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Vlad!
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« on: January 27, 2008, 08:42:13 AM » |
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So I have a question for all you pholks: how do you view baptism? Is it a critical part of salvation, or an external symbol and sign of obedience/renewal internally? Is it possible to be saved and not have been baptized?
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Aaron
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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2008, 08:51:18 AM » |
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So I have a question for all you pholks: how do you view baptism? Is it a critical part of salvation, or an external symbol and sign of obedience/renewal internally? Is it possible to be saved and not have been baptized?
External symbol and sign of obedience/renewal internally, much like holy communion. I do not believe it to be a critical part of salvation and yes it's possible to be saved and not have been baptized. I am an example of that. |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2008, 03:15:30 PM » |
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So what do you do with verses like 1 Peter 3:20b-22?
In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Aaron
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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2008, 03:16:31 PM » |
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So what do you do with verses like 1 Peter 3:20b-22?
In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Didn't you just answer your own question with the word "symbolizes"? |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2008, 05:33:41 PM » |
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The word symbolizes there to me refers to the water which saved Noah. The important part of that verse is how the verb "saves" clearly is attached to "baptism".
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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spacebrat311
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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2008, 05:46:23 PM » |
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It could easily be argued in context that if the water symbolizes baptism, then that means that baptism is a spiritual process of cleansing symbolized by a ceremony. Therefore, the internal cleansing is what is important, rather than the ceremony.
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sup.
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Aaron
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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2008, 07:31:06 PM » |
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It could easily be argued in context that if the water symbolizes baptism, then that means that baptism is a spiritual process of cleansing symbolized by a ceremony. Therefore, the internal cleansing is what is important, rather than the ceremony.
That is how I feel about the idea. |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2008, 08:04:02 PM » |
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I admit to being a crappy devil's advocate in this case because I don't really buy it myself, but many people at my church believe that baptism is part of salvation. My arguments parallel yours, but there are a lot of verses in the Bible which suggest that baptism is at least a very important part of a person's entrance into the new covenant. The tough part is when people ask me "are there any verses that support your view of baptism as a symbolic ceremony?". Well, not really, just like there are no verses that say it's not necessary to ride an elephant to work each day.
With baptism mentioned so many times (see: Paul's conversion, the disciples preaching at pentecost, the great commission, the conversion of the Ethiopian by Philip, the conversion of the jailer by Paul and Silas, etc. etc.) as part and parcel with repentance and salvation, the Bible certainly makes a point that baptism, while perhaps not saving a person, is very important.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Aaron
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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2008, 08:15:15 PM » |
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I just feel that if physical baptism was so vital for salvation, Jesus would have specifically referenced it in his teachings. When I hear people say "if you don't take communion, you're not really saved", I say to them "Jesus said DO this in remembrance of me, not do this or you're going to hell".
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Vlad!
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2008, 09:59:52 PM » |
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Well, Jesus does on several occasions instruct his disciples to baptize, and he himself was baptized as well.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Aaron
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« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2008, 12:34:12 AM » |
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Well, Jesus does on several occasions instruct his disciples to baptize, and he himself was baptized as well.
This is true, but I've never read a verse that said it was crucial to one's salvation. |
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Josh
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« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2008, 08:29:29 AM » |
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Crucial to salvation? Certainly not-- unless you're Roman Catholic, of course.
Crucial to sanctification? I'd say yes. As Vlad! has mentioned, Jesus commanded baptism numerous times, and was even baptized himself. Paul and Peter both stress the importance of baptism. To profess Christian faith and yet refuse baptism seems incongruous; the Christian strives for holiness, and so how could he/she refuse obedience to that most basic act of humility before Christ?
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Vlad!
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« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2008, 01:12:31 PM » |
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Crucial to salvation? Certainly not-- unless you're Roman Catholic, of course.
Church of Christ and (I think) the Lutheran church also believe this. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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bloop
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« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2008, 02:10:23 PM » |
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Yeah, I think we might officially, being as close as we are to Catholicism. I'm not sure I buy that it is crucial to salvation, though.
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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Aaron
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« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2008, 02:15:34 PM » |
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From the ELCA website on Lutherans and Baptism:
"ELCA Lutherans believe that baptism addresses itself to the question of salvation. In God’s gift of Baptism we are assured the forgiveness of sins to live a free, responsible and joyful life - in order that we might be saved everlastingly"
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Vlad!
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« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2008, 02:23:16 PM » |
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So basically, some people find Biblical support (in the 1 Peter verse and elsewhere) for the sanctifying power of baptism, while others view it as more of a symbolic gesture. This seems like an important point, since if it *is* necessary for salvation then it sucks for people who missed that step.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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bloop
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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2008, 03:44:27 PM » |
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Yeah, that's the part of the website I keyed into also, Wanderer. Like the RCC, the Lutheran Church practices infant baptism, which is an issue unto itself.
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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