Kutless, and other questionable Christian bands

[spacebrat311]

I have been. It's like watching Nascar. You only really do it for the crashes.

[murlough23]

Yeah, I was not trying to sound all self-righteous saying that, quite the opposite. What I meant was, since we ARE so unrighteous apart from the righteousness of Christ, it truly is a treasure that we do actually get the opportunity to know Him, being that we are so unworthy altogether. I guess I'll just have to try to be more self-explanitory.

What I'm trying to impress upon you is the way that your language sounds to others. What you meant isn't totally irrelevant, but you're going to have a lot of difficulties if you continue to come across the way that you are, especially when dealing with non-Christians.

That's a pretty good ratio, as far as I'm concerned. Everyone here seems to take 85% to 95% of what I say out of context, you don't think that couldn't be at all infuriating?

It's not really a measurable quantity; we've both done about equal amounts of it, most likely.

I suppose that's one of the reasons this place intrigues me so much.

Apparently you're a masochist.

I didn't know what we were talking about at the time was some issue I was pressing at you. It's funny that no one else, with those claims, has commented about that issue yet. They probably never will, I guess.

They've probably got less patience for ramming their heads against brick walls than I do.

Sorry if I seem to present things in ways that seem that way, but I'm still learning how to present things better.

Please speed up the learning process.

If you know of any ways to present truths better, I would love to know.

I can't write every sentence for you. I've already given you enough of a general idea - don't get so caught up in all of the Christian jargon, and don't be condescending. People don't usually mean to be condescending, but I don't think they look at the things they're about to say from the perspective of the people who are going to hear those things.

And no, I'm not above all that, and I sure don't think I am. Can I be above that and am I above some things? Yes. I don't think I'm better than anyone by any means.

Great! Then stop the spiritual muscle-flexing in front of everyone.

That's bondage to live that way

I see, so you're into bondage and masochism. Now we just need sadism to complete the trifecta.

Can you please at least try to speak up how you did in this last sentence when you do?

No, because at that point it will likely already be too late. You know what not to do now.

If it concerns God about your spiritual growth, it should concern me whether you want me to be concerned or not, therefore I still am. If it wasn't for Him, I don't know if I'd be concerned about much of anything except with what could please me for the moment.

Then I would ask you to keep it to yourself. There are others around here that, if they think I'm being a dick, they can confront me about it, and I'll listen. Due to pride, I might fight it at first, but because certain people have earned my trust, I'll usually come around.

I have witty responses? Really? That much creativity? That was a joke right?

You manage it occasionally. I'm serious. I don't think you're completely devoid of a sense of humor or anything. You just have this weird way of responding very dryly to something that was intended to be a joke to lighten the mood, in a way that makes it seem like you didn't get the joke, except you did, but you still respond as if taking it seriously. It's just a bit weird.

Be careful with saying "it ain't gonna happen" because God really does like to surprise us when we least expect it.

Oy vey. You are so predictable.

Fine, then I'll rephrase it - don't try to make it happen.

You said earlier 'God is omnipresent', do you really think He can't use something like a message board in your life?

I never said that I didn't. God's used plenty of other (less self-righteous) people here to make me reconsider a lot of things. I just asked you to stop trying to be my friggin' savior already.

But when I am saying or doing something that isn't right, or doesn't come across to the other person the way it should have or was intended to, I'm not gonna just wait until I've known the person a long time to accept something they've said if indeed it could be beneficial to me, or if they've said that something I've said or did was wrong and it agrees with the Scripture.

There's something to be said for knowing the person and their circumstances before you can more accurately discern their intent and what they're doing right and wrong. I'll take what truths are offered when the other person's earned my respect. You haven't earned it. You've earned quite a bit of disrespect, actually.

True, not exactly my point, but at the same time for all you know, I could be someone who has been around a lot of Christians and have heard how they speak, or I could have grown up in the church and all the sayings have already been drilled in my brain and it takes no effort to speak them, or I could actually be finding theses words in the Bible, etc and just be saying them for various reasons.

And if that's the case and you've already been exposed to the worst of the cliches of Christian culture, somehow I don't think I'm gonna be the straw that broke the camel's back. So your hypothetical situation is still unconvincing.

