Kutless, and other questionable Christian bands

[murlough23]

A review of Fireflight's Unbreakable - in which I laugh at them mercilessly for two reasons: "Blindside meets Evanescence" and the whole Bionic Woman thing.

http://www.epinions.com/content_425174797956

[Aaron]

A review of Fireflight's Unbreakable - in which I laugh at them mercilessly for two reasons: "Blindside meets Evanescence" and the whole Bionic Woman thing.

http://www.epinions.com/content_425174797956

They aren't even good enough to be Blindside meets evanescence..it's like Kutless meets evanescence...LOL

[plvarona]

A review of Fireflight's Unbreakable - in which I laugh at them mercilessly for two reasons: "Blindside meets Evanescence" and the whole Bionic Woman thing.

http://www.epinions.com/content_425174797956

I pretty much agree with you on this one.  I certainly agree with your overall assessment, although we differ on the tolerability of certain songs.

FWIW, I like to refer to this album as "Unlistenable", but I think like "Unbearable" (what you used) better.

[Aaron]

damn...i couldn't see the review the first time when I made my comment...now my post doesnt make sense..


$6 is generous...

[murlough23]

damn...i couldn't see the review the first time when I made my comment...now my post doesnt make sense..

It does. It shows that even when you couldn't read my full thoughts, you thought something similar to what I was thinking.

$6 is generous...

An album with 10 decent songs should be worth $10. I actually didn't find any that were so bad that I had to take away money, so what you're seeing is the sum of a handful of decent songs and some okay ones. The negative-worth songs are more Kutless's forte.

(EDIT: Whoops, turns out I added them up wrong. It should've been $4. I just corrected the total.)

[Aaron]

It does. It shows that even when you couldn't read my full thoughts, you thought something similar to what I was thinking.

An album with 10 decent songs should be worth $10. I actually didn't find any that were so bad that I had to take away money, so what you're seeing is the sum of a handful of decent songs and some okay ones. The negative-worth songs are more Kutless's forte.

(EDIT: Whoops, turns out I added them up wrong. It should've been $4. I just corrected the total.)

1. Many dimwits on message boards were raving about the album and quoting some review (probably JFH's MORONIC 5-MOTHEREFFING STAR REVIEW) with the blindside meets evanescence.  Either myself or another person said "more like Kutless meets Krystal Meyers".

2) 4 bucks makes more sense to me.  It could be worse.  it could be an album like Avalon, Stellar Kart, Pillar, Ringo Starr, and many other albums which I wouldn't pay 50 damn cents for.

[murlough23]

1. Many dimwits on message boards were raving about the album and quoting some review (probably JFH's MORONIC 5-MOTHEREFFING STAR REVIEW) with the blindside meets evanescence.  Either myself or another person said "more like Kutless meets Krystal Meyers".

The only way I can explain the JFH review was that somebody was already a fanboy. While it's true that it's hard for many reasonable critics to not fall prey to the temptation to rate something higher when you're a pre-existing big fan (this includes some of my JoC reviews), I do think that JFH does make it too easy for an artist already liked to rest on their laurels.

The Kutless meets Krystal Meyers comment being made somewhere else, independently of me, only serves to further illustrate the obvious truth of that observation.

Either that, or I ripped that person off and I'm too stubborn to admit it.

Nah, this is the only Christian music-related message board I read any more.

2) 4 bucks makes more sense to me.  It could be worse.  it could be an album like Avalon, Stellar Kart, Pillar, Ringo Starr, and many other albums which I wouldn't pay 50 damn cents for.

Which Avalon album are we talking about? I'd consider their latest to be worth more, if only because I liked a lot of the source material. I can't say that any of the covers are improvements, but the classic CCM lyrics sure beat the phoned-in lyrics that have been showing up in "original" Avalon songs of late. (That said, lyrics to a few songs I used to like are making me cringe when Avalon revists them - particularly 4Him's "The Basics of Life". I can't believe 4Him actually used to be my favorite group. Thank you, Jars of Clay, for rescuing me from that mess.)

[Aaron]

I liked many of the songs..when they were originally done.  I just thought that Avalon did a crap job with the arrangements.  This new lineup of the group is also the weakest lineup Avalon has ever assembled.  Greg Long annoys me to no end and sticks out like a fat guy wearing the Where's Waldo outfit.

[murlough23]

I liked many of the songs..when they were originally done.  I just thought that Avalon did a crap job with the arrangements.  This new lineup of the group is also the weakest lineup Avalon has ever assembled.  Greg Long annoys me to no end and sticks out like a fat guy wearing the Where's Waldo outfit.

I have a Greg Long album from back in the day that I sort of like... but yeah, let's be honest, he's only in the group because a founding member took off and the wifey pulled him in as a quick & easy replacement. I think their best lineup was either the original four, or when Cherie showed up to replace Nikki.

But I'm surprised that you ever liked them at all!

NP: "Cape Cod Kwassa Kwassa", Vampire Weekend

[Aaron]

I have a Greg Long album from back in the day that I sort of like... but yeah, let's be honest, he's only in the group because a founding member took off and the wifey pulled him in as a quick & easy replacement. I think their best lineup was either the original four, or when Cherie showed up to replace Nikki.

But I'm surprised that you ever liked them at all!

NP: "Cape Cod Kwassa Kwassa", Vampire Weekend

I never liked them but I recognize that they had an impact on CCM.  Testify to Love was everywhere and that was a good song.  I've listened to all of their albums (cause I try to do that for every artist if possible) and I do agree that their best lineup was the original. 

[murlough23]

Testify to Love was everywhere and that was a good song.

For as long as I shall live, they will overplay that song.

I've listened to all of their albums (cause I try to do that for every artist if possible) and I do agree that their best lineup was the original.

Agreed. I think A Maze of Grace was their best - a good number of solid songs on that album because they had a better pool of songwriters and didn't care that the vaguely Euro-dance pop sound they were going for wasn't trendy in CCM at all at the time. Oxygen is my other favorite, but more for sentimental reasons.

