Id like to see you experts in rock take jm's place...the rest o fus would leave you high and dry..if you want worldly music go there none of us will miss you....
Ah, there it is. Kutless Fan Fallacy #1. This is always what these arguments end up with. "I'd like to see you make better music." News flash, you don't have to be able to do something yourself in order to know when it isn't being done well. If you go to a restaurant and your food tastes bad (and it's a dish you've had elsewhere and enjoyed), and you complain about it, do you expect the waiter to say, "Are you a chef? Yeah, I didn't think so. So shut up." But that basically what you're telling us.
In the interest of full disclosure, I do play guitar, and I do write songs from time to time. I'm not a professional musician by a long shot, and I don't really want to be. The guitarists in Kutless are more technically proficient than me, in terms of their playing and their rhythm being fairly clean (I'm still a bit sloppy). But their skills, as displayed on record, tend to remain fairly basic, and the riffs and other musical ideas are often copped from other bands. It may take more talent than I personally have, but it still doesn't take that much talent overall. Certainly not the level of talent that one should be signed to a record deal for having.
As for songwriting... I'm almost certain that my songwriting wouldn't have the same mass appeal than Jon Micah's does. That's fine. I'd rather be true to what's on my heart to write about, instead of turning out cliches to appeal to the lowest common denominator. At least when a person reads some of my lyrics, they're likely to come across a thought or emotion expressed in a way that they couldn't have predicted.
For me and My house we will buy kutless and jam out to them as long as they are faithful to Christ...most of you on this loop will completey not get that Im sure.
There's another classic rebuttal... faux-quoting of Scripture with a holier-than-thou attitude attached to it to make us sound like pagan losers. You're batting a thousand, welcome aboard!
What about Shut me out says this? When you say the MESSAGE is beneficial what exactly does that mean?
The Gospel message, of course. The world
does need to hear it. What I question is the methods we use to get people to hear it, which more often than not just annoy them and drive them further away.
Now I realize that at some gut level, the Gospel itself is offensive. There's no getting around the fact that it goes against human instinct to say, "I am no good on my own and need a graceful God to forgive me for my sins." That's a difficult message to pass along, no matter how you go about it. But if we do it with macho pride (trying to be the one who wins the shouting match, basically) instead of the humble realization that
we are just like them, then I think the world has every right to portray us as they do, as a bunch of self-righteous idiots.
Judging by your posts so far, you're not doing much to help that reputation, by the way.
I think the whole point is not that we can proclaim it publicly the fact is the public has bent over backwards to throw out the message all together.... Jesus can 't not even be celebrated in most Cities and City Halls on the National Holiday of Christmas..is that being shut out???
Ah, yes, the classic "us vs. them" mentality. Always a good way to get the world to listen.
Look here, Miss "I live in the Bible Belt", I live in one of the more notoriously liberal states in the country (California), and I'm noticing no such problem. Is the whole corporate, PC, "you can't say Merry Christmas" thing annoying? Certainly. It's gone too far. But you also can't say "Happy Kwanzaa" or whatever under that same rule. So this is not an attack specifically on Christians; it's just overall idiocy that offends pretty much everybody except for maybe atheists and agnostics. And there's a difference between what you as an individual can do and say on your own time and property, rather than what a company or the government can say.
And by the way, "can't not" is a double negative. I've noticed that a lot of Kutless fans have really crappy English. Can't blame them, when the band frequently uses "your" instead of "you're" in their lyric sheets.
Can you tell me why every writer in the New Testament was persecuted in the Greek world at the time of Christ??
Because Christ was offensive, both to Jews (because He claimed He was the Messiah) and Gentiles (because He triggered an infectious religious movement that told the Romans and Greeks, among many others, that God was about grace, not a pantheon of multiple gods, and not a political ruler such as Caesar being put on a pedestal as God). People were martyred and stuff in those days; comparing that to America now, I'd hardly call what we deal with persecution.
Honestly, most of the flak we get from non-Christians these days is our own fault, for being loud-mouthed idiots. I'm more concerned with undoing that damage than I am with returning their petty shouting in kind.
Isnt it strange the news today reports a man in Afganistan who has simply become a Christian and many others around the world todaywill be killed by the name of CHRIST
I thought they let that guy go, unless you're talking about another guy.
Anyway, Christianity is kind of synonymous with American capitalism and greed to most of the Muslim world today. They're persecuting Christians less because of Jesus, and more because it's a "western" religion and they loathe all that the Western world stands for. That's not to say that they're right in doing so - far from it - but I'm certain that they have an egregious misunderstanding of what Christianity is really all about.
Man we love your sound could you leave that Jesus Preachy stuff behind" and they say no...
