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Author Topic: God In the Numbers  (Read 584 times)
MJanke
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« on: March 16, 2006, 12:22:55 AM »

« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 12:23:27 AM by MJanke » Logged

murlough23
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2006, 02:40:29 PM »

I loved this article as well. It revived the dormant math geek within me, and reminded me how much I loved to manipulate abstract numerical/algebraic concepts in college (which is why I majored in math).

As for how it relates to God's existence? The cynical might argue that we're just seeing what we want to see based on numeric concepts that man has defined (such as the whole e to the i pi thing). Still, observing these recurrences in nature is enough, I think, to give one pause. As the article acknowledges, it's hardly sufficient to prove the existence of the Christian God, but it does tip the scale a little bit more in favor of Intelligent Design, rather than random chaos.

And the 1/(unprintable obscenely large factor of 10) chance of the universe just "happening" to come together as it did is rather compelling, too. Though, playing Devil's Advocate for a second, what if every possible universe that could ever exist, did exist? Then we'd just be one of the handful among an even more obscenely large number that happened to be able to support sentient life, and of course, there wouldn't be sentient life in all the other universes pondering why they were among the majority. In other words, by definition, we'd only exist in one of that small handful of universes that could support our existence.

This is becoming more philopsophical than mathematical, I guess - I'm just trying to anticipate the next move that the other side would make in such a debate. Obviously, it takes just as much, if not more faith, to hold such a belief that there aer infinitely many universes rather than one Intelligently Designed by God... but I can understand a little healthy skepticism.

NP: "Hold Fast Hope", Thrice
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Vlad!
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2006, 06:58:35 PM »

My reaction was the opposite of Murlough's: I hate math, even though I have a mathematics minor.

There is much in this article that is compelling, but honestly I just see it as so much Christian wankery. I mean, where was this published? Christianity Today. How many atheists do you suppose have a subscription to CT and read that article thinking "oh, wow, I guess I was wrong this whole time"?

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It derives from a formula by Jacob Beckenstein and Stephen Hawking and describes the chances of our universe being created at random.
As Murlough said, in the infinite, anything can happen. If you view all of time as an infinite continuum, then eventually every possible thing must happen, no matter how improbable it is. The ten to the ten to the 123rd number does not prove either the existance of God or the intelligent design of the universe.

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For Darwin's theory to have a chance of being right, the universe would have to be a trillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion times older than it is. Because the universe is so young, Darwin's argument fails, and William Paley's contention that design presupposes a designer becomes more persuasive.
This reasoning does seem to point to a fatal flaw in macroevolution. Evolution sans God makes absolutely no sense to me, and I can't even fathom the mind of someone who would intellectually analyse it and still believe in it enough to play devil's advocate here.

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The idea that these two irrational numbers should combine with an imaginary one to yield so utilitarian a result is breathtaking. It is like deconstructing a chemical necessary for life (salt) and finding that it consists of two deadly poisons (sodium and chlorine). That these three strange numbers with such diverse origins should work together to produce a result so basic to mathematics argues that there is a profound elegance or beauty built into the system.
I personally don't think that God created our numbering system. I am certainly open to arguments on this since whenever I think about it too hard my mind boggles and I have to go do something else for a while, but it seems to me that the system we use for numbers and counting transcends creation, existing merely because it is, because it describes something. A pre-existant God almost necessitates a pre-existant number, since for there to be one God, the number one has to be conceivable. While the fact that these trancendentals can combine in such a way is amazing, I don't think it's a proof of the divine.

I don't think that God is something that truly needs proof. It's sort of like love. You can deny that love exists, deny that what you're feeling is love, deny that two people can really be in love, but ultimately, in order to make it work, you have to lie to yourself. At some point something will hit you and you will know that it is love, and you will have to convince yourself that it is not in order to continue down the path which denies that love exists. Articles like this are good if only to prove that atheists and agnostics aren't the only ones with science and reason on their side, but really I look at links like this the same way I look at people who try to convince members of the Flat Earth Society that the world is truly round: you're trying to prove something that these people already know innately but refuse to admit.  
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2006, 01:16:09 AM »

Vlad!, I don't think that Janke or I took any of the above as proof of the Divine... just as a strong hint. At some basic level, a leap of faith will always be required. Things like this just help to narrow the gap, or at the very least, point out to an atheist how big of a leap of faith they are taking with this sort of evidence suggesting order instead of randomness. Still, faith is faith. If something you have faith in is empirically proven, you would no longer have to have faith in it; it would just be a known fact.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2006, 11:21:16 AM »

The article claims that these numbers point to God's existence. I'm just trying to show that the numbers themselves just represent data; it's how we interpret these data that indicates the existence or non-existence of God.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
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MJanke
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2006, 01:12:29 PM »

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The article claims that these numbers point to God's existence. I'm just trying to show that the numbers themselves just represent data; it's how we interpret these data that indicates the existence or non-existence of God.
If I walk into an empty room and see wet footprints on the ground one could say that they point to the reality that someone had walked through the room just before I was there, of they could take the stance that you are here and say that the footprints are just data, and it's how you interpret that data that will indicate whether or not someone just walked into the room before me.  
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Vlad!
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2006, 01:32:52 PM »

Yes, but by claiming that the numbers themselves point to God, the article is implying  that the existence of God is the only really valid interpretation of these numbers. I'm not so sure that's the case, because as I pointed out above, in two of the three instances these numbers are certainly open to significantly different interpretation.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
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murlough23
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2006, 01:40:29 PM »

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The article claims that these numbers point to God's existence. I'm just trying to show that the numbers themselves just represent data; it's how we interpret these data that indicates the existence or non-existence of God.
Point to. Not prove. There's a difference.
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