[NewDimension]

It does. It shows that even when you couldn't read my full thoughts, you thought something similar to what I was thinking.

An album with 10 decent songs should be worth $10. I actually didn't find any that were so bad that I had to take away money, so what you're seeing is the sum of a handful of decent songs and some okay ones. The negative-worth songs are more Kutless's forte.

(EDIT: Whoops, turns out I added them up wrong. It should've been $4. I just corrected the total.)

Okay, since you guys mentioned them....and seem to think (you guys would probably say you know) their really bad, what makes Kutless so bad to you guys? (in your terms "negative-worth songs are more Kutless's forte"...etc...) (What does "negative-worth" mean, and what are some examples, and how are they examples?) Is it just because you personally don't like their sound? They play/sing/scream/write lyrics terrible? Their music just doesn't connect with you? You don't believe they present their music or the gospel well? All of the above? Anymore reasons I forgot to list? I also would like to know why you think what you do, to gain a better understanding of why you say the things that you do about them (because I've noticed, you guys do it frequently). (Also, I wonder do you guys think it's good to constantly use someone as an example of something you really don't like......when after all, God is using them to impact people's lives for His glory daily? Would you want people doing it to you? Do you think Jesus would approve of how you use them as examples? I never said, don't use them as an example if that's your opinion, but how far is too far and how much is too much? Also, if you don't like someone or their style of music WHY continue talking about them...why not forget about them? And saying 'because it was so bad' is not really a valid answer.) Just curious...and I'm not stating this for some sort of argument about it, or to change your mind about whether you like their music or not (I couldn't change that either way).  I'd just like to know why you all think the way you do, and I really do highly respect each of your opinions.  *Not all people who listen to Kutless, don't know how to spell correctly. If you have any questions for me about anything, I'd be glad to answer them.
----Jesus Loves U ----
God Bless

[spacebrat311]

How does one even begin to answer a series of questions of this magnitude?
I'll bite. Obviously I can't speak for everyone.

what makes Kutless so bad to you guys?

Short answer:
Kutless is a band that is not only bad, but classically so. They are basically the epitome of genericism. Their lyrics are almost always rooted in decades-old CCM cliches, or modern rock (rawk!) cliches, with very little room for original thought. Their music is emblematic of lazy modern rock, with by-the-numbers power chord arrangements. Basically, Kutless make a great whipping boy precisely because most of what they do wrong is extremely indicative of some of the deep-seated flaws of a lot of CCM factory-rock. They take others' flaws and run with them, and therefore make an excellent base for comparison.

Also, if you don't like someone or their style of music WHY continue talking about them...why not forget about them?

Perhaps because their example is useful for reflection on other artists. Perhaps because they remind those of us who grew out of a less critically discerning viewpoint of CCM of our "roots" and how far we've come from them. And perhaps because we find it humorous.

[Ian]

Also, I wonder do you guys think it's good to constantly use someone as an example of something you really don't like......when after all, God is using them to impact people's lives for His glory daily?

First of all, your claim that God is using Kutless to impact people's lives is pretty questionable.  I have never heard of anyone who was personally impacted by Kutless's lyrics, or their music.  Most of Kutless's fans are youth group teens who listen because it's the some of the only "edgy" Christian rock they know of.

Would you want people doing it to you?

If you make bad music, people will say bad things about it.  There's nothing wrong with that.

Do you think Jesus would approve of how you use them as examples? I never said, don't use them as an example if that's your opinion, but how far is too far and how much is too much?

Jesus wasn't exactly lacking of criticizing thoughts.  I don't see why we shouldn't be, as long as we remain in our proper place.  You've gone too far when you begin judging the person making the music, and not the music itself.

[murlough23]

These Kutless questions are always fun to answer. Though also time-consuming. Maybe I should write an FAQ one of these days.

Okay, since you guys mentioned them....and seem to think (you guys would probably say you know) their really bad

They're. Sorry to be a grammar Nazi, but I invariably see this sort of thing at least once in any given rebuttal from a Kutless fan. A guy has to do what he can to preserve the English language.

(in your terms "negative-worth songs are more Kutless's forte"...etc...) (What does "negative-worth" mean, and what are some examples, and how are they examples?)

"Negative worth" only makes sense in the context of the review I wrote that we were discussing. I can see why it would sound odd to someone not familiar with the way I write. Basically, when I review a CD, at the end of the review I'll list each song and state how much I think each one is worth, using a baseline of $1 for a reasonably good song (since that's roughly what you'd pay on iTunes). This is obviously subjective to my tastes and the things that I think are important about music, but then, so is my entire review in general. (And so are anyone else's reviews.) I figure, a really awesome song is worth double that amount, so it's $2. Then I go down the scale - very good songs are $1.50, the aforementioned reasonably good ones are $1, just okay songs are $.50, and songs that do nothing for me are $0. The idea here is that if an artist makes more effort to give me a lot of quality material instead of just filler, I'll consider their album to be worth paying more for. That's my way of indicating to the reader whether I think it's worth going out and buying a new copy at retail price, or holding out for a sale or used copy or whatever.

Sometimes, I am exposed to songs which annoy or offend me so greatly that I find they they take away from the overall worth of the album. So I'll debit the band 50 cents for those, or in extreme cases, a dollar. I'm basically saying that the album would have been better without those songs. In Fireflight's case, I didn't find any to be that terrible (many were just generic, so I rated them at $0), but in Kutless's case, there's always at least one such song (usually many more) per album.

Keep in mind that I'm not trying to assign an overall, eternal worth to something here. I'm just saying, what would I pay for this? I'm not going to shell out a lot of money for something I don't enjoy listening to.

Is it just because you personally don't like their sound?

