thing, but I can appreciate their talent.)


Josh

Josh your site shows me your pretty smart boy. The question on conscience goes to man's deepest yearning for understanding who he is. When Wanderer and the other guy makes a comment about how telling the Truth in Kutlesses Shut me up  is good but not good enough to bank all you are on it Id like to examine where your basis for anything you believe in Truth comes from. The natural starting point is conscience since thats exactly what God has put in every mans heart that says not only is He there but that there is a seeking and a truth to be found. I categorically reject the fact that we are all animals because evolution can not explain conscience..all men deal w/ it. If some men have found the correct way to deal w/ it I want to see those who are barking against it how they deal w/ it. So its a philosophical questiont hat will show me how much skin youve put into those thoughts.... is that a wrong thing to ask?? Seems like Kutless has put the skin there...so thats the tie Kutless isnt about music they are about a man...the man when you search was real and has the answers..my question to you is how do you answer these questions? the primary one right now is conscience...why do you have it and hwere does it come from?

[ajyouthguy]

i can see this is gonna go far...

[Josh Powell]

[Cindie in Texas]

[Cindie in Texas]

[bloop]

^Please reword cohesively, if those thoughts were worth the effort.

[Josh Powell]

Plus must be nice Josh you were in that sinister little room as Kutless was going through tons and tons of records....muuuhhaaaa mmuuhhhhaa says Kutlesss... We will just take this sound and wow make that riff...

As I've said so many times, its not their intentions I'm doubting. Sure, they probably aren't intentionally copying other band's music, but they're obviously not coming up with their own from scratch. How come a lot of other rock bands have no problems with making their own original sound? Kutless may not be trying to copy others, but they're not trying (very hard) to make an original sound for themself.)

Why is Creed not copying pearl jam and soundgarden and why is kutless no original but Creed is??

I never said Creed was original

But to accuse someone of what your doing is completely arrogant and wrong and if your a Christian Id say you should read what Paul says in 1 Corinthians about how the Lord feels about you judging another ministry that He himself has put on this earth...none of us if we truly do love Jesus would want to do that.

Grr. I'M NOT JUDGING THEIR 'MINISTRY'.. as I've said sooooo many times, I don't doubt their motives. Its their music I don't like.

... speaks of Christians that deny Him and he will deny them is his promise

Soo.. just because I don't like certain Christian bands, I'm denying Christ?

If you like Kutless's music thats fine with me. I don't, and unless their future albums are drastically different I probably never will. You're never going to convince me that they have an original sound, so arguing about that is pointless

Josh

(Side note, Spell Check tried to fix Kutless to be Gutless. Heh.)

[bloop]

If we have God behind us, shouldn't our music just absolutely blow away (musically) secular music?

I'm not so sure this is even true.  I just think that Christians should make music that has their own unique signature, and mainstream artists should as well.  I mean, it's not like God's going do the compositions for a Christian.  He'll utilize the talent that they have - if they have as much as a particular mainstream artist, approximately as much will be perceived by the listening audience.  

Anyway, my problem with any artist is not that they aren't better than anyone else in particular, but that they aren't meeting a more generalized kind of minimum requirement that, I admit, is my own but I find is generally fair to apply to a person who is supposed to be doing music as their job.

[Cindie in Texas]

^Please reword cohesively, if those thoughts were worth the effort.

Big ideas Bloop I know. ESp when I read your past posts ...

Hypocracy?
Criticism when your not a musician, and having no clue about writing your own riffs?
Having an issue w/ Christian lyrics that by virtue of the term "christian" they are based on hmmm maybe "Christ"?
Conscience and why your here relating to hOw it ties into what Kutless is saying...and why they themselves speak about why Shut you out was written...

Why in the loop we have to criticize them when one side says they believe what they say too much and its in your face and they hate that...which is why they wrote what they did and it is actually about people like that ..

Its a joke.


Then we don't like them because they sound like Tom's band down the street those darn power chords!

... I mean how lame! Don't they have a right to do what ever they want w/ their sound..or do we all need to sit in a nice tidy box and stay that way...Life isnt that way..why would we expect it to be?

 Id be glad to elaborate and labor over them.....they do relate but for some people it takes a little longer.  
 

[Cindie in Texas]

As I've said so many times, its not their intentions I'm doubting. Sure, they probably aren't intentionally copying other band's music, but they're obviously not coming up with their own from scratch. How come a lot of other rock bands have no problems with making their own original sound? Kutless may not be trying to copy others, but they're not trying (very hard) to make an original sound for themself.)



I never said Creed was original



Grr. I'M NOT JUDGING THEIR 'MINISTRY'.. as I've said sooooo many times, I don't doubt their motives. Its their music I don't like.



Soo.. just because I don't like certain Christian bands, I'm denying Christ?

If you like Kutless's music thats fine with me. I don't, and unless their future albums are drastically different I probably never will. You're never going to convince me that they have an original sound, so arguing about that is pointless

Josh

(Side note, Spell Check tried to fix Kutless to be Gutless. Heh.)

Inspiration isn't the problem -- copying is. Listen to Creed, listen to Kutless

OH IM SORRY JOSH ... I would think your above statement means

Cindie there is such a difference between Kutless and Creed..Listen to Creed... and since your earlier post is originality I normally would think if your debating your point you would actually use a band to illustrate your point... is that off the mark to assume when you discuss something?

And yes Ill say there is a big difference Creed says they are embarrassed at their earlier music about Christ and the only Book that stands out as original int he history of the world and they categorically deny they are Christians... I have no respect for any body who knows truly who Christ is....in reading true character in history Id have to say some weeners playing a guitar over a man who believes what he says and is willing do die for truth is heads and tails different...

ie why Kutless as Christians are worhty of respect because they care what JEsus thinks and not what the world thinks...that alone makes them completely original in my book

but again we are debating 2 things and for you to praise Creed when they sound just like pearl jam and soundgarden and put down Kutless shows your being a hypocrite here. And thats my point Im one too we all are just some of us realize it and others just go around complaining