What, are they getting offers from mainstream labels or something? First I've heard of such a thing. Sounds to me like the CCM market is perfectly happy with them where they are.
Do you HAVE to listen to Kutless...
In all honesty, I think it wouldn't be fair of me to just write them off and assume they'll never improve. As down as I am on several of their songs, I do think they've improved marginally on this album, and in the interest of fairness, I do want to point that out.
Do they not have a RIGHT to share what they know will cure little pathetic American empty and meaningless hearts?
You're setting up a strawman here to make me look like the bad guy. OF COURSE they have a right to share the Gospel. Nobody's trying to take that away from them. What concerns me is not what they share, but how they share it. If the message is God's love for the people of this world, then go out and love those people instead of yelling at them about how loud and hurtful and annoying they are. We're just beggars who happen to know where to tell the other beggars where they can get some bread. We did nothing out of our own power to earn our salvation; let's stop being so arrogant about it when we address the rest of the world.
"NOt every person who calls them selves a Christian those that say to me "Jesus "..will enter the kingdom of heaven..but the one who does the will of my Father...who is in heaven..on that day many will say to me "Man I was a Christian I always went to church , I listened to Christian music...and did mighty outreaches in your name.." and then I will say "I never knew you... We never had a relationship"... depart from me you lover of the world who does what the world does..." Matthew 7:21
There's another cheapshot way to look like the argument has been thrown in your favor... just accuse the other person of not really being a Christian. Honestly, I think when we get to Heaven, we'll be pretty surprised at some of the scum-sucking lowlifes that actually made it in, and the pious religious types who didn't. Then maybe we'll fully realize the truth, "Oh, yeah. I was one of those scum-sucking lowlifes, too."
In the meantime, it's best to be humble about what we couldn't have possibly rescued ourselves from (you, with your apparent testimony of a sordid past, should realize this sooner than everyone - if you were truly set free by grace and not works, you'd take a much more humble tone when trying to tell us what's what) and realize that all that sets us apart from the rest of the world is God's grace. That's it. We're just as bad as the rest of 'em. We do make attempts to behave better, but that doesn't give us the right to look around and point out who's going to heaven and who ain't. We honestly don't know those people's hearts. I don't know your heart, or the Wanderer's heart, or the hearts of the members of Kutless, or the hearts of kids who committed to Christ at Kutless concerts, so while I can certainly critique things said by any of those people, I can't say any of them are not really saved or anything like that.
The are real genuine not doing Christian to get a foot in the door guys and I respect them far more than the lesser bands that use Christian children who have a faith that is based on what they grew up w/ more than what they know to be true....
How do you know that? Do you know any of these people personally, or is it just your "intuition" talking again? What makes your intuition any better than mine, anyway? (Well, other than the fact that you're a real Christian and I'm apparently not.)
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Joh 15:18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. (context telling them what will happen when Acts comes about)
Joh 7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.
Jo 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
I don't think Jesus is misguided there, but I think your interpretation is a bit misguided. Jesus is telling us not to be surprised when the world hates us; that lines up with what I said earlier about the Gospel being offensive. But there's a difference between that and doing things that are purposefully hostile to the world. Jesus also said to turn the other cheek; I often don't see that from American Christians who feel discriminated against or "persecuted" (bunch of whiners, they don't even know the meaning of the word). Instead, I see all-out declarations of war, people forgetting that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but... well, you know how the rest of that stuff goes, you're Miss Bible Scholar, after all. We end up declaring war against
people, even if it's just a word war... it gets vicious. And that stuff works its way into our sermons, books, music, etc. It's toxic. It makes us feel like we're better than them, when in reality, those people are captives of the same Satanic lies that we still struggle to be totally free from (i.e. sin). Why are we treating them like that? Just cause they shout at us and call us names, does that make us morally justified for doing the same?
Josh your site shows me your pretty smart boy.
And your mangled grammar shows me otherwise about you.
The question on conscience goes to man's deepest yearning for understanding who he is. When Wanderer and the other guy makes a comment about how telling the Truth in Kutlesses Shut me up is good but not good enough to bank all you are on it Id like to examine where your basis for anything you believe in Truth comes from. The natural starting point is conscience since thats exactly what God has put in every mans heart that says not only is He there but that there is a seeking and a truth to be found. I categorically reject the fact that we are all animals because evolution can not explain conscience..all men deal w/ it. If some men have found the correct way to deal w/ it I want to see those who are barking against it how they deal w/ it. So its a philosophical questiont hat will show me how much skin youve put into those thoughts.... is that a wrong thing to ask?? Seems like Kutless has put the skin there...so thats the tie Kutless isnt about music they are about a man...the man when you search was real and has the answers..my question to you is how do you answer these questions? the primary one right now is conscience...why do you have it and hwere does it come from?