Not exactly. It is a bit of a generic and played-out style of music by this point. But there are other bands in the genre that I have enjoyed - I liked all of Creed's albums, for example (though I had my share of criticism for them as well), and there were a few other groups like Big Dismal that I got into at least briefly. I didn't think any of 'em were all that great, but some of them had far more memorable songs (or at least, memorable for positive reasons) than Kutless ever came up with.

My issue isn't so much the style of music - my issue is with bands that make a certain style of music because it's popular, but don't seem to understand how to make it unique. Most of Kutless's songs demonstrate rudimentary musical skill at best. I may not know how to play the electric guitar (I say that because a common rebuttal to this criticism is, "Oh yeah, let's hear you play something better!"), but I can tell easy-as-pie power chords in the same old humdrum progressions being played over and over when I hear them. I can tell whether a drummer's doing anything more than keeping the same regular 4/4 beat. I can tell whether or not I can even hear a bass player. You might think it's a bit out of my league to criticize people who clearly know those instruments better than I do... but if you go to a restaurant and order chichken parmigiana, and the cheese is so hard that it's tough to chew and you find a bone in the middle of it, do you need to actually know how to cook chicken parmigiana yourself in order to complain?

They play/sing/scream/write lyrics terrible?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. You're on a roll!

We've already addressed the playing. The singing and screaming (which I'll lump into the same category since both are the vocalist's job) sound ridiculous to me much of the time because Jon Micah knows a little bit too well how to imitate other nu-metal singers and has never really bothered to find his own style. When he's singing something mellower (such as the worship album, which was bland as all get-out, but at least he gave the velociraptor voice a rest for once), it doesn't bother me as much - he's a reasonably capable vocalist and I find no reason to complain. It's when he does that overused "constipated grunt" thing that all of the Creed-wannabe singers do that I start to get irked. The screaming is just ridiculous. I can understand screaming in a hard rock song, when you're aprticularly angry about something and it warrants to outburst. Jon Micah sounds like he's screaming just because kids'll think it sounds cool. There's no rhyme or reason to the particular lyrics that get screamed. It sounds particularly stupid when it's a worship song or something.

Their music just doesn't connect with you?

There's lots of music that I don't connect with or relate to or even understand, but that I still respect, so no.

You don't believe they present their music or the gospel well?

No, I don't, and this is usually the hardest part to explain. I think that they, among with many other CCM bands, are taking a message that is true and oversimplifying it into catch phrases and cliches that are misleading to non-Christians, and that people who are already Christians don't really have to think about. We Christians have pretty much developed our own sort of code that we tend to speak in, and we all understand each other, but the words get used so much that we forget what the purpose behind those words really is. We talk about praise and worship all the time - put those buzzwords in a song and suddenly it makes people feel all warm and fuzzy and holy - but are we really worshiping, or just writing songs so that we can feel good because we're singing about worshiping? And what about how we address the rest of the world? Do we describe everything in superficially black-and-white terms, and attempt to win our arguments simply by bludgeoning the opposition over the head with our loud rallying cries? Is evangelism a sporting event, or something that happens through actual relationships and the complicated task of walking alongside a person who doesn't know Christ and demonstrating grace and being open about our own complex, messy sins?

The best Christian songwriters try to touch on some of these things. The rest just spew forth the same old catch phrases that we already know how to digest, figuring that if you repeat something enough, somebody'll eventually believe you. And we pat ourselves on the back for being so bold and preaching the Gospel to people, but really, we're mostly just preaching it to a choir that's already heard it. Christian kids'll drag friends to hear it, and some of 'em will even decide to become Christians as a result, but more often than not, it's because of the high of the experience, and not because they've really thought through the life change that they're committing to. Then a lot of these people either give up on the faith when things get much more complicated without warning (as they always do, because Jesus never said following Him was going to be easy), or they refuse to wrestle with the deeper questions because they think everything should be as cut-and-dry as the words of the superficial Christian band whose concert they got saved at.

Look, I have no doubt that these people are genuinely getting saved and that we'll all see each other in heaven one day. It's all good. My problem is that this sort of thinking is creating a Church that is positively hemorrhanging with knee-jerk-reacting baby Christians who never seem to grow very much. Why should they need to, when Christian pop culture teaches them that everything's as simple as A-B-C? Just get saved, then save as many other people as you can, that's it. That's what the Christian life gets reduced to by a lot of the American church, actually. Is that all Kutless's fault? No, but they're one of the more obstinate contributors.

For further explanation, I present the following:

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

Exhibit D

I also would like to know why you think what you do, to gain a better understanding of why you say the things that you do about them (because I've noticed, you guys do it frequently).

Well, I'm glad that you seek to understand the opposing viewpoint - that's a refreshing change from the usual response that I tend to get from Kutless fans. They generally resort to personal attacks, which often involve calling into question whether I'm actually a real Christian to begin with.

Also, I wonder do you guys think it's good to constantly use someone as an example of something you really don't like......when after all, God is using them to impact people's lives for His glory daily? Would you want people doing it to you?

I probably wouldn't keep using them as an example if I didn't have to write reviews of other mediocre rock albums that bring the comparison to mind. If I reviewed more irritatingly bland pop albums instead of rock albums, I'd probably bring up FFH a lot.

As for God using them to impact lives for His glory... see my above explanation. As I said, I don't doubt that people are genuinely getting saved. That doesn't give them carte blanche to give people a skewed perspective on what following Christ actually looks like.

I look at it this way. Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. I tend to think that a creative God who created us to have our own individual creative skills might get kind of offended when we ignore those gifts and instead try really hard to look or sound like copies of other people just because someone will think we're cool. Do something that shows a little imagination. I think that glorifies God.

Would I want people doing it to me? Yes, absolutely. If I were demonstrating that much thoughtlessness in the name of Jesus Christ, I would sincerely hope that someone would call me on it. And if I refused to listen, I'd expect to be soundly ridiculed for it - I'd hope that other Christians had the good sense to make it clear to the world that Jesus didn't intend for us to be mindless minions. I'd hate for other Christians to think that being like Jesus meant spewing forth the same idiocy that I was.

