Relient K

[dgp11776]

From Matt Theissen's blog:

    "Dear Everyone That Pays Attention To Our Band,

    Hello. Hope everyone is doing well.

    We're doing well. Amongst other things.

    One of which is recording.
    We are not recording the next full length Relient K record, however we have tracked thirteen new original songs that will be going on an EP. We're calling it The Nashville Tennis EP. We know its a lot of songs for an EP. Whatever.

    As well as the EP, we're going to put out a B sides record. I'm not totally sure of how many tracks we're going to put on there, but we're aiming for 20+ for sure. As of right now, we're calling this The Bird And The Bee Sides.

    The two albums together are going form a new release also called The Bird And The Bee Sides. We're hoping to release it on the earlier side of the summer.

    In addition to this, we've got a bunch of other tricks up our sleeves. We just gotta run it all past the suits first. God bless 'em.

    Hopefully this gives all of you a little idea of what we're up to. I wish we had a little more confirmation on the details, but we'll clue you in when that happens.

    - Relient K

    Details.....

    The Nashville Tennis EP

    I'm really excited to release this EP. We're recording it with Mark Lee Townsend (MMHMM/Deathbed) and JR McNeely (Underoath/Anberlin) is going to do the mixes.

    We're calling it The Nashville Tennis EP because there's a bit of a alt country flare to some of the tunes, and because a lot of the songs have ties to the city of Nashville, TN.

    One of the cool things about the EP is that its going to have the feel of two separate EPs. Seven of the songs are rock and roll tunes complete with some fun curveballs. The other six lean more towards our acoustic side. I can't wait to finish it. Matt Hoopes, Jon Schneck, John Warne, and Ethan Luck have all written songs and are singing lead on them. I'm really happy with the results. You will be too.

    The Bird And The Bee Sides

    This album is pretty predictable. We're compiling a lot of remixed/remastered songs that did not appear on our five full length releases. Anything from the acoustic version of Up And Up to the demo of Sadie Hawkins Dance (my voice cracks really bad on it... pretty funny/stupid). It will contain a bunch of songs from The Vinyl Countdown, The Employee Of The Month EP, The Creepy EP, and a ton of other stuff that you can't even find on the internet. At least not yet.

    We'll post track listings and all the other good stuff when they're done. Just thought it'd be nice to give everyone a heads up."

[murlough23]

That's silly. Thirteen new songs constitutes an album in my book (unless they're all like a minute and a half long or something). But I ain't complaining.

[Ian]

I actually am more excited for a RK B-Side disc than I would be a new LP, just because they've been taking themselves so seriously lately, which doesn't work well at all.  Maybe with a B-Sides they'll be more willing to throw in random stuff that made some of their earlier material enjoyable.

[murlough23]

I actually am more excited for a RK B-Side disc than I would be a new LP, just because they've been taking themselves so seriously lately, which doesn't work well at all.  Maybe with a B-Sides they'll be more willing to throw in random stuff that made some of their earlier material enjoyable.

Hmmm. Somehow I can't see songs like "Faking My Own Suicide", "Crayons Can Melt on Us for All I Care", or even "Must Have Done Something Right" coming from a band that is dead serious. Sure, I miss some of their more directly humorous songs like "Mood Ring" or "Gibberish", but I don't think we should confuse artistic growth with pretention or a lack of humor. It's still there in the witty quips in a lot of their songs. They're capable of writing some "serious" songs that are incredibly striking, but they'd be one of the last bands on Earth that I'd ever accuse of taking themselves too seriously.

[spacebrat311]

I'm with Ian here. It's not that I think they take themselves completely seriously now, it's just that I disagree that they have any truly interesting songs that are serious, and therefore, to me, any move towards seriousness is unwelcome from them.

[dgp11776]

Let me plant myself pretty firmly in the Murlough camp on this one.

[murlough23]

I'm with Ian here. It's not that I think they take themselves completely seriously now, it's just that I disagree that they have any truly interesting songs that are serious, and therefore, to me, any move towards seriousness is unwelcome from them.

I suppose "interesting" is highly subjective, so there's no winning that debate, but I think they've got a number of well-written "serious" songs that date as far back as their second album. (The first one was mostly silly, even when they were trying to make a point, and I can barely stand to listen to that CD any more, even if I do appreciate a handful of songs where the humor actually works.)

I don't know, it just seems like a bit of an insult to tell a band who as matured so much in their writing and their approach to making music over the past few years, while retaining their knack for wit and wordplay, that they're only worth listening to when they're not trying to say anything meaningful.

