Random confused questions/musings

[Vlad!]

I apologize in advance for ramblings/non-making-sensings. It's been a long day.

I was thinking today, how many times have I prayed for something to happen and it did not happen? A billion? I remember when I was just a little kid and one of my teachers said something like "God gives three answers to prayer: yes, no, and wait". Even then, I thought that "no" and "wait" seemed to be the disproportionate majority.

This in itself is not too bothersome. God doesn't 'owe' humanity anything; he is neither a magic spell to be invoked or a formula that can be followed. However, God makes two claims in the Bible:
* I will do what you ask
* I keep my promises
These two claims run throughout the text. There isn't just an isolated citation that can be semanticized away or defanged by Biblical scholars until it carries no real weight. Jesus himself repeatedly says that God gives us gifts, God will honor our requests, God will respond when called upon in the name of his son. These promises come essentially unqualified. Some people say "well, God really only grants the requests of those who are in his will and ask things in accordance with his plan". But this makes the promise essentially worthless; it is God saying "I will do what I want so long as you ask me first, and if you ask me something that I don't want then I won't do it".

And God is always identified as faithful; that he keeps his side of the bargain even when we fail to. One might say that it is one of his primary characteristics, mentioned frequently throughout the scriptures, Old Testament and New. Granted, the statement "I keep my promises" is a tautology, but even so, the fact is that one of the reasons we hold God as worthy of glory is because of his faithfulness.

So how are these things reconciled? Please don't just reply by bashing me, saying that I'm being selfish or expecting God to "follow my orders". That's not it at all. I would be perfectly fine if God said "I expect you to live your lives, and while I will occasionally intervene, it will be very rare and under exceptional circumstances". This would make way more sense to me. But the fact is, the Bible seems to claim otherwise, and this claim does not mesh with reality.

[Brenden]

I've been wondering the same things, accompanied by a non-desire to be involved in christianity and an increased annoyance by "christian answers".

The last 20 years in the church have led up to me being very dissatisfied with life and wondering why, after having Christ, I still feel so empty.

Personally, Deism has been looking quite attractive lately.

[plumb_fan]

Vlad, I honestly don't know what answer I could give to you.  From my reading of the Word it seems clear that God answers only that within His will.  I think something we all fail to realize sometimes though is that if we truly love Him we will be seeking His will.  We wouldn't want a "yes" to something outside of it.  I'm not sure if that's really what you were asking though.  I think it should also be kept in mind that God may answer prayers in a time or manner in which we were not expecting.

Brenden, I have the same thoughts on Christianity.  It is only a religion and religion will do nothing but leave you empty.  Christ is different though.  He is a person; not a set of ideas or doctrines.  I think that is one of the biggest problems we have in the Church today.  We view God as an idea or concept, but not as a person.  I cannot tell you how much it has hindered the growth of my relationship with Him.  All i'll say is this, once I began viewing Christ as my best friend and truly treating Him as such major changes began to occur.  Now I can't imagine a life without Him.

[enemy anemone]

I don't have any answers and would never bash you for asking. what you wrote reminded me of something I read about by C.S. Lewis, but I can't remember where or what it was called. basically the same question, but I think with more of a comparison between the two kinds of ways we're told to pray, for a specific request and for God's will to be done. going from memory, his thought was that if it was just the one or the other, he wouldn't have a problem, but it's both, so why and which one to pray when and what does it all mean?
a google search reveals that he wrote an essay called "Petitionary Prayer: A Problem Without an Answer". most likely this is what I'm thinking of.

[Brenden]

All i'll say is this, once I began viewing Christ as my best friend and truly treating Him as such major changes began to occur.  Now I can't imagine a life without Him.

Thing is, that's what I WAS doing.

[Vlad!]

Brenden, I too have found myself considering Deism. But the following things are currently holding me back:
* Practical/personal considerations. Pretty much my entire family is Christian, either devout (like my immediate family) or somewhat more casual (like some members of my extended family). Also, there are a large number of people--teachers, pastors, co-workers, mentors--who are Christian, and whom I respect. To tell these people I have become a Deist would be first very distressing to many of them, and would also be engaging in enough hubris to even give myself pause. It's like saying "despite the fact that you are older, have more experience, and (in some cases) are more intelligent than I am, I know more about God, life, and the universe than you do".
* Emptiness of religion. Deism is a pretty empty belief. It's hard to worship a God who's off doing his own thing most or all of the time. It's also hard to believe that God would just create the human race and then either get bored with us or give up in disgust (much as I can see the rationale for doing so). It's hard to prove a negative, and it's also hard to reconcile pure Deism with the fact that God does sometimes seem to take an interest in human affairs, both in history and in our modern world.
* Jesus Christ. Pure Deism either denies that Christ had an element of divinity, or denies most of the stories about him. However, evidence very strongly points to his existance, and I have trouble saying that he was just a man.

