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Author Topic: Worship Songs You Would Gladly Never Hear Again on a Sunday Morning  (Read 3159 times)
murlough23
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« Reply #80 on: September 11, 2008, 11:50:33 AM »

Very true; that following Jesus often leads to a life consisting of more hardships.  However, the premise of the whole song is not entirely false. It's only false if you look at it from only one perspective. And some songs are not written directly for a broad category of listeners.

Yeah, I would assume that in the case of this one that I fall outside of the target audience, that target audience either being (a) prosperity Gospel-believing consumer Christian dimwits, or (b) 8-year-olds.

(Though well-written songs, should at times [depending on the songwriters skills], clarify their intended meaning more explicitly to minimize confusion and misunderstanding of the interpretated perspective the listener obtains upon listening to the song.)

Interpretate? Is that a word? I know P.O.D. used it in a song and all, but I think "interpret" works just fine.

Writing the song so that it explains itself better would probably ruin its ability to be concise, catchy, and easily singable by a group of 8-year-olds. Who cares about meaning when you've got a worship hit on your hands?

(I've noticed that the other songs Israel Houghton has written that we use, while musically sophisticated, are not terribly deep lyrically. I can give them a pass because I don't disagree with anything that they have to say.)

Even in the midst of hardships, everyday can indeed be sweeter than the day before. Why? Because we do get to know God more intimately everyday. Which very often is a paradoxtal time in our lives, when we're experiencing hardships and sorrows, because life does NOT feel sweet and dandy, but rather torturous. While at the same time our spiritual walk with God grows and matures, though it may seem to be in shambles also during that period. Which is why in those times, we need to rememeber what really does make everyday sweet, and use that reminder as encouragement and momentum for endurance.

Well yes, if one does so much interpretative work as to give oneself a hernia, then I suppose one could justify the meaning of the song. But your average churchgoer who the song is aimed at isn't going to bother; they're going to sing along with the catchy chorus and assume it's true at face value.

Things that are true, allowing for the assumption that "sweet" simply means "good": Every day with the Lord is sweeter than the equivalent day without the Lord would be, at least in terms of it being more beneficial for us. On average, as one matures as a Christian, life gets deeper and more meaningful, though there's a lot of up and down in the midst of this process. If one were to graph the value of sweetness with respect to time, I can guarantee you than the derivative would not always be a positive value. (Sorry to break out the calculus, but since the song is rather derivative, I couldn't help it.)

And even my most generous isn't taking into account the fact that things which are sweet (in the literal sense, meaning flavor) are often not the same things that are healthy for you.

In saying that, the song isn't written good.

Indeed.

Kinda funny I read through this thread, because today I was talking about how a lot of music isn't written very good.

You're learning. Good job.

An intriguing side note, that I realized one day while studying some psychology, is that most songwriters inadvertently use research methods in their songwriting. (I never thought of songwriting like that before.) Which can be one of the main problems with a vast majority of lyrics lacking challenging thought nowdays.

This and the rest of your explanation of the subject was quite profound; it gets at the root of the problem more specifically and concisely than I could have ever hoped to explain it. The minute we start letting market research dictate how we write our songs, that's the minute we've started to overthink it. Songwriters need the freedom to write from the heart with no agenda other than to express what God has put there in whatever creative terms are truest for the writer. At that point, I'm fine with record executives and PR departments and whoever else trying to figure out which audience would best respond to that music and making sure those people catch wind of it... if this can be done without pressuring the artist to change in order to improve the sales. It's doubly sad that worship which we label "worship" is subject to such stringent guidelines and procedures.

I've been a human long enough to know that human nature is inherently selfish and greedy. We want what feels good for us in the short term. Worship - in the sense of a total, sold-out devotion to a higher power who may ask great sacrifices of us - doesn't really fit into that paradigm. Perhaps it does when we feel like we've brokered a deal with God, that if we say nice, fluffy things about Him, He'll reward us with cool stuff or at least make us feel better about ourselves. But we're really just making worship about stroking our own egos at that point. Which is pretty much the farthest thing from actual worship that we could be doing.

This is why I don't trust worship music, or really anything that brands itself as "Christian music", if it's basically being cooked up in a lab after heavy amounts of market research. The more you attempt to maximize the number of people who will like something, the more you have to kowtow to the selfish whims of human nature. This is why I think it's time to stop focusing on the quantities of people who will like something - even if that generates hits and that's what keeps business booming - and start focusing on the quality of it, even if it turns off a lot of people who haven't gotten over the "me first" paradigm of "worship".