[spacebrat311]

I suppose "interesting" is highly subjective, so there's no winning that debate.

True.

I don't know, it just seems like a bit of an insult to tell a band who as matured so much in their writing and their approach to making music over the past few years, while retaining their knack for wit and wordplay, that they're only worth listening to when they're not trying to say anything meaningful.

And true, if one was to agree with the premise that they have matured. But I really just don't see it.

[murlough23]

True.And true, if one was to agree with the premise that they have matured. But I really just don't see it.

Seriously? You could listen to their first record and their latest and hear no evolution in musical style, and no improvement in their ability to address such things as personal struggles with sin and relationship difficulties, etc., in more thoughtful ways?

I mean, even if you think they suck now, you've gotta least admit it's a vast improvement over their first album.

[spacebrat311]

Fair enough. Part of my statement comes from the fact that I think that the first album is horrendous enough that, when I think of Relient K albums, the first one that usually pops into my head chronologically is The Anatomy of the Tongue in Cheek because of some weird sort of memory blockage. Incidentally, I would also probably rank Anatomy as their best album.

Also, its not so much a matter of thinking that they don't handle those subjects better now, as it is of thinking that they still handle them very badly, but since they take them on more now it leads to a decline in the quality of their overall output.

[murlough23]

Fair enough. Part of my statement comes from the fact that I think that the first album is horrendous enough that, when I think of Relient K albums, the first one that usually pops into my head chronologically is The Anatomy of the Tongue in Cheek. Which, incidentally, I would also probably rank as their best album.

Aside from their first album, I'd give all of their "main albums" 4-star ratings. Mmhmm is my personal favorite, but I think it totally makes sense for you to prefer Anatomy; it's a darn good album.

My main problem with Anatomy, though, is that a few of the songs come across as pretty judgmental. They had a knack for wit back then, but hadn't yet learned how to temper it with tact. I'll admit to being amused by "What Have You Been Doing Lately?" because of the swingy attitude, but the lyrics are kind of horrendous. "My Way or the Highway" just really bugs me; it always has. I haven't seen stuff like that on their later records - their songs certainly address sin and salvation, but it's more inwardly directed - Thiessen tends to examine himself instead of pointing out flaws in others. I think they've also improved in their ability to choose words - I get what they're saying in a line such as, "As long as there's a Heaven, there'll be a failure to ex-communicate", but it's a clunky delivery just for the sake of the pun. (I like puns; that one just took too much effort to set it up.) Compare that to a simple-sounding line that says a hell of a lot when you think about it, such as "You know I'll always love you, but right now I just don't like you."

Then translate all that to "Deathbed", which is a song that actually relates a very simple, blatantly Christian story of a man repenting and being saved from all of his sins, but that includes an astounding amount of detail (often wittily expressed, like the line about the father showing up with a shotgun or the marriage taking a "7-10 split", etc.) that describes how the guy got from A to B. Anyone can invent a stock character for the purpose of making a point - it takes insight and maturity to be observant and actually tell a story. There's humor in that song and there's also a great deal of emotional weight to it. Few bands can make me laugh and nearly cry within the same song.

Getting back to their other albums, my main problem with Two Lefts is that it's inconsistent. It's their one album that doesn't seem to flow really well, and the song ideas are more hit-and-miss than their other post-debut albums.

I think Mmhmm and Five Score outdo the albums before it, personally, but I do miss the presence of those songs that were just there to make you LOL. I mean, "Sadie Hawkins Dance" is still one of their best-loved songs, and that one's pure silliness. I don't think silliness is a bad thing, and if there's one area where I'd critique them or any other band who claims to have "matured", it's that you don't have to stop being funny to be mature. You just express the humor more cleverly. But at the same time, I respect them for finding subtle ways to work the puns and witticisms they come up with into some of their more meaningful songs.

NP: "Revenge", Jon Foreman

[spacebrat311]

My main problem with Anatomy, though, is that a few of the songs come across as pretty judgmental.

I'll definitely agree with that particular flaw.

[Ian]

Hmmm. Somehow I can't see songs like "Faking My Own Suicide", "Crayons Can Melt on Us for All I Care", or even "Must Have Done Something Right" coming from a band that is dead serious. Sure, I miss some of their more directly humorous songs like "Mood Ring" or "Gibberish", but I don't think we should confuse artistic growth with pretention or a lack of humor. It's still there in the witty quips in a lot of their songs. They're capable of writing some "serious" songs that are incredibly striking, but they'd be one of the last bands on Earth that I'd ever accuse of taking themselves too seriously.