Um... OK...
Could you run that by me again, and this time, in English, please?
You know the Bible says that we should not hold our own opinions so high because God who is real will humble us and show our own wisdom to not be real based..... as a matter of fact we often get humbled because we all learn that though we hate hypocrates that we ourselves are the greatest of hypocrates.
That's "hypocrites".
So, what makes your opinion any better than ours, then? When did God swoop down and whisper the exact truth on this topic into your ear, and what caused me to miss that day in Sunday School?
So why is it that Creed sounds like Pearl Jam?? or Soundgarden?? show me your not a hypocrate and tell me how that standard others have placed on Creed are not the same you are placing on Kutless???
I don't think any of us ever claimed that Creed was the best band ever. I like some of their stuff, but I've criticized them for a generic sound, too (and vocally, I'd take Jon Micah over Scott Stapp's latest project any day). The reason why Kutless gets slammed for sounding like Creed is actually partially
because Creed was already a retread of a sound we'd heard to death. If you make a Xerox copy of a Xerox copy, and then another Xerox copy of that, etc., you're going to lose quality every time. So every new band that imitates one of the imitators, unless they have something else surprising up their sleeves, will be even worse, musically speaking.
I do try to hold all bands to that standard of being
influenced without doing too much imitating. However, when they're imitating other imitators, I think it's justifiable that they get even harsher criticism for it. Another factor is imitation of something that is currently trendy, as opposed to imitating something that's older and/or has gone out of style. That indicates to me that the artist picked up the style because they liked it, rather than co-opting the sound because it would make them popular (not always true, but often likely).
Plus must be nice Josh you were in that sinister little room as Kutless was going through tons and tons of records....muuuhhaaaa mmuuhhhhaa says Kutlesss... We will just take this sound and wow make that riff...
I'm not so sure it was even a conscious thing. They probably just played what sounded cool to them because they didn't know how to come up with anything else. Most young bands do that, actually. People like to imitate their musical heroes, it's just that normally, as they grow as artists, they leave that behind in favor of sounding more distinctive - even if they're not totally original, they've at least picked up a wider range of influences. And I guess nobody is
totally original anyway.
Again, in the interest of fairness, I'm not sure why we're spending so much time on the Creed thing anyway, I don't really think they sound like Creed any more. They've more or less crossed over into a generic, bland, radio-rock sound that I can't pin to any specific band because it's more or less just plain vanilla.
any player knows that you only have a certain amount of chords man riffs sound alike in a limited world I think your being a hypocrate and would like to see rather than all these complainers someone who has some sort of objective science to their opinions.... that is unless we all get our opinions from others and dont look for truth in our own lives. I notice the greatest critics NEVER hold themselves to their own standards ..
Those critics are all still hearing
something on
somebody's album that they haven't heard a million times before, aren't they? How are they being hypocrites there?
But to accuse someone of what your doing is completely arrogant and wrong and if your a christian Id say you should read what Paul says in 1 Corinithians about how the Lord feels about you judging another ministry that He himself has put on this earth...none of us if we truly do love Jesus would want to do that. Sincerely.
You sure you've got that interpretation right? How about the TV ministries of Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart in the 80's? How about extremely liberal Episocpal churches that are ordaining gay and lesbian clergy? (I actually haven't made up my mind how I feel about that one yet, but since you're a reactionary Republichristian from the Bible Belt, I'm almost certain you'd denounce it.) How about the Crusades?
You can't judge the
people, sure. That's God's job. But we
have to be able to judge and discern whether the actions taken by the people are good and right things to do; if not, we will follow bad examples and end up just like the most notoriously bad examples of Christianity in the world that have driven so many people away. Kutless' problems are nowhere near as extreme as any of the things I mentioned... but they're still problems, and I feel that if I don't point out what isn't sitting right with me, others may follow their example and cause further problems.
Come on now. You can't say that you've never judged a ministry.
personally if Tonight was all kutless put on a cd forever Id be down w/ it I love the riff there...but Im a female and females can listen to the same song over and over..we are weird that way...
Some males are also that idiotic. A lot of 'em, actually. And some females aren't. I don't think it has a damn thing to do with you being a woman, personally. I think it has to do with wanting nothing but baby food, what you're already familiar and comfortable with. That's the problem with most of the Church today. Just tell me what I already know; that conviction stuff is for those other morons who haven't already received the epiphany that I have, and I don't need to broaden my horizons, dangit!