With all that said, have we finally managed to wean you from Kutless?
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NewDimension
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« Reply #81 on: September 11, 2008, 07:56:25 PM »

Isn't written very well.

Just sayin'. >_>

Funny yet true. I knew while writing that sentence, that it was poorly stuctured, but didn't take the time to put thought into reconstructing it. A perfect example of something that isn't written well, because little thought is put into it.
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murlough23
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« Reply #82 on: September 11, 2008, 08:03:21 PM »

Funny yet true. I knew while writing that sentence, that it was poorly stuctured, but didn't take the time to put thought into reconstructing it. A perfect example of something that isn't written well, because little thought is put into it.

It's a message board post, we didn't pay to read it, and you're not being put on magazine covers as this huge celebrity who wins tons of awards for your incredibly meaningful message board posts or anything. So I'd wager there's much less of an issue here than, say, if you'd written that into a song.

NP: "Invisible", Modest Mouse
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bloop
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« Reply #83 on: September 11, 2008, 08:21:37 PM »

After going over these songs, I think I'm still sticking to my original answer of "just about all of them".
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NewDimension
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« Reply #84 on: September 11, 2008, 09:53:32 PM »

that target audience either being (a) prosperity Gospel-believing consumer Christian dimwits

Lol. The whole prosperity Gospel thing isn't completely inaccurate. There's numerous places in the Bible that speak of prosperity. And as we all know, prosperity in itself isn't wrong. It's just when it's taken to elevated heights, that go beyond the Scriptures, or only emphasize a certain Scripture and don't teach the rest of the Scriptures concerning that subject, when it gets dangerous. Concerning the song, it may have had an effect on the way it was written.

Interpretate? Is that a word? I know P.O.D. used it in a song and all, but I think "interpret" works just fine.

Interpret does work just fine, but it's always great to use a diversified range of words, instead of the same thing all the time.

Writing the song so that it explains itself better would probably ruin its ability to be concise, catchy, and easily singable by a group of 8-year-olds. Who cares about meaning when you've got a worship hit on your hands?

Actually, you can have a rather simple song that's quite perspicuous and at times profound about it's meaning. It largely depends on how transparent the lyrics are and how deep the writer wants to devle into the subject at hand. On the other hand, you can have a rather complex song, that's really catchy. Just depends on how it's written.

(I've noticed that the other songs Israel Houghton has written that we use, while musically sophisticated, are not terribly deep lyrically. I can give them a pass because I don't disagree with anything that they have to say.)

That's another problem with a lot of music, one aspect of it will be unique and sophisticated while another aspect is terrible. And since part of it is bad and the other part is good, it can lose it's credibility of good with some listeners, because of the partial job of excellence it obtains.

Well yes, if one does so much interpretative work as to give oneself a hernia, then I suppose one could justify the meaning of the song.

The interpretative work isn't real difficult if you accustom yourself to looking at things from a wide range of different perspectives, and examine songs and music more a more in-depth technique. But most people don't want to look at things from other perspectives, different from the outright obvious and their own personal view of the song. [Though of course, some songs are just written terrible. However, people should avidly analyze everything they listen to.]

But your average churchgoer who the song is aimed at isn't going to bother; they're going to sing along with the catchy chorus and assume it's true at face value.

What's that say about your average churchgoer? People who attend church on a regular basis, should be more adherent to analyzing all perspectives of things that they encounter, not just songs, in order to test validity of something parallelled with the word of God. Churches should teach people to analyze everything in-depth and remain skeptical of it, until it in some way agrees with the Scripture. (Of course there are exceptions to new, young, or weaker Christians; as well as those who aren't Christians who are in the churches. Which is why the songwriter should be more adamant to take into account the different perspectives all listeners will have on what they write, before and during their final composition.)

Things that are true, allowing for the assumption that "sweet" simply means "good": Every day with the Lord is sweeter than the equivalent day without the Lord would be, at least in terms of it being more beneficial for us. On average, as one matures as a Christian, life gets deeper and more meaningful, though there's a lot of up and down in the midst of this process. If one were to graph the value of sweetness with respect to time, I can guarantee you than the derivative would not always be a positive value. (Sorry to break out the calculus, but since the song is rather derivative, I couldn't help it.)

Exactly, which is why the song should have been written differently, in a more explanatory way, so the full message intended could be conveyed more properly for the accurate understanding of those who listen.

And even my most generous isn't taking into account the fact that things which are sweet (in the literal sense, meaning flavor) are often not the same things that are healthy for you.