Relient K has definitely matured artisticly (although 5 Score was a step down; don't confuse a polished sound with artistic growth ), and I'm in no way saying that's a bad thing.  It's just that I don't see why maturing requires that you lose your goofiness, which is the only thing that set Relient K apart from any other band to begin with.  With 5 Score, nearly every song was meant to be taken seriously.  In fact, I always saw Crayons as Relient K saying that their prior weirdness was a waste of time.

I would say that 2 Lefts is my favorite, because it really hits the mark as far as a balance between humor and seriousness.  Like you said, it doesn't flow the best, but I can look past that because Relient K are about seperate songs, not seamless albums, with which there is nothing wrong.  I'd put Anatomy and Mmhmm at around a tie.

[murlough23]

Relient K has definitely matured artisticly (although 5 Score was a step down; don't confuse a polished sound with artistic growth ), and I'm in no way saying that's a bad thing.

The "polish" comes from the increased use of piano and other instruments, and less reliance on the guitar - since there are still edgy songs like "I Need You", this doesn't really bother me. I like the contrast and think it helps set them apart from other pop-punk bands, since it's kind of a dime-a-dozen genre. That, and their ability to write songs with "sections" that don't stay in the same 4/4 beat with the same tempo or follow the expected verse/chorus structure all the time - but then, they've hinted at that ever since Anatomy.

I mean, I could pick up about a million records by struggling poppy punk bands who recorded their whole EP on a crap budget in their garage that would all sound the same... that's not what I want or expect from RK it's not like RK was ever all that gritty and unpolished anyway, so I don't think they should be told their record shouldn't sound like it was made in an actual studio. As entertaining as Anatomy was, they were essentially the Christian Blink 182 in those days... aside from the occasional mellow and highly polished song such as "For the Moments I Feel Faint" or "Less Is More".

It's just that I don't see why maturing requires that you lose your goofiness, which is the only thing that set Relient K apart from any other band to begin with.  With 5 Score, nearly every song was meant to be taken seriously.  In fact, I always saw Crayons as Relient K saying that their prior weirdness was a waste of time.

I don't think it says anything at all, other than being totally random and self-referential. (By the time the song's done telling you what it's gonna do, your time has already been wasted. That makes me chuckle.) I think you're reading way too much into a 10-second song if you see it as a denouncement of all of their past humorous material... though it could be a tongue-in-cheek jab at those who think their humorous joke tracks are a waste of time.

I also wouldn't take "Faking My Own Suicide" seriously... because seriously... that's messed up! (I didn't find the song all that funny, actually, but it was clear to me that it was supposed to be funny.)

While none of the other tracks on Five Score are "just kidding", I don't think that means that they're devoid of humor. "Must Have Done Something Right" means what it says, but says it in a pretty lighthearted, happy-go-lucky sort of way with sort of a humorous wink and a nod at the entire practice of writing a cliche love song. (It's not one of my favorite, either, but it is amusing, and that opening line about getting jerseys is awesome).

I would say that 2 Lefts is my favorite, because it really hits the mark as far as a balance between humor and seriousness.  Like you said, it doesn't flow the best, but I can look past that because Relient K are about seperate songs, not seamless albums, with which there is nothing wrong.

If you're going to make an album and present your songs in a certain order, that order needs to sound good. Otherwise, rearrange it.

And a few of those songs would bog things down regardless of what preceded or followed them. I think they just needed to trim the fat on that one.

[Ian]

I don't have any problem with polish.  Polish is great.  I just don't like that they replaced their old style with a new style when the old style was far more interesting to listen to.

And maybe you're right about Faking My Own Suicide, but it never even occured to me that the song was kidding around.  I hope you're right, because otherwise that song is just painfully emo (as much as I hate using that word).

If you're going to make an album and present your songs in a certain order, that order needs to sound good. Otherwise, rearrange it.

Agreed, but I still don't feel that it was that much of an issue.  They didn't do a prefect job, but to me at least it never really stands out as a major issue.

[murlough23]

I don't have any problem with polish.  Polish is great.  I just don't like that they replaced their old style with a new style when the old style was far more interesting to listen to.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. Standard pop-punk is totally vanilla to my ears.

And maybe you're right about Faking My Own Suicide, but it never even occured to me that the song was kidding around.  I hope you're right, because otherwise that song is just painfully emo (as much as I hate using that word).

In real life, deceiving people into thinking that you had killed yourself wouldn't be terribly funny, so I'm gonna say it was pretty clearly meant to be a joke song. (Plus, how would one even execute such a deception? They'd obviously figure out you were alive before they put your body in a casket for your funeral. Duh.)