Thanks for the replies, everyone, and thanks for putting up with my attempts to voice something that I have trouble stating in a way that makes sense even to me.

[Josh Powell]

[Josh]

Where does God ever promise to do what we ask him? That's a claim that I'm not entirely sure is biblical. God promises to answer our prayers, certainly, but He does not promise to give us exactly what we want, or even to answer our prayers right when we pray them.

The Bible DOES say that God answers the promises of His people-- of righteous men-- but that begs the question of what the righteous man prays for. I presume that the prayers of the righteous man will follow the same basic pattern as the prayers of Christ Himself, and Christ prays mostly for the will of God to be done. Now THAT's something that God will always answer!

Oh, and deism is not even close to compatible with biblical Christianity, mostly for the reasons that Vlad! mentioned-- deism simply has to deny the incarnation and saving work of Christ. And you'd have to throw out, um, most of the rest of the Bible, too-- it's hard to find a single page of God's Word that does not testify to His works of providence in the lives of His saints! Deism is, in fact, heresy, and a total denial of God's revelation.

[Brenden]

Jesus Christ. Pure Deism either denies that Christ had an element of divinity, or denies most of the stories about him. However, evidence very strongly points to his existance, and I have trouble saying that he was just a man.

Yeah, that's my main block too.

[Vlad!]

[Josh]

[Vlad!]

I see you ignored the rest of Luke 11. I will repeat it here for clarity:

"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Now on to your points:

In this passge there IS in fact a condition that Christ gives us-- praying in His name. And praying in Christ's name means more than just saying "in Jesus' name" at the end; praying in Christ's name means to identify with the purpose of Christ to the point that our will is now identified with the will of God Himself.

This is the stereotypical Christian answer, which isn't to say that it's necessarily wrong, but I have already considered this point. I don't think this interpretation is supported by the text. After all, through your interpretation it could also be phrased "I will do what you ask, so long as you're asking me to do something that I wanted to do anyway". So how do you know whether something is in God's will or not? I have known people who are positive they are praying for things that are part of God's will, and yet these things do not come to pass. So it's really circular: God will only do something you ask if it is his will to do so, and you can only truly know it's his will if he does it. This, as I hope you can see, is meaningless.

This is a simple matter of context; this entire context is talking about salvation-- something that Christ gives to anyone who asks for it.

Believe me, I hate it when people quote scripture out of context to support their own points. I read the entire chapter to make sure I wasn't missing anything that would limit the promise. In fact, I would have quoted the entire chapter for each of these scriptural references, except that Bible texts are freely available online all over the place and it would just serve to make my own text lost in some unrelated stuff.
However, I think in this case it is not a matter of context confusion. He is talking about salvation in this passage, but he says "ask whatever you wish". This phrase remains the same in NIV, NASB, and ESV. There is no way it can be construed to be talking just about salvation. There are many places in the Bible where Christ mentions specifically that salvation must be accepted by us before it will be given freely, but those passages are very explicit about what is asked and what is given. Not so here; this passage clearly places no limit on what may be asked for, only that we "remain in" Christ, and he in us.

Again, effective prayer is here identified with obedience to God's Word (good fruit) and an identification with God's Will.

And again, this interpretation is a tautology. It could certainly be argued that this passage is a promise to certain people rather than to Christians as a whole. However, that is not the context in which this verse is commonly quoted, so I thought I would include it.

This is a parable illustrating the importance of persistent prayer; reading it too literally will be unfruitful, I think.

But why? Why is persistent prayer important? It is important to those who want their prayers to be answered, hence the parable. The message, I think, is clear: through persistent prayer, through boldly going to the throne of God, you will impress yourself upon him and receive consideration. I agree that this is not an ironclad promise like much of the above, but it certainly adds to the pile of evidence. Jesus claims that God answers prayer by giving us what we ask for, if not all the time (as you claim, and I don't refute, that this passage does not guarantee) then at least a significant amount of time--if not, why bother to say it at all? I don't think I am being unreasonable in asserting that the majority of prayers go unanswered, or the answer is not what the suppliant wanted. And to forestall the obvious counterargument, again, I am not saying that this is unreasonable of God. I am just saying that it runs counter to what we have been told.