But the previous post started the tirade about Street preaching! now that steps out of the musical realm and why Im dealing w/ it. Its a sad thing that people call themselves christians and have no idea of what that means and why that verse about what Jesus saays to many Christians is important for all of us ...will he say He never knew us...in John chapter 3 when he says you MUST be born again or you can not see heaven tells us some important things to ponder!
Again, you're trying to make it out like we have a problem with the Gospel being proclaimed to non-Christians. I take no issue with this; I merely state that going out into the streets and shouting it at random people probably isn't the most helpful way of getting the message out there. (Especially with some of the atrocious tracts we hand out, which are loved and cherished by the world for little other than their kitsch value.)
When one does you WILL see Acts in a regenerated life! its that simples yes if you see christians being hard core world and worldly money sex what ever they arent regenerated! I hear that all the time and its christians like you guys who really should be stronger in what the Bible says. I would not allow anyone to go off on that street preaching when ACTS is all about that. How can any teenager not respect Acts in our lukewarm materialistic society?
One day you guys will grow up... and if Christ isnt real If you dont know him to tell others because you have seen that reality of truth and that hell is really real and the Bible is all it says to be (that is apart of that search I told you about) then your a laodicean... thats not cool! Either be real or dont be it but know Jesus is who He said He was and He is completely serious when He speaks of Christians that deny Him and he will deny them is his promise. The greek of deny there is "not mention" not a full out denial... in which hey Josh if we cant live for jesus now how are we if we were to be like first century christians in Acts and die for it. You never will unless it becomes real to you! and He can because how awesome He is real there really is a point to life!
You go to one of those fire and brimstone type churches, don't you?
Yeah, hell is real. No doubt about that. And lots of people will end up there. Maybe fewer would choose that path if we were a little more in tune to how we could share the Gospel in times and places where people would be receptive to it, rather than just beating them over the heads with religious platitudes and protest signs and bumper sticker catch phrases that only provoke them to respond viciously and violently. We reap what we sow.
Hypocracy?
Criticism when your not a musician, and having no clue about writing your own riffs?
HYPOCRISY. Spell it out with me. H-Y-P-O-C-R--I-S-Y.
And for the last bloody time, "your" means "belonging to you". "You're" means "you are". KNOW THE DANG DIFFERENCE.
In any event, I can't necessarily write original riffs, but I can recognize when I'm hearing something I haven't heard a million times before. I don't think that's such a unique skill, either.
And yes Ill say there is a big difference Creed says they are embarrassed at their earlier music about Christ and the only Book that stands out as original int he history of the world and they categorically deny they are Christians...
The truth of the matter is that we don't know for sure whether any of the guys other than Scott Stapp were Christians. The rest of the band hasn't said anything either way. Scott Stapp has very publicly come out and said that he's a Christian. (I realize that his actions are extremely unbecoming of a Christian much of the time, and I don't mean to excuse any of those actions, but to some degree, all of us who publicly say that we are Christians will fall flat on our faces in front of non-believers at one point or another, so that in and of itself doesn't make his statement of belief a lie.) He claims that he never came out and directly said so during his tenure with Creed because people always asked whether the
band was Christian, and their intent was not specifically to call it a "Christian band"... you can take issue with that if you want (it
did seem a bit petty to dodge it in that manner), but he's stated more recently that he is a Christian; I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt there.
Try not to argue based on yesterday's news; it makes you look even sillier than you already do.
ie why Kutless as Christians are worhty of respect because they care what JEsus thinks and not what the world thinks...that alone makes them completely original in my book
Eh. Plenty of people care what Jesus thinks, and yet still fail to grasp the concept that God is
creative. They mean well, but people like to pick and choose the aspects of God that are comfortable to them, and discard the rest. It's much easier to just follow an evangelism formula and get high numbers to convert on the basis of an emotional high, than it is to actually put your heart
and mind into proclaiming your personal experience of who God is to you, in an artistic way fitting for a medium such as music which is, by definition, an art form. It's easier to just throw out catch phrases, tell Christians what they already know, and make God sound like a big cosmic boyfriend in the sky to those who don't already know Him.
I mean, at the very least, if you have no interest in creativity and artistry, then just bypass this silly music thing and just become a speaker. Who needs instruments and notes and chords, and things that you have to put together in such a way as to aesthetically please the ear, when all you really care about is getting a message out there? Why not just
talk?
Oh, right. People can't make as much money that way.
If you're going to continue this discussion, you need to take a breath, check your blood pressure, maybe step away for a few hours and collect your thoughts (and run them through a grammar checker in Microsft Word or something!), and actually address what we really are saying here, rather than setting up strawman arguments that are gross generalizations of the statements we're actually making. You're obviously hell-bent on having a fight, but come on, at least fight fair here. You're arguing with spectres at this point.
