what are you listening to?

[murlough23]

Hmm - I still think the club music they're dismissing is more in line with 50 cent than Linkin Park, but I could be wrong.

Doesn't matter. Both are valid styles, even if content-wise I won't touch 50 Cent.

Again, though, I don't even like hearing about such things in an intelligent critique in my music.  Do what you do well if you want to convince me that I shouldn't bother with those other guys.

I'm fine with it as a thesis for why you're making your album. But then follow up the thesis with a little proof - time spent making the actual good music, rather than just constantly referencing how you're gonna make the good music to educate us all.

Besides that, I would think that such a message would be hypocritical on that message.  It's not like it's the ultimate rap-purist album.

They do seem to be willing to try unique things in terms of the rhythm and backing music, but they definitely prioritize having ample space to say a lot through their raps above having prominent chorus hooks and so forth. And there's nothing wrong with that approach, but they do have to recognize that it's a less radio-friendly approach.

NP: "Beware! Criminal", Incubus

[bloop]

Doesn't matter. Both are valid styles, even if content-wise I won't touch 50 Cent.

Again, I'm not sure the song is critiquing the style so much as the content - kind of like much of the critique of glam rock in the 80s was about the more superficial things those bands were about, with some critique of the overly showy and theatrical musicianship.

I'm fine with it as a thesis for why you're making your album. But then follow up the thesis with a little proof - time spent making the actual good music, rather than just constantly referencing how you're gonna make the good music to educate us all.

Well, then, job done.  The music itself is solid.

[murlough23]

Well, then, job done.  The music itself is solid.

Well, what I was talking about includes the lyrics, too (I meant "music" as the entire package; my word choice was admittedly ambiguous). You don't like the smowing off and braggadocio and other rap cliches? Then if you're claiming to make music that's better than things, then write about something other than about how you're better than these things.

It would be like if I wrote a book where every chapter was dedicated to explaining why my book was better than the Harry Potter series.

NP: "Wishing Wells", Ron Sexsmith

[bloop]

I'm agreeing with you on this point, murlough, but just remember that it's only one song.

[murlough23]

I'm agreeing with you on this point, murlough, but just remember that it's only one song.

A lot of the album seemed to be focused on how good their music was, though.

NP: "Divine Invitation", Something Like Silas

[bloop]

That wasn't my impression of it, but maybe someone who listened a little more obsessively (looking in your direction, dgp) would be able to illuminate all of this a little better.

[Nathan]

Speaker for the Dead -- Orson Scott Card, Audiobook.

[Aaron]

Fleming & John - "The Way We Are"

[dgp11776]

The new Explosions In the Sky album All of a Sudden I Miss Everyone leaked.  Think Sigur Ros without words.  I love it. 

[murlough23]

That wasn't my impression of it, but maybe someone who listened a little more obsessively (looking in your direction, dgp) would be able to illuminate all of this a little better.

He's responded in this thread since we had this discussion, but not specifically to this. I know he's got to have an opinion.

[dgp11776]

He's responded in this thread since we had this discussion, but not specifically to this. I know he's got to have an opinion.

Ah, I hadn't seen this.  When I see the two of you going back and forth, and I normally kind of tune out (sorry)!  Anyway, if there are any potential weakness on this album, this would be it.  However, it doesn't affect my enjoyment.  I would say that a couple of songs ("Glam Rap" and "Stand Back and Watch") heavily reference what you are talking about.  But I think that other songs ("Say So," "Loud" from the earlier release, and "Sound Off" come to mind) only mention this in passing.  Other songs ("I Is," "More," "Wicked Ways," "All Out," "Saturday Night Special," "Moment," and "When Heaven Scrapes the Pavement") don't really reference it all all.  A song like "Effortless" or "Dog Ear Page" could be construed as such, but I don't see them that way, especially the latter. 