Here the request in view seems to be a particular one-- the coming of Christ and His just judgement.

I don't think that is necessarily the case, but here your argument has weight. I will be willing to concede this point, if only to keep from diluting this thread with too many different points of contention.


It always seems like when I want to argue a big picture, the thread gets weighed down in minutae. It's not that these things aren't important, but since we can't even agree on the interpretation of a given passage, I have little hope that anything you say, built on a foundation that already apparently diverges so far from mine, will give me the sort of satisfaction I am looking for. I find myself increasingly dissatisfied with the way Christianity is presented. It's as though--to use an analogy that is admittedly a bit of a stretch--Christianity is a giant equation, and the number written on the board is 1,000, and I'm coming up with -12. When I ask about the discrepancy, we then spend all our time discussing the finer points of the cosine function. Yes this is important, but making sure we agree to the 5th degree of precision past the decimal point is not going to change the fact that my number and yours are orders of magnitude apart. I keep looking for the one thing--the place where I'm dividing when I should be multiplying, or subtracting instead of adding--that will bring my answer significantly closer to the one that so many other people seem so sure is right. Instead, each discussion seems to inch me closer by mere fractions, if at all.

Josh, I know that as an aspiring theologian this is your bread and butter. But even though as a scientist I enjoy the discussion of minute details, I find it frustrating when the differences are so sweeping but the things we're discussing are ever more exacting. The answer to my dissatisfaction is surely not to be found in going into the Greek and determining the exact meaning of one word or another. Perhaps it is, but if the foundation of my faith rests upon the meaning of a single word then it is a shaky faith indeed.

Also, as you well know, I spent 13 years in a Christian school. I have been going to church for at least that long. I know the typical Christian answers very well, and I also by now know the answers that make even the typical Christians look at you in awe. I have read the entirety of the New Testament, and am reading through the Old. A section of my bookshelf is dedicated to books with promising titles from big-name Christian writers, books that I read in the hopes that maybe this author would reveal the one thing that I'm missing, the thing that allows so many people to be satisfied, fulfilled, and joyful in their faith while I am full of questions and dissatisfaction.

Anyhow, please continue. It's been a while since I've run on the Treadmill of Internet Debating; maybe this time around I'll be somewhere new when I step off.

[Josh]

I wonder if it might be helpful to first make some general comments about prayer, then maybe return to some of the specific questions and passages that you brought up, Vlad!

Long ago, I recall hearing someone-- perhaps a chapel speaker at school-- compare prayer to a two-way conversation.This, quite frankly, is dumb. We pray to God; God does not pray to us. Prayer is one half of the conversation-- the part in which we present our praises, our confessions, and our petitions to God. The other half of the conversation is the reading of God's Word-- the part in which God speaks to us.

This is crucial. Talking about prayer without also talking about the reading of the Word will lead to all kinds of muddled theology. Our prayers should be responses to-- and guided by-- the Word of God. After all, the Bible is not a book like any othe book-- it is actually, literally, the voice of God speaking to us. It is inspired, thus inerrant, thus infallible, thus devoid of any contradiction or error. Thus, I think it's reasonable to suggest that an understood condition of the promises you cited before, Vlad!, is that our prayers be according to God's Word.

This brings me to my next point, which is that, frankly, some prayers are better than others. In fact, God does not even HEAR certain prayers! (Specifically, those of the lost.) But here we notice one thing that ALL of the passages you cited have in common: In each one of them, Jesus is addressing a very specific group of people-- His disciples.

Thus, these promises about prayer do not extend to everyone; God's covenant promises apply only to believers. So, when one of Christ's followers asks for something in Christ's name, it will be given to them. So, the next question is, what does a follower of Christ ask for? Here we can do no better than to turn to the example of Christ Himself, for surely the prayers of the Christian will be modeled after those of the Savior:

Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
and the power,
and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

It probably goes without saying that, if you pray for any of these things, and do so in Christ's name, they will be given to you. It also bears mentioning that most of the passages you cited above come directly AFTER Christ's teachings about how to pray, such as His institution of the Lord's Prayer; thus, it's fair to say that, contextually, Christ is talking about godly prayers-- prayers like His own.