And, I don't think everyone is necessarily a Christian because they like listening to Kutless's music. For all you know, I could be someone who's trying to get an inside perspective on what real Christianity actually is and what it really means to be a Christian.

Such a good actor would have likely given up by now, unless he had a lot of spare time on his hands and nothing better to do with it. I have to assume you're only still involved because you actually mean the things you say.

And if you do think I am a Christian, there could be someone who reads this thread who isn't a Christian. Do you think most people who aren't Christians who may view this thread would really want to become one, seeing our speech to one another, and how we are suppose to be Christians speaking?

The reason I'm being so hard on you is because I'm frankly quite pissed off about the way we come across to them half the time, and I try to nip that stuff in the bud whenever I come across it. Sorry if my methods are a little harsh. I've already realized that it's not gonna work in this case, anyway.

Let's be real. We're called to love one another and have unity, but sometimes there's going to be tension and disagreements. No, I haven't handled those in the best way here, but I really can't see a discussion like this being someone's solitary reason for saying "Thanks, but no thanks" to Christ.

So what bait might this be?

Just your uncanny ability to make me more annoyed even when you're trying to diffuse the argument. It's a talent that you're probably not even aware you have.

[spacebrat311]

They've probably got less patience for ramming their heads against brick walls than I do.

True story.

[murlough23]

Hmm, are we sure we're not using catchphrases and jargon here? Let's see, right from 1 Timothy 6:12. Are we taking this out of context? I love this passage, so I'm gonna quote it entirely: "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses." Now let's truly ponder this verse, and  not just repeat it without thinking about it.

Haha, you got me there. I didn't even realize "fight the good fight", as a catch-phrase, originated from the Bible. I mean, I've heard that verse before, and I just forgot it was stated that way. Good example of throwing around Christian jargon without really considering what it means.

That said, I do think it's worth hanging onto my conviction that we need to be more careful about speaking in an inflated, over-spiritualized tone to people. I think that paying closer attention to this will improve the way that we come across to non-Christians, so in that sense, it is a "good fight" worth fighting - not for the victory of winning an argument, but because we've got some bad thinking in the Church that needs to be thrown out.

[NewDimension]

What I'm trying to impress upon you is the way that your language sounds to others. What you meant isn't totally irrelevant, but you're going to have a lot of difficulties if you continue to come across the way that you are, especially when dealing with non-Christians.

Have you ever thought I could possibly talk differently to those who aren't Christians already? And I do. Now I shall attempt talking to Christians the way I would those who aren't Christians. This shall be exciting.......so let's not fall asleep.

It's not really a measurable quantity; we've both done about equal amounts of it, most likely.

Maybe, but it's like that scene in the Lion King where Simba's surrounded by all the hyenas, as well.

Apparently you're a masochist.

No, I'm not. I usually don't like getting involved in conversations that seem to generate elevated levels of aggresion. And, it's not punishment to think you might actually learn something new, at least not to me. I want to learn something new, I don't know the whole reason why, I just do.

They've probably got less patience for ramming their heads against brick walls than I do.

In their case, it's not a brick wall. It's just a matter of them simply providing the concrete evidence what they are saying is true. If there is a brick wall in their case, it's not one on my side, it's one where they can't find the evidence to support their claims and are therefore backing down on their claim. Sincerly, I still would like to see the evidence if there is any.

Please speed up the learning process.

I'd love to as well, so why don't you pray that I do.

I can't write every sentence for you. I've already given you enough of a general idea - don't get so caught up in all of the Christian jargon, and don't be condescending. People don't usually mean to be condescending, but I don't think they look at the things they're about to say from the perspective of the people who are going to hear those things.

I still don't have a vast understanding on what all this Christian jargon is.

Great! Then stop the spiritual muscle-flexing in front of everyone.

That's not what I was trying to do.

I see, so you're into bondage and masochism. Now we just need sadism to complete the trifecta.

No, I'm not into bondage or masochism or any of that. It's not bondage to have Scripture stuck in your head all the time or in your speech, in my case. The only reason I use it so much is because there is liberty in it. It can be bondage to others, if they just use it or whatever all the time as some type of "It's gonna make me good or better, so that's why I do it", or if they just use it without love then of course it's bondage. Sorry if it has seemed like that with how I've said things, but it's not like that, and I'll try to say things better. And it's not masochism to me, to be intrigued to see things different and learn something. 