I spoke with Listener when he was at my house on tour a year or so ago about all of this.  It is very frustrating to guys like this when they make superior music and the crapbaskets continue to outsell them exponentially.  I guess it is kind of like your feelings toward Kutless.  Part of the hip-hop community is the dis track, most of which is really in jest (especially with these guys).  They two dudes are family guys all the way, and are really humble in person.  The songs you are referring to are their way of saying, "there is more to hip-hop than you think."  Listener was talking to my sister after the concert at my house, and she was telling him "this isn't what I thought rap was."  Most people automatically associate hip-hop music with ho's, bitches, sex, violence, and drugs.  Imagine how frustrating it would be to have that automatically associated with you when you said "I'm a rapper."  Mars ILL, Listener, and others like them are really trying to change perceptions of what hip-hop can be.  I could go on longer, but I'm leaving here in about 5 minutes.  Hope it helped some.         

[murlough23]

Ah, I hadn't seen this.  When I see the two of you going back and forth, and I normally kind of tune out (sorry)!  Anyway, if there are any potential weakness on this album, this would be it.  However, it doesn't affect my enjoyment.  I would say that a couple of songs ("Glam Rap" and "Stand Back and Watch") heavily reference what you are talking about.  But I think that other songs ("Say So," "Loud" from the earlier release, and "Sound Off" come to mind) only mention this in passing.  Other songs ("I Is," "More," "Wicked Ways," "All Out," "Saturday Night Special," "Moment," and "When Heaven Scrapes the Pavement") don't really reference it all all.  A song like "Effortless" or "Dog Ear Page" could be construed as such, but I don't see them that way, especially the latter.

I certainly did notice that not every song was on this subject. I will need to listen again more carefully, but it did seem that there were more than just two songs that, even if they weren't directly about music, did seem to be mostly about how we're gonna do this great thing that is gonna educate you all. And I kept thinking, "So shut up and just do it, then."

I spoke with Listener when he was at my house on tour a year or so ago about all of this.  It is very frustrating to guys like this when they make superior music and the crapbaskets continue to outsell them exponentially.

And they have every right to be frustrated by it, if the issue is that these other artists are making really crappy music and/or have a bad message. Sometimes that is very true - I don't see as many intelligent, respectable rappers making headlines as the controversial, misogynistic, violent ones do. However, it felt like out of their frustration on this subject, they decided to diss all variants of rap and hip-hop that were more commercial, which includes artists who are less "pure" hip-hop and more of a hybrid thing that entertains crowds, and you know what, it's a different approach and there's nothing wrong with that. It sounded to me like they were dissing rap/rock artists simply for bringing in elements of rock. There were a lot of rock music references in "Glam Rap" and they sounded very derisive.

I guess it is kind of like your feelings toward Kutless.

Sure, but  don't diss them for playing a style that is popular; I diss them for doing it unoriginally and for sending out an extremely superficial bastardization of the Gospel message. And Mars Ill probably intends to make criticisms that are more along those lines, but I think they caught some artists in the crossfire who mean no harm.

Part of the hip-hop community is the dis track, most of which is really in jest (especially with these guys).

I guess my sarcasm detector was malfunctioning, then. I kind of think the "diss track" needs to be approached carefully by Christian rap artists, for the sake of not sounding too arrogant. If it's very clear that you're kidding, that's fine, but since it seemed like they were mixing a diss toward people who didn't need to really be dissed with some well-timed commentary on the corruption that frustrates them within the industry, it all sounded very serious to me.

They two dudes are family guys all the way, and are really humble in person.  The songs you are referring to are their way of saying, "there is more to hip-hop than you think."  Listener was talking to my sister after the concert at my house, and she was telling him "this isn't what I thought rap was."  Most people automatically associate hip-hop music with ho's, bitches, sex, violence, and drugs.  Imagine how frustrating it would be to have that automatically associated with you when you said "I'm a rapper."  Mars ILL, Listener, and others like them are really trying to change perceptions of what hip-hop can be.

I totally get that and I totally support it. But less telling and more showing, please.