Do you think Jesus would approve of how you use them as examples? I never said, don't use them as an example if that's your opinion, but how far is too far and how much is too much?

There have been times when I've crossed the line just because I saw the opportunity to make somebody laugh, and couldn't resist. I have to ask myself on a regular basis where that line is, and I'm not saying I've been perfect at not crossing it. I'm sure God has some work to do there. At the same time, I think it's fair to be able to criticize what other Christians are doing when I do genuinely think it damages the reputation of Christianity. I don't think the guys in the band are mindless idiots or anything. I'm sure they're nice, well-meaning people. I think they've unfortunately been pressured by Christian subculture to not use the minds that God gave them very well. I can admire their good intentions; I just think their methods are all wrong. For all I know, their talents may be better suited in a different style of music - or in a format different from music altogether. (I honestly think that a lot of Christian musicians would be better off as speakers, because they don't pay much attention to the fact that music is an art form.)

Also, if you don't like someone or their style of music WHY continue talking about them...why not forget about them? And saying 'because it was so bad' is not really a valid answer.

Alright, you beat me to the punch on that one. But they are pretty memorably bad. It's tough to forget a song like "Tonight".

Seriously, though, what you're asking me to do here is to just turn a blind eye, to pretend it's not happening. I think it would be irresponsible to do that. I can turn a blind eye to bland, unimaginative music being made in the mainstream. But when it's done in the name of od, it tends to raise my ire.

Also, while this isn't the case with Kutless, I do get sent CDs in the mail, free of charge, by certain Christian record labels, with the hope that I would review them.

Besides, it's fun!

*Not all people who listen to Kutless, don't know how to spell correctly.

There's an exception to every stereotype, I suppose. I just find it inherently funny that the band themselves made spelling mistakes in the liner notes of a best-selling album.

Now, if I may ask a curious question of my own - how'd you find us? Have you been lurking for a while and decided that now was a good time to speak up and defend a band you liked, or did you stumble across us just now through a Google search? Just wondering, because this board seems obscure enough and I don't think people are going to scour the Internet for divad23's extremely wordy explanations of his opinions on CCM also-ran bands.

NP: "Wonder", Delirious?

[spacebrat311]

I knew I could get away with giving the short answer I did, because I knew Murlough would eventually say what I wanted to in much more depth than I would have the patience to, and probably much more eloquently than I could. Thank you Murlough.

[murlough23]

I knew I could get away with giving the short answer I did, because I knew Murlough would eventually say what I wanted to in much more depth than I would have the patience to, and probably much more eloquently than I could. Thank you Murlough.

Your welcome. 

[spacebrat311]

Your welcome. 

You're. 


You've got to admit, it was only fair.

[murlough23]

You're. 


You've got to admit, it was only fair.

That was intentional, hence the wink.

NP: "I'm Gonna DJ", R.E.M.

[spacebrat311]

Haha, fair enough.

[bloop]

I think I'm more in the "forget about them" camp when it comes to Kutless.  I don't see the appeal in much the same way as I don't get the appeal of the Nickelbacks of the mainstream world, so I just don't waste my time on them much.  I should more often because so much of what I digest is B or A level material, just to use more of my rating system on a semi-regular basis.

But, when it comes right down to it, it's just hard to carve out much time for it when there really is so much worthwhile where my time will be better-spent.

[murlough23]

I think I'm more in the "forget about them" camp when it comes to Kutless.  I don't see the appeal in much the same way as I don't get the appeal of the Nickelbacks of the mainstream world, so I just don't waste my time on them much.  I should more often because so much of what I digest is B or A level material, just to use more of my rating system on a semi-regular basis.

Yeah, I feel bored with the same old four-star reviews after a while. Fives are hard to come by, so it's fun to have the occasional one or two.

But, when it comes right down to it, it's just hard to carve out much time for it when there really is so much worthwhile where my time will be better-spent.

I've stopped watching a lot of the artists I used to watch for this reason, but I keep some of the true bottom-of-the-barrel ones on the watch list. It's not really much fun to bash some no-name artist who put out a boring album that just fades into the background, because hardly anyone will have heard of them anyway. But some artists almost attain a position of reverence for how outrageously bad their music is - usually the ones that make asses out of themselves by trying to sound cool, rather than the ones who are just plain faceless and indistinguishable. They're fun to keep track of for that reason.

Besides, let's say that due to some freak alignment of the solar system or whatever, Kutless actually puts out a halfway decent album, and I don't know about it. I can't very well continue to bash them if what I'm saying about them isn't actually true. After all, some of my favorite bands started out with really bad albums, and I wouldn't have wanted people to continue assuming they were that way.

NP: "Rise Against", P.O.D.

[bloop]

Yeah, but the problem with the bad ones is that when I review them, it just feels like I'm piling-on, and I don't really get bored with listening to good to excellent recordings (even if I think it doesn't give my music journal much contrast).

[ajyouthguy]

apparently Kutless is doing some kind of acoustic tour right now and are gonna be about 45 minutes away in a little over a week.  it sounds very weird to hear/think about that they are touring doing their junk acoustically. but  i'm definitely not going although it seems like i keep getting stuff about it from various sources, ie, mail, email, facebook, etc.  fortunately, none of it has come from my students and i haven't had a single kid in my youth group mention it, and i don't think i have a single one who would be interested anyways...i knew i was a good youth minister in some ways at least...

[murlough23]

apparently Kutless is doing some kind of acoustic tour right now and are gonna be about 45 minutes away in a little over a week.

Acoustic tour? Awesome. The velociraptor screams are going to sound even more retarded in that context.

it sounds very weird to hear/think about that they are touring doing their junk acoustically. but  i'm definitely not going although it seems like i keep getting stuff about it from various sources, ie, mail, email, facebook, etc.  fortunately, none of it has come from my students and i haven't had a single kid in my youth group mention it, and i don't think i have a single one who would be interested anyways...i knew i was a good youth minister in some ways at least...