That's true. Although, things that are sweet which aren't good for your health, are generally things that are artificial, and give a manipulative flavor, with no real natural ingredients of the flavor that the substance is intended to produce. Kind of like a sweet illusion really. Then there are the things that are naturally sweet, which are very beneficial to your health, and are often times considered "health food."

The minute we start letting market research dictate how we write our songs, that's the minute we've started to overthink it. Songwriters need the freedom to write from the heart with no agenda other than to express what God has put there in whatever creative terms are truest for the writer.

Exactly. A good share of "Christian" music has really strayed from the original intention of the music, and lost sight of the primary goal for it. In trying to reach the masses with message of Christ, they've forgotten the purpose of the music. And how can something be independently devoted to worshiping God, and still be so tensely overconcerned with the marketing approach and the number of listeners. Sure, you take it into account to a certain extent, but not to the point that it gets in the way of the ultimate goal for the music, the position your heart is in, or to the point it prohibits the lyrical content and creative approaches you use.

When the "Christian music industry," was first created, it wasn't planned out to be an industry. People who loved God and wanted to reach the world with His message, just wrote from their heart, and didn't have, "How shall I write my next big hit?" stuck in their minds while writing. They continued to play music, when they weren't getting paid. It was something they did out of their heart, not as a job to get over with as fast as possible, and then to do hurry into the next thing. If your heart and intentions aren't in the original place they were for worshiping God in music, then you lose your goal for the music in your pursuit to fulfill it. Don't lose the heart of the matter; otherwise it is generally, just a waste from the start.

 It's doubly sad that worship which we label "worship" is subject to such stringent guidelines and procedures.

It's extremely sad.

Perhaps it does when we feel like we've brokered a deal with God, that if we say nice, fluffy things about Him, He'll reward us with cool stuff or at least make us feel better about ourselves.

That's trying to appease God through our works, our own righteousness and goodness, (which we have none on our own) and literally becomes a religious effort to "do" or "have" worship, when true worship is only instigated through complete surrender to God, and acknowledging that He is in control. True worship is through grace alone, A.K.A unmerited favor, nothing we, in ourselves deserve, but have been given because of God's love and mercy for us.

But we're really just making worship about stroking our own egos at that point. Which is pretty much the farthest thing from actual worship that we could be doing.

Exactly.

This is why I don't trust worship music, or really anything that brands itself as "Christian music", if it's basically being cooked up in a lab after heavy amounts of market research. The more you attempt to maximize the number of people who will like something, the more you have to kowtow to the selfish whims of human nature. This is why I think it's time to stop focusing on the quantities of people who will like something - even if that generates hits and that's what keeps business booming - and start focusing on the quality of it, even if it turns off a lot of people who haven't gotten over the "me first" paradigm of "worship".  

That's really what Christians are called to do. Which is why, the "Christian music" label should be a different kind of label from those portrayed in the world. That label should set standards of excellence in all aspects, which the world can't offer in all its supposed success. Making the "Christian" label not just another statistical label, with greedy and self-seeking intentions, but to be uniquely different in the message, management, and skill of the and artists and recording labels they are apart of. It all pretty much boils down to this saying I like to say, "Be the thermostat, not just the thermometer."

With all that said, have we finally managed to wean you from Kutless?

I don't listen to them as much as I used to. (I can't remember the last time I listened to them actually, apart from hearing a few songs on the radio.) I still listen to them though, it just depends on the day, if I want to or not.  Haven't listened to a lot of one specific band or artist much though either. Lately, I've just been listening to a lot of different things, and if there's something that catches my ear, mind, or heart, I'll listen to it more. Mainly, I've been listening to some rap, songs in other languages, and then a mix of everything else....rock, classical, gospel, etc...
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 10:04:21 PM by NewDimension » Logged
NewDimension
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« Reply #85 on: September 11, 2008, 10:11:51 PM »

It's a message board post, we didn't pay to read it, and you're not being put on magazine covers as this huge celebrity who wins tons of awards for your incredibly meaningful message board posts or anything. So I'd wager there's much less of an issue here than, say, if you'd written that into a song.

NP: "Invisible", Modest Mouse

True, but when an error can be avoided, it's good to be mindful of it and take the necessary action required to change it and make it correct. I also think, because I do write songs, that sometimes I tend to analyze words more than some who don't. You could really say that about most people do any sort of writing whatsoever. (Not in all cases, but in the vast majority.)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 10:22:31 PM by NewDimension » Logged
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