I might also note that, to be quite blunt, God does not in any way NEED our prayers; prayer is, to a large extent, a gift to us. A large part of prayer is the conforming of our will's to His; this is not to say that prayer does not change things, or that petition is not important, but God uses prayer, I think-- even prayers that may seem "unanswered"-- to help us to grow in our understanding of His purpose and plan.

Finally, regarding the specific passages you cited before, I'm sticking by my assertion that some of them are talking not about prayer in general, but about salvation; a couple of those verses come smack dab in the middle of Jesus talking about salvation, thus it makes sense that that is how we should understand those teachings about prayer.

[Tom]

my biggest weakness spiritually is probably my tendency toward fatalism. when things go badly my knee jerk reaction is: "well, that sucks. but it was supposed to happen that way and there wasn't any way of preventing it." pretty much the Charlie Brown School of Theology.

perhaps this is due to the fact that when i'm upset i have a difficult time reconciling God's Soverignty with my life's possibilities.

[Josh]

Arthur Pink always has insightful things to say; here's a very brief article about prayer that addresses some of the things we've been talking about in this thread.

[Vlad!]

Josh, I was sort of taking about half of what you said for granted anyway. I mean, its obvious that God will not do anything a believer asks. On the radio this morning, one of the hosts said "I am making this public promise now: if my flight is not delayed and I can go see the Red Sox game tonight, I will go to church on Sunday". I thought "yeah, great, this guy is trying to bribe God so that he can go to a Red Sox game".

This is not the sort of thing I'm talking about. I don't care about the self-centered "prayers" of an annoying morning show host. My question is about the devout prayers of Christians whose lives are bearing fruit and whom I admire for their Christ-likeness. So yes, I agree with most of the implicit assumptions you say are present.

It probably goes without saying that, if you pray for any of these things, and do so in Christ's name, they will be given to you.

Really? Well, let's see:

Thy kingdom come.

Well, we certainly believe that God's kingdom will come eventually. This is sort of like praying for rain. Sure, sometime in the next year or so it is going to rain. It would still happen even if you hadn't prayed for it.

Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

I view this less as a request than as a state of mind. I see it as a statement equivalent to "God, I trust in your will, and I want to see it done on earth".

Give us this day our daily bread.

This statement is very general. Christ mostly got his food the same way everyone else did. There are miracles regarding food in the Bible, but they are not performed in conjunction with this particular prayer. Rather, I see this as an acknowledgement that Christ depended on the Father for his very existence, which could be withdrawn at the Father's whim.

And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

Christ certainly saw sore temptations in his life. So do we. Will praying for the cessation of these temptations really cause them to cease?

The Lord's Prayer, while inspirational, is also very general. Christ did not say "Heal Peter's broken toe, Lord, for it is making it hard for him to walk" or "Father, please give me wisdom to improve the relationship with my brother. I love him very much, but I cannot seem to relate to him". We do not see him asking for very specific things to fill specific needs.

I might also note that, to be quite blunt, God does not in any way NEED our prayers; prayer is, to a large extent, a gift to us. A large part of prayer is the conforming of our will's to His; this is not to say that prayer does not change things, or that petition is not important, but God uses prayer, I think-- even prayers that may seem "unanswered"-- to help us to grow in our understanding of His purpose and plan.

I have no problem with this. I would gladly believe this with no qualms, were it not for the fact that the Bible seems to promise more.

Finally, regarding the specific passages you cited before, I'm sticking by my assertion that some of them are talking not about prayer in general, but about salvation; a couple of those verses come smack dab in the middle of Jesus talking about salvation, thus it makes sense that that is how we should understand those teachings about prayer.

I just fail to see how the very general language ("ask me for anything", "ask whatever you wish", "the Father will do whatever you ask in my name") can be construed to apply just for salvation.

my biggest weakness spiritually is probably my tendency toward fatalism. when things go badly my knee jerk reaction is: "well, that sucks. but it was supposed to happen that way and there wasn't any way of preventing it." pretty much the Charlie Brown School of Theology.

perhaps this is due to the fact that when i'm upset i have a difficult time reconciling God's Soverignty with my life's possibilities.

Tom, I certainly empathize. I am a very fatalistic person as well. It's hard not to be sometimes when you're honest with yourself.

[Blue Third]

This brings me to my next point, which is that, frankly, some prayers are better than others. In fact, God does not even HEAR certain prayers! (Specifically, those of the lost.)