See, you're actually an attentive youth pastor; I think too many just figure whatever keeps the kids occupied and not listening to those evil secular bands must be good enough.

I think I may have inadvertently driven off a potential member of our church's college group by ragging on Kutless within earshot of a fan. I felt pretty silly when he asked me what I didn't like about them, and I explained, "Only that they're the most uncreative and thoughtless Christian band in existence", only for his follow-up to be why I got to wear a special nametag that said "College group advisor" on it. I quickly backpedaled with a remark that the views being expressed were not necessarily the opinions of the church. I think it was too late at that point... Sometimes I fail to realize the need to restrain myself.

[murlough23]

Yeah, but the problem with the bad ones is that when I review them, it just feels like I'm piling-on, and I don't really get bored with listening to good to excellent recordings (even if I think it doesn't give my music journal much contrast).

I don't get bored with listening to good music; just with only reviewing the good stuff after a while. It's like that critic said in Ratatouille; negative criticism is fun to write.

[ajyouthguy]

See, you're actually an attentive youth pastor; I think too many just figure whatever keeps the kids occupied and not listening to those evil secular bands must be good enough.

i usually play a lot of stuff before and after and some during youth group, that they don't know what it is, but it's b/c i'm trying to expand their horizons, etc, instead of playing what is 'safe' and 'normal' for youth groups and such to play.  half of the time, nobody in my youth group even knows what the music is, but it's b/c i'm trying to introduce them to new (and very good) music of different styles, etc. 

[murlough23]

i usually play a lot of stuff before and after and some during youth group, that they don't know what it is, but it's b/c i'm trying to expand their horizons, etc, instead of playing what is 'safe' and 'normal' for youth groups and such to play.  half of the time, nobody in my youth group even knows what the music is, but it's b/c i'm trying to introduce them to new (and very good) music of different styles, etc. 

Does it actually work, in terms of them picking up the ball and checking out some of that music on your own? And do you ever get criticized for it?

[ajyouthguy]

Does it actually work, in terms of them picking up the ball and checking out some of that music on your own? And do you ever get criticized for it?

does it work?  yes, absolutely.  over the past 10 years, i've probably led kids to buying/having bought for them well over 100 cd's, probably in the several hundreds, and it's VERY cool when they come up to me later and say 'you know that band you were playing, i went and checked them out, and i really like them, etc.'

do i ever get criticized for it?  i'm assuming you mean b/c it's 'outside the box' a little for youth ministry (especially a southern baptist church in rural arkansas, haha), but the answer is no.  i am pretty much allowed to (within reason) do my own thing with the youth ministry, which has been a freedom i, one, don't take for granted, and two, have come to be extreeeeeemely thankful for given what i see/hear elsewhere.  heck, i even, gasp, use secular music and secular videos (most recently yael naim's 'new soul,' but also everything from the more obvious ones like U2, Creed or Collective Soul to Bon Jovi to Poison to Linkin Park to Joan Osborne's "One of Us" and more.  i use good judgment, obviously, but i love using stuff like that b/c i know they will connect with it more than with the 'typical' stuff of youth ministry.  i use a lot of music, music videos, movie clips (definitely not Christian movies in 90+% of the cases), tv show clips, and whatever else i think is relevant or applicable to help pound home the message.

[murlough23]

That's awesome to hear, AJ. I've always believed that if you feed young people good music, they'll eat it up just like they often do with the retarded music that most of the world feeds them, and that influence will stick with them into adulthood. I've just never had a chance to see it in practice. What you've said here gives me hope. Keep up the good work.

[bloop]

heh - my students, on the rare occasion I play them my music, seem to experience it as torture rather than try to seek it out.

[NewDimension]

First of all, your claim that God is using Kutless to impact people's lives is pretty questionable.  I have never heard of anyone who was personally impacted by Kutless's lyrics, or their music.  Most of Kutless's fans are youth group teens who listen because it's the some of the only "edgy" Christian rock they know of.

Since you say I'm "claiming" that God has used Kutless to impact people's lives and that it's questionable, and that you've never heard of anyone who was personally impacted by Kutless's lyrics or their music, I've got a newsflash: you have now. Congradulations, you've crossed my path!!!!! My life, is a testimony that God has used Kutless to impact someone's life for His glory.
May I clarify again, GOD impacted my life through them. In fact, I use to, let's say, strongly dislike listening to their music, to the point I got annoyed everytimed I heard their songs/music videos/etc...and thought to myself when I bought compilation cd's that they happened to be on, "not these guys again"...."I wish they would have saved this space and put someone else on it"....literally I thought that.  The first song I heard from them was "Run"...and I didn't like it much....I loved the words, and their heart behind it, and I knew they wanted to please God and encourage others and help lead them to Him, but I really wasn't digging it vocally/musically/etc....but then again, I didn't like the "rock" sound that much back then.
About, at least 2 years later, I started liking their music...."started"....but what really drew me to their music wasn't so much that  I thought it was "edgy", (that's nice and all, and I like that to a point, but that just doesn't cut to the depths of the heart and deepen your relationship with Him, and help you grow in your walk with Him.) what really drew me to listening to their music, was the Spirit.....you've got to remember, I didn't particularly like their music before that. And by the way, I forgot to mention so much more about how I even started listening to them...but I'll save it....I will tell you one thing though....it wasn't by accident or something I perceived or expected.
Ever since then, God has done so much in/through/for my life using them. Where do I begin::::I've come to know God so much more than I ever have, more intimately and personally; He used them to help keep me from giving up the many times when I felt like it; replenished me strength; given me a deeper insight into His unconditional and unfailing love for us; shown me more that I'm authorized by Christ; instilled a passion in my heart for Him and others that is explosive; He's shown me so much and taught me so much that I can't really tell you all of it's depth; He's filled me with His Spirit again; and given me a new perspective; He's used them to inspire me to pray on a regular basis, for our brothers and sisters all over the world who are being brutally tortured and harshly persecuted; and challenged me to be willing to love Him and share His love at any cost; and not to take our freedom for granted; to dare to be more than we are; to discover who we really are in Him, and to not let the things of this world dictate who we should be, or to accept what others have labeled us; not to compromise with sin; to no longer make our resort in the outer court, but to desire to live in the Holy of Holies every moment of our lives, and to do it in His grace and through His power and might; and to break the cycle; etc...etc....etc...etc...etc.......this list goes on and on.....if only I could tell you guys EVERYTHING that God has done in my life through them. What I listed, just barely scratched the surface....you guys probably wouldn't want to hear much more about it anyhow... I really do wish you guys knew how much God has used them to impact my life...its more than I even know....If you do want to know any further detail about what He has done in my life through them, just ask me about one of their songs. It doesn't really matter to me if you guys think their music is horrible...God really has changed me life and used them majorly in the process. He's still changing my life, and yours.....it's so cool what He does... Sometimes I ask myself why He uses them in my life so much. You never know, maybe someday He'll use them in your life......don't be surprized.