NP: "Nothing's on the Radio", Macrosick

[Aaron]

Some songs by Norfolk & Western.  Fans of M. Ward, The Decemberists, and Camera Obscura would like this band.  It helps that members of the band currently play for or have played for M. Ward and The Decemberists.

[murlough23]

Red Umbrella's Wishing for Boardwalk. I've listened to this off and on since it was first recommended to me by a few folks at this board, and it's plenty catchy and bouncy, but I can't seem to get into it. It lacks that really attention-grabbing song or chorus that makes a bright spot on the album stand out. No matter how many times I listen, it all just blurs together. Really frustrating. I know some people felt that way about Mae's The Everglow, and I thought that album was awesome, so maybe I need to take this one on a road trip or something and see if my opinion changes.

NP: "Tonight", Red Umbrella

[Wildcatblue7]

A Perfect Circle--Thirteenth Step

I can't figure out why I didn't get into this earlier.  Maybe it's just hitting me in the right spot now.

[enemy anemone]

just discovered an mp3 that I apparently hadn't listened to before. it's a recording of Patty Griffin's "Every Little Bit" with the backing of a band. it was the stark, Patty-and-an-acoustic-guitar-only version of this song from her album Living With Ghosts that first grabbed me by the hair and dragged me into her music--on this recording it's fully fleshed out, a completely different incarnation of the creature that once again leaves me breathless.

[dgp11776]

Leaked version of Five Score and Seven Years Ago by Relient K.  I've listened to the full album 3-4 times now, and I can say that it is quite impressive.  The 11-minute album closer "Deathbed" is probably the best thing they've ever done by a long shot.  Who ever thought that guys that sang about Marilyn Manson and Charles in Charge could write a Sufjan Stevens type song?

[murlough23]

Leaked version of Five Score and Seven Years Ago by Relient K.  I've listened to the full album 3-4 times now, and I can say that it is quite impressive.  The 11-minute album closer "Deathbed" is probably the best thing they've ever done by a long shot.  Who ever thought that guys that sang about Marilyn Manson and Charles in Charge could write a Sufjan Stevens type song?

OK, where'd you get it and how can I get a copy?

NP: "Toxic (live)", Nickel Creek

[Aaron]

if Josh Powell surfaces sometime today, ask him. He got it right after it leaked.

[murlough23]

if Josh Powell surfaces sometime today, ask him. He got it right after it leaked.

Never mind; it's been taken care of.

[Josh Powell]

Leaked version of Five Score and Seven Years Ago by Relient K.  I've listened to the full album 3-4 times now, and I can say that it is quite impressive.  The 11-minute album closer "Deathbed" is probably the best thing they've ever done by a long shot.  Who ever thought that guys that sang about Marilyn Manson and Charles in Charge could write a Sufjan Stevens type song?

Yeah, I've been gone with my dad doing various work today... listened to the album once or twice, am really impressed. Best RK album by far.. it's great. Anyhow, for leaked and any other Christian albums.. check out http://tehorng.com/ I got it off ChristianTorrents, but that site usually has them close behind.

Anyhow, I picked up Disapear Here today in CD form, so I'm listening to that.

L.A. Symphony - Put Up Or Shut Up "Disappear Here"

[starhawk]

Sally Shapiro - Disco Romance

I've been on an electronic music kick lately...The Knife was dominating my player before this one.

[Brenden]

Leaked version of Five Score and Seven Years Ago by Relient K.  I've listened to the full album 3-4 times now, and I can say that it is quite impressive.  The 11-minute album closer "Deathbed" is probably the best thing they've ever done by a long shot.  Who ever thought that guys that sang about Marilyn Manson and Charles in Charge could write a Sufjan Stevens type song?

Is that Jon Foreman for about 30 seconds at the end?

[murlough23]

Is that Jon Foreman for about 30 seconds at the end?

Yep.