Forgive me as I comment and lead this thread off on a tangent.   I dont wish to start some kind of debate over the subject, but i'd love a response.  I actually joined with the specific purpose of commenting on this thread,  so please be patient.  (Apologies to Vlad!)

Anyways, I have heard this general opinion several times before - that God does not hear the prayers of the lost.  That's always bothered me.   If our God refuses to hear the prayers of the lost, then how does anyone get 'found'?   This is something i'd love to understand.  Also, there are instances where God answers prayer in dangerous situations and such....and there may or may not have been a 'true believer' there to offer up a prayer.  Not everyone is completely at the point of conversion....I would argue that many who are on their way to salvation may pray and ask God for answers and direction.   Why would God not...in the process of revealing himsef....listen to & answer these prayers???

 There have been a couple times in the past where I felt that I had lost my salvation.   Don't wish to wander onto the epic  permanent/unstable salvation topic, but you see - because I had continually heard that God does not listen to the lost, satan was able to attack me in such a way as to create a sort of terror.   I was lost without hope for redemption because God had stopped listening.   Now surely alot of that was faulty theology prayed upon by the devil, but still...there is that element where you've got to ask - where should Christians stand?    Just which prayers and whose prayers - assuming there are parameters - does God listen to.   Is the Bible specific on this?

I've made this longer than planned.    But yeah, I'd love a reply on this as it's something often on my mind.     Thanks!

(oh and yes, carry on with the topic at hand.   Quite an interesting read, even skimming it.   I'm afraid I'm with Vlad! on this one.  Prayer is quite the confusing subject.   In times of strong skepticism, I've thought us Christians to be quite the fools.  Seemingly with our "yes, no, maybe" typical response to questions about prayer,  we leave room for anything at all to be an answer from God.   In this way, we can never be 'disappointed' .  But in the same way,  can we ever fully believe?      I imagine such things have already been touched on...just commenting. )

[Vlad!]

Welcome, Blue Third. Glad to have you.

As to your comments about God not even hearing certain prayers...I'm not entirely sure where I stand on that. After all, God is omnipresent, right? So what's he doing, plugging his ears and singing "I'm not liiiiiiistening!" to himself? It's one thing to say that God doesn't acknowledge those prayers--they obviously are not included in promises made by Jesus to those who have devoted their lives to following him--but to say he doesn't even hear them? Not sure I buy that.

[Josh]

Some good questions, Blue Third. I'll respond as I find the time, hopefully tomorrow!

And welcome!

[chariotoffire]

I wonder if it might be helpful to first make some general comments about prayer, then maybe return to some of the specific questions and passages that you brought up, Vlad!

Long ago, I recall hearing someone-- perhaps a chapel speaker at school-- compare prayer to a two-way conversation.This, quite frankly, is dumb. We pray to God; God does not pray to us. Prayer is one half of the conversation-- the part in which we present our praises, our confessions, and our petitions to God. The other half of the conversation is the reading of God's Word-- the part in which God speaks to us.

This is crucial. Talking about prayer without also talking about the reading of the Word will lead to all kinds of muddled theology. Our prayers should be responses to-- and guided by-- the Word of God. After all, the Bible is not a book like any othe book-- it is actually, literally, the voice of God speaking to us. It is inspired, thus inerrant, thus infallible, thus devoid of any contradiction or error. Thus, I think it's reasonable to suggest that an understood condition of the promises you cited before, Vlad!, is that our prayers be according to God's Word.

Doesn't this assume that God only speaks through His word? What, He can't speak to us now? The still small voice?

[Vlad!]

> Doesn't this assume that God only speaks through His word? What, He can't speak to us now? The still small voice?

Not to say that he can't, but experiential evidence suggests that he doesn't.

[Tom]

[Josh]

Doesn't this assume that God only speaks through His word? What, He can't speak to us now? The still small voice?

Right-- the role of the Holy Spirit is to speak to us, but through God's Word. Think about it this way-- if you say that God actually spoke to you directly, apart from His Word, and revealed to you something that isn't already contained within His Word, then whatever He said to you would have to be made part of the biblical canon-- it is, after all, God's Word.

[dgp11776]

Right-- the role of the Holy Spirit is to speak to us, but through God's Word. Think about it this way-- if you say that God actually spoke to you directly, apart from His Word, and revealed to you something that isn't already contained within His Word, then whatever He said to you would have to be made part of the biblical canon-- it is, after all, God's Word.

I completely agree with this.

[chariotoffire]