[NewDimension]

Guess what?? God actually touched my heart through reading some of this stuff. And, I couldn't help but smile reading this thread...

A guy has to do what he can to preserve the English language.

Indeed.

I'm not going to shell out a lot of money for something I don't enjoy listening to.

Neither am I.

We've already addressed the playing. The singing and screaming (which I'll lump into the same category since both are the vocalist's job) sound ridiculous to me much of the time because Jon Micah knows a little bit too well how to imitate other nu-metal singers and has never really bothered to find his own style. When he's singing something mellower (such as the worship album, which was bland as all get-out, but at least he gave the velociraptor voice a rest for once), it doesn't bother me as much - he's a reasonably capable vocalist and I find no reason to complain. It's when he does that overused "constipated grunt" thing that all of the Creed-wannabe singers do that I start to get irked. The screaming is just ridiculous. I can understand screaming in a hard rock song, when you're aprticularly angry about something and it warrants to outburst. Jon Micah sounds like he's screaming just because kids'll think it sounds cool. There's no rhyme or reason to the particular lyrics that get screamed. It sounds particularly stupid when it's a worship song or something.

How do you suggest people find their own style when imitating others is popular? I don't like all the screaming either...from any band... I believe it can be placed in certain songs succesfully, but it depends on the words being screamed, how often their screamed, and what the intention for using them in the song is, and if there's any emotion in doing it....like you said if it's just to be cool, then I don't want to hear it, if it's something from the heart then that can be different, as long as it's not misplaced and overused.
Do you know of any worship song that lyrics are getting screamed in?

I love your phrase of: velociraptor voice....

No, I don't, and this is usually the hardest part to explain. I think that they, among with many other CCM bands, are taking a message that is true and oversimplifying it into catch phrases and cliches that are misleading to non-Christians, and that people who are already Christians don't really have to think about. We Christians have pretty much developed our own sort of code that we tend to speak in, and we all understand each other, but the words get used so much that we forget what the purpose behind those words really is. We talk about praise and worship all the time - put those buzzwords in a song and suddenly it makes people feel all warm and fuzzy and holy - but are we really worshiping, or just writing songs so that we can feel good because we're singing about worshiping? And what about how we address the rest of the world? Do we describe everything in superficially black-and-white terms, and attempt to win our arguments simply by bludgeoning the opposition over the head with our loud rallying cries? Is evangelism a sporting event, or something that happens through actual relationships and the complicated task of walking alongside a person who doesn't know Christ and demonstrating grace and being open about our own complex, messy sins?

I also believe there should be more discipleship, less force-feeding, etc....
 How would you say they and other modern Christian bands and songwriters should address non-Christians? How should they address Christians? How do you think people should evangilize espeecially in the music industry?

The best Christian songwriters try to touch on some of these things. The rest just spew forth the same old catch phrases that we already know how to digest, figuring that if you repeat something enough, somebody'll eventually believe you. And we pat ourselves on the back for being so bold and preaching the Gospel to people, but really, we're mostly just preaching it to a choir that's already heard it. Christian kids'll drag friends to hear it, and some of 'em will even decide to become Christians as a result, but more often than not, it's because of the high of the experience, and not because they've really thought through the life change that they're committing to. Then a lot of these people either give up on the faith when things get much more complicated without warning (as they always do, because Jesus never said following Him was going to be easy), or they refuse to wrestle with the deeper questions because they think everything should be as cut-and-dry as the words of the superficial Christian band whose concert they got saved at.

Good stuff.....What are some of the things most songwriters should touch more on? What needs to be digested???

Look, I have no doubt that these people are genuinely getting saved and that we'll all see each other in heaven one day. It's all good. My problem is that this sort of thinking is creating a Church that is positively hemorrhanging with knee-jerk-reacting baby Christians who never seem to grow very much. Why should they need to, when Christian pop culture teaches them that everything's as simple as A-B-C? Just get saved, then save as many other people as you can, that's it. That's what the Christian life gets reduced to by a lot of the American church, actually. Is that all Kutless's fault? No, but they're one of the more obstinate contributors.

And their contributors because....they use lyrics that seem to be transfered into catch phrases? Is that how their contributing? I looked at the links you posted, and am still wondering how they are specifically contributors? Can you please elaborate a little more?

Well, I'm glad that you seek to understand the opposing viewpoint - that's a refreshing change from the usual response that I tend to get from Kutless fans. They generally resort to personal attacks, which often involve calling into question whether I'm actually a real Christian to begin with.

I don't doubt your a Christian.....especially by some things you've written. And if people use personal attacks, that's just a sign their not in the Spriit at the time, or/and they just started a conversation for all the wrong reasons, or they like the band for all the wrong reasons...etc...don't sink down to their level, if they go that far.