NP: "Plenty of Paper", Eisley

[Nathan]

Black Mirror - Arcade Fire

[Josh Powell]

Future Of Forestry - Thinking Of You "Twilight"

[Wildcatblue7]

Steely Dan--Countdown to Ecstasy

[Harenil]

Muse - Map of Your Head

[Wildcatblue7]

Dream Theater--Scenes from a Memory

I guess I just needed a break from them, because this is great.

[Josh Powell]

Patty Griffin - Crying Over "Children Running Through"

[murlough23]

Toby Mac's Portable Sounds. Got a download link from a college friend who is the biggest dc Talk fan I've ever met (the album comes out on his son's first birthday). I guess now I have an entry for SGTC Round 4, "Hey, haven't I seen you before?", since Toby is a solo artist from a group that I like.

NP: "Made to Love", Toby Mac

[bloop]

Yeah, I think I'm going to go with James Iha's Let It Come Down for the game in round 4.  He was a guitarist with The Smashing Pumpkins.

[enemy anemone]

some random Violent Femmes stuff. I forget what eight was for.

[starhawk]

"Red Will Dye these Snows of Silver" - Joy Electric

It's a first song from the upcoming The Otherly Opus, and boy is it something else.  Heavy on the vocals, sparse on the synths, warm melodies and difficult, chilly production.  I think it's brilliant.

[murlough23]

I'm giving John Reuben's Word of Mouth and Dustin Kensrue's Please Come Home a trial run this week.

NP: "Dirty Second Hands", Switchfoot

[cowdude]

For those who still care about Mars ILL and "Glam Rap", here is a part on their interview from Jesusfreakhideout:

JFH (John): What are your thoughts on the current hip-hop scene?
manCHILD: If you're talking about sort of what's in the mainstream... pop rap: we don't like it, pretty much. I mean there are some guys who are skilled, but I don't like their music. But a lot of them are clowns. Industry clowns. But there are still guys - the forefathers - those guys are still doin' it. And a lot of people like us are really still doin' it, bangin' it out, and making good music. I mean, there's a lot of them we respect.

Dust: It's like any music genre, there are people that are just... (manCHILD: ...clones of what the record labels think that people want to hear.) Executives are like, "We need another Third Day in here! Who can we get that sounds like them?" And then there are artists that just are what they are. And there are plenty of those guys, but usually, it's labels that are trying to find out what's hot and duplicate that. (manCHILD: Find another five bands...) Unfortunately, hip-hop is no different. There are so many clones.

manCHILD: Since everybody raps, it's easy to find them. It's easy to find 'em and shape 'em and make 'em. (Dust: Say "yeah just do 'this,' it's hot!") (Amy: What's pop rap?) The popular stuff. Nelly, 50 Cent... anything on pop radio. Anything... *mimics announcer voice* the latest in hip-hop and R&B! It's pop rap. I mean there are guys like JayZ and Oz who exist in the mainstream market and are real emcees, but I'd say more and more and more, these guys, this Mike Jones, these guys that are just... best way to say it is, it's almost like 'glam rap.' 'Glam rock' - but with rap. They're pretty and they got makeup on and really look good with their shirts off but there's really no substance whatsoever.

[Wildcatblue7]

A Perfect Circle's Mer de Noms has gotten quite a few spins lately (got it tuesday and I've listened to it six or seven times all the way through...I can't wait to blast it on the BOSE at home!).  "The Hollow" in particular is outstanding.  I think Thirteenth Step was an improvement, but MdN is pretty much fabulous.

Next up on the Maynard James Keenan queue . . . I'm determined to track down Tool's Lateralus.

[murlough23]

manCHILD: If you're talking about sort of what's in the mainstream... pop rap: we don't like it, pretty much.

I'm still confused as to whether it's the genre they don't like, or just the style-with-no-substance commonly associated with the genre. It seems like they refuse to acknowledge that good music can be made within that genre.

[Aaron]

There really isn't much good pop-rap.  Maybe 1%

[murlough23]

There really isn't much good pop-rap.  Maybe 1%

That doesn't mean it can't be made, though.

I wonder what they think of John Reuben. He's kind of pop-rap.