Then I would ask you to keep it to yourself. There are others around here that, if they think I'm being a dick, they can confront me about it, and I'll listen. Due to pride, I might fight it at first, but because certain people have earned my trust, I'll usually come around.

You do realize if we always wait to listen to someone about something even if we don't know them much at all, that people could get hurt in the process of time when it doesn't need to come to that, and I'm sure you wouldn't want it to, and that's my whole reason for saying anything in the first place, right?

You manage it occasionally. I'm serious. I don't think you're completely devoid of a sense of humor or anything. You just have this weird way of responding very dryly to something that was intended to be a joke to lighten the mood, in a way that makes it seem like you didn't get the joke, except you did, but you still respond as if taking it seriously. It's just a bit weird.

Interesting.

Oy vey. You are so predictable.

Not entirely.

Fine, then I'll rephrase it - don't try to make it happen.

I wasn't trying to make it happen and I'm planning on it by any means. God always does things when we aren't trying to make them happen and He do things when we are, but usually not as much.

I never said that I didn't. God's used plenty of other (less self-righteous) people here to make me reconsider a lot of things. I just asked you to stop trying to be my friggin' savior already.

I'm not trying to be your saviour by any means. And I'm sorry if I sounded self-righteous, I wasn't trying to.

And if that's the case and you've already been exposed to the worst of the cliches of Christian culture, somehow I don't think I'm gonna be the straw that broke the camel's back. So your hypothetical situation is still unconvincing.

Convincing or not, the point is to watch our words no matter who hears them. And yeah, I need to also.

Such a good actor would have likely given up by now, unless he had a lot of spare time on his hands and nothing better to do with it. I have to assume you're only still involved because you actually mean the things you say.

Such a good actor would try to say things like they mean them. That's part of having a convincing role, it'll be hard for people not to believe they don't mean what they have said.

The reason I'm being so hard on you is because I'm frankly quite pissed off about the way we come across to them half the time, and I try to nip that stuff in the bud whenever I come across it. Sorry if my methods are a little harsh. I've already realized that it's not gonna work in this case, anyway.

What's not gonna work? Being harsh? At the beginning of that paragraph it actually sounded like you were implying that I could change the world.

Let's be real. We're called to love one another and have unity, but sometimes there's going to be tension and disagreements. No, I haven't handled those in the best way here, but I really can't see a discussion like this being someone's solitary reason for saying "Thanks, but no thanks" to Christ.

Who said anything about that being the solitary reason? Most times, people say 'Thanks, but no thanks" because they do see something continually going on that is wrong in Christianity where ever they look. One discussion in itsself may not be the whole reason someone is turned off from Christianity, but it certainly can be one of the multiple magnified reasons for it in their life. And I hope that is not what people see any further in this discussion. The thing is once the problem for the contention between Christians is detected, it should try to be resolved. And I believe that's being done thus far. It's that many Christians won't resolve their reasons for tension in ways that don't cause division any further. When we're called to love one another, it's not quite as much the issue of us never disagreeing or even getting in a heated conflict ever, what I think is more detrimental to a non-Christian or skeptic viewing that experience is that, the cycle continues and they never really see the true love of God working in us to be united again.

Just your uncanny ability to make me more annoyed even when you're trying to diffuse the argument. It's a talent that you're probably not even aware you have.

Really? Wow.

[NewDimension]

Haha, you got me there. I didn't even realize "fight the good fight", as a catch-phrase, originated from the Bible. I mean, I've heard that verse before, and I just forgot it was stated that way. Good example of throwing around Christian jargon without really considering what it means.

Has the student surpassed the teacher? Just kidding, that seems outrightly impossible at the moment.

That said, I do think it's worth hanging onto my conviction that we need to be more careful about speaking in an inflated, over-spiritualized tone to people. I think that paying closer attention to this will improve the way that we come across to non-Christians, so in that sense, it is a "good fight" worth fighting - not for the victory of winning an argument, but because we've got some bad thinking in the Church that needs to be thrown out.

Nice.