I look at it this way. Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. I tend to think that a creative God who created us to have our own individual creative skills might get kind of offended when we ignore those gifts and instead try really hard to look or sound like copies of other people just because someone will think we're cool. Do something that shows a little imagination. I think that glorifies God.

You know, I just love that whole paragraph....actually, it kind of reminds me of their song "Beyond the Surface" "open up your mind release yourself."

You guys say they are really unoriginal and creative, what would make them more original and creative?

Now, if I may ask a curious question of my own - how'd you find us? Have you been lurking for a while and decided that now was a good time to speak up and defend a band you liked, or did you stumble across us just now through a Google search? Just wondering, because this board seems obscure enough and I don't think people are going to scour the Internet for divad23's extremely wordy explanations of his opinions on CCM also-ran bands.

NP: "Wonder", Delirious?

I just found out about this website.... maybe a week ago at the most... I did find you guys through Google and Kutless and some other message board I have no clue what the name is, I forgot....I was Googling things about Kutless, and came upon some Christian music message board....I forgot which one...and they had a link to this website.....and I found this website to be very interesting.....concerning many different topics,  and I also like a lot of things you guys say on this website, (yes, usually apart from what you say about Kutless)....and I LOVE talking about GOD....and I love talking to other people who are Christians....and maybe God can use me some way on this website...maybe I can learn something I don't know....etc....Really, I wasn't planning on talking about Kutless, until you guys brought them up....even though I didn't totally agree with everything you all said about them prior. And, I'm not just defending the band, when people constantly criticize others who God has used to touch your life in amazing and powerful ways, it does kind of hit you......now like I said, there's a difference between giving an example and going overboard with an example. And really, more people should know about this website....

[NewDimension]

Besides, let's say that due to some freak alignment of the solar system or whatever, Kutless actually puts out a halfway decent album, and I don't know about it. I can't very well continue to bash them if what I'm saying about them isn't actually true. After all, some of my favorite bands started out with really bad albums, and I wouldn't have wanted people to continue assuming they were that way.

NP: "Rise Against", P.O.D.

Speaking of albums, I'll love to hear your up-coming review of Kutless's new album that's due to come out, in I think the end of June, entitled "To Know That You're Alive"......you might like it....and you might dread it.... the Lord give you wisdom on your review either way.

[Aaron]

Kutless would have to drastically improve in all facets of their game for that to happen.  Like Pillar, Kutless suffers from a lead singer who has the gift of terrible songwriting skills.

[murlough23]

heh - my students, on the rare occasion I play them my music, seem to experience it as torture rather than try to seek it out.

Well, that's because some of it is. 

[murlough23]

Since you say I'm "claiming" that God has used Kutless to impact people's lives and that it's questionable, and that you've never heard of anyone who was personally impacted by Kutless's lyrics or their music, I've got a newsflash: you have now. Congradulations, you've crossed my path!!!!! My life, is a testimony that God has used Kutless to impact someone's life for His glory.

I see how "Run" affected you (and it's one of their few songs that I can actually tolerate - it's basic, but it gets the job done, even though it makes God sound like He's all lonely 'cause you won't hang out with Him, which kind of makes me chuckle), but beyond that, you're kind of vague. I think their are certain Kutless songs that do an OK job of illustrating some basic concepts of the Christian life. So I can see how you may have been growing in certain ways that related to the lyrics of those songs, but I don't think it was the songs themselves that really changed you. They were just the soundtrack. And that's not a bad thing, but let's not overstate the case here. Honestly, did anything that Kutless have to say turn out to be something you were learning for the first time?

Also, it's easy to confuse an emotional response to a song with "the Spirit" or being "blessed". Sometimes things which make us feel all warm and fuzzy also make us feel complacent and comfortable. So we have to be careful about assuming that God did something, when occasionally it might be the other guy.

[bloop]

Well, that's because some of it is. 

Well, I try to play them things that aren't so alien to them, but that aren't necessarily things they would hear on the radio, either.  They still think it's weird and different, I think just because they aren't hits, basically.

So, no, I don't break out the modal foreign pieces with cat-death vocals or anything, well, unless I'm being playful.

[murlough23]

How do you suggest people find their own style when imitating others is popular?

Well, it's not like I have a simple set of instructions for it. God's gifted every person in unique ways, but too often we're afraid to be ourselves because of what culture tells us we need to do to fit in.

And it's inevitable that to some degree, you're going to be influenced and inspired by what others have done - there is no music out there that is truly, 100% original. I just think there's a clear line between being influenced by someone, and ripping them off. Particularly when Christian artists act like it's perfectly OK to steal from a mainstream artist because they're "redeeming" the music or something. Plagiarism's still plagiarism. And it's a bit of an insult to say you learned a lot of what you know, musically speaking, from artists that you're now encouraging people not to listen to. I just think God's children should treat each other (including the ones still lost) with a lot more respect than that.

Do you know of any worship song that lyrics are getting screamed in?

"Tonight" and "Your Touch" are good examples. They may not be congregational worship songs in the sense that the songs on Strong Tower are, but the message there is clearly, "God did something good and I'm praising Him for it", so it just doesn't fit. "Somewhere in the Sky" is also a very positive song in which it just doesn't make sense for him to scream like that (it's even more hilariously out of place in the acoustic version). In a song like "Treason" (which I genuinely do like, despite it being a ripoff of a Live song), the screaming makes a little more sense, even though the way it's done is still a bit awkward.

How would you say they and other modern Christian bands and songwriters should address non-Christians?

Like they're actually intelligent people, for starters. We like to pat ourselves on the back for being bold enough to be blatant about our faith in music that crosses over to the mainstream world... but what's the message that's really coming across? If we're just offering the same old Christian catchphrases, then trust me, they've heard that before. Maybe it's different if you're talking about some unreached culture in a far-flung corner of the world who has genuinely never heard the Gospel, but those people probably don't have radio stations, or at least not English ones. In Western, English-speaking culture, people have heard, and they've observed a disconnect between what Christians have told them is the right way to act, and the way they actually act. So what they need to see is Christians who are honest about not having all the answers, who appreciate that there are grey areas that one has to wrestle with, who won't talk down to them because they admit that life is complicated and I'm as much of a messed-up sinner as you. And they need to see God and Jesus expressed creatively. They need to hear Christians singing about stuff that actually happens to normal people in life - people who date and break up and have babies and work 9-5 and get into arguments with people they love and get laid off and go on trips to beautiful places that God made, and how their faith influences that, rather than this detached, didactic mumbo-jumbo that honestly doesn't make much sense to them.

In other words, less tell, more show. If Jesus really permeates every little aspect of our human lives, let's act that out instead of just talking up how holy we can act.

How should they address Christians?

Similarly. I think there's a definite need for music that is made by the Church, for the Church. But the Church also has a need for music that expresses the wonder and mystery and hard-to-answer questions about God and the Christian life, in terms that we have to think about a bit to fully get a handle on. Music made for Christians needs to challenge them to grow, instead of regurgitating what they already know.

What ticks me off is that we keep making music that's really for the Church, and we pat ourselves on the back for how evangelistic we're being. Why don't we come clean and just admit that we're just making what will sell to the highest number of Christians, who can in turn feel good about themselves for buying "evangelistic" music?

How do you think people should evangilize espeecially in the music industry?

I think the way they live their lives should be the evangelism part. Befriend people, come beside them and understand their struggles, show them grace. Music is art, and music is entertainment, and music forms an emotional connection with people. It's a powerful tool, but don't use it to make pithy three-minute commercials for God. People see right through that stuff and feel like it's just propaganda. At least, intelligent people do. Sing about something that's beautiful simply because it is. Sing about an injustice that God hates. There are just so many nooks and crannies of life to explore, that different people will relate to in different ways, even if some of those people hate Jesus because of what Christians have done to them in the past. Love those people, build bridges with them. Make it clear that you're a Christian and you love the Lord when asked, but don't have an agenda. people will head for the hills if they feel like you're trying to make them believe something. Just express what you've experienced and let them connect the dots - you've planted a seed. Others may water it down the line. You don't have to be the one to do everything. Evangelism is God's job.

What are some of the things most songwriters should touch more on? What needs to be digested???

I'd really like to hear more Christian music that challenges the church. Not music that guilt trips them about not praying and reading their Bible enough, but music that is confessional, or that explores difficult topics/debates that the Church is having. Don't be afraid to ask questions that you can't answer. Get a dialogue going. Get people exercising their brains. Get people asking questions that only God can answer for them. You don't have to hand-hold every step of the way. They're smart people. They shouldn't be afraid of not understanding every single lyric or being presented with a musical style or technique that is unusual to them. (I realize that a lot of them are, but the more we can teach them to not be afraid and assume that everything that's "weird" or difficult to understand is a tool of the devil, the better off the Church wil be.)

And their contributors because....they use lyrics that seem to be transfered into catch phrases? Is that how their contributing? I looked at the links you posted, and am still wondering how they are specifically contributors? Can you please elaborate a little more?

They just keep spewing forth many of those same catch phrases, so they're just adding to the problem of banal songwriting that doesn't cause Christians to think. Some of it has spurred some thought. You gave evidence of that with "Run". One example I'd cite is "Hearts of the Innocent", which I think is a well-written song (by their standards, anyway) because of how it pleads the case of someone who can't defend themselves. It's a song that says, "You can't not care". I'd like to hear more of that and less of the same old, same old that 99% of Christian music has already covered ad nauseum.

And if people use personal attacks, that's just a sign their not in the Spriit at the time, or/and they just started a conversation for all the wrong reasons, or they like the band for all the wrong reasons...etc...don't sink down to their level, if they go that far.

I try, but it is a challenge.

How can one ever say with certainty that one is in the Spirit, anyway? Seems kind of presumptuous to act like my words are the words of God.

You know, I just love that whole paragraph....actually, it kind of reminds me of their song "Beyond the Surface" "open up your mind release yourself."

Well, yeah, but that song is so vague about the whole thing... it tells us we need to go deeper, but there's really not much of an explanation as to why, or what it will accomplish. So we've established that we need to not be superficial. DUH.

You guys say they are really unoriginal and creative, what would make them more original and creative?

Increasing their vocabulary, for one. I'm not talking about using a bunch of fifty-dollar dictionary words to impress people. I'm just talking about being less vague, writing something that is more specific and tells more of a story, rather than speaking in such huge generalities. I know why a lot of bands do this - they want to relate to the largest possible audience, so they dumb the lyrics down so that the situation could apply to nearly anyone. That'll make people feel warm and fuzzy, but I'm not convinced that it really affects them in a profound way. I think songwriters need to be less afraid to be specific, even if it comes at the expense of somebody in the audience not relating to a specific song.

I just found out about this website.... maybe a week ago at the most... I did find you guys through Google and Kutless and some other message board I have no clue what the name is, I forgot....I was Googling things about Kutless, and came upon some Christian music message board....I forgot which one...and they had a link to this website.....and I found this website to be very interesting.....concerning many different topics,  and I also like a lot of things you guys say on this website, (yes, usually apart from what you say about Kutless)....and I LOVE talking about GOD....and I love talking to other people who are Christians....and maybe God can use me some way on this website...maybe I can learn something I don't know....etc....

Well, I'm glad you found us; just keep in mind that we're not afraid to engage in difficult conversations around here, that sometimes turn into debates that get a little heated. You'll have to take some of it with a grain of salt. Sometimes we make that mistake. I'm still figuring out how to have intelligent conversations with other Christians without getting so easily frustrated with the myriad of different ideas that are out there, so sometimes I lash out when I really should know better. So I figure God must be using this to teach me something as well.

[ajyouthguy]

... but too often we're afraid to be ourselves because of what culture tells us we need to do to fit in.

by culture=GMA, K-Love/AIR1, Dove Awards, etc...