NP: "Turn on the Lights", Sanctus Real

[Ian]

Unless... you're Jack Bauer >_>

[danny316]

Enough whining about lyrics - "Faking My Own Suicide" is an awesome example of how the band has grown, and musically, I get the feeling that it's the sound we should be expecting on the new EP. They worked in a slide and a countryish influence on that song, the same way that "Forgiven" shows them trying out more of a post-punk influence. 5SA7YA is genuinely the best album just because they succeeded at bringing in so many interesting new influences.

...and the lyrics aren't that bad, either, even if they didn't exactly re-write "Pressing On". Oh wait - half the songs on 2LDMARB3D were mediocre rewrites of that one.

They can be witty, musically clever, and not repeat themselves all at the same time, and that's why they get to be one of the "cool" bands even though they've committed some of the "awful Christian rock mistakes" in the past.

Album ranking time!
1. 5SA7YA
2. TAOTTAC
3. mmhmm
4. 2LDMARB3D
5. Relient K

...oh, and mods, it's time to split this one off. I know everyone else wants to play the album ranking game.

[NinjaRob17]

Album ranking time!
1. 5SA7YA
2. TAOTTAC
3. mmhmm
4. 2LDMARB3D
5. Relient K

...oh, and mods, it's time to split this one off. I know everyone else wants to play the album ranking game.

OK here's mine!

1. "  "
2. "  "
3. "  "
4. "  "
5. "  "

[murlough23]

Enough whining about lyrics - "Faking My Own Suicide" is an awesome example of how the band has grown, and musically, I get the feeling that it's the sound we should be expecting on the new EP.

Gah, I hope not. It was an interesting diversion, but not the type of thing I'd want them to take on full time.

They worked in a slide and a countryish influence on that song, the same way that "Forgiven" shows them trying out more of a post-punk influence.

"Forgiven" seemed more like streamlined, radio-friendly rock music without scaling back on the rock factor. Not so say that it was completely ordinary - the piano goes a long way toward distinguishing them from other bands in their genre, and that song had a hell of a chorus, and it was notable for its proper use of the word "damned" and surprisingly, being met with completely open arms by Christian radio. (Sorry, Derek Webb. You can't win 'em all.)

All this is to say, I didn't realize that it was post-anything, because it seemed to me like a classic example of using the basic pop/rock toolbox to create a really exceptional song.

5SA7YA is genuinely the best album just because they succeeded at bringing in so many interesting new influences.

I don't think that alone makes an album great, but it certainly helps a hell of a lot.

...and the lyrics aren't that bad, either, even if they didn't exactly re-write "Pressing On". Oh wait - half the songs on 2LDMARB3D were mediocre rewrites of that one.

I'm not sure I agree about rewriting "Pressing On". Could you name a few examples?

They can be witty, musically clever, and not repeat themselves all at the same time, and that's why they get to be one of the "cool" bands even though they've committed some of the "awful Christian rock mistakes" in the past.

I'd say they've effectively snatched the "most improved since their first album" award away from Audio Adrenaline, but part of that's because Audio A did some serious de-evolving toward the end.

Album ranking time!

I can never resist that game.

1. Mmhmm
2. Five Score and Seven Years Ago
3. The Anatomy of the Tongue in Cheek
4. Two Lefts Don't Make a Right... But Three Do
5. Let It Snow, Baby... Let It Reindeer
6. Relient K

(I know, it's easier to abbreviate than to type the album titles out... but it kinda makes most of 'em look like license plates.)

...oh, and mods, it's time to split this one off. I know everyone else wants to play the album ranking game.

Agreed.

NP: "Equally Skilled", Jon Foreman

[danny316]

Gah, I hope not. It was an interesting diversion, but not the type of thing I'd want them to take on full time.

Well, they mentioned more country influences showing up on the Nashville Tennis EP. It's possible that they've found other ways to incorporate that influence (fiddles and mandolins could be interesting, and we've seen them do well with a banjo before...)

All this is to say, I didn't realize that it was post-anything, because it seemed to me like a classic example of using the basic pop/rock toolbox to create a really exceptional song.

I don't really get where that term came from myself (I don't really think it has much to do with punk, to be honest). It's a little more useful than comparing it to the Killers or U2, though, so we're stuck with "post-punk" as a term to use for that style. In any case, it's a good song and it's not much like the rest of their stuff.

I'm not sure I agree about rewriting "Pressing On". Could you name a few examples?

"Forward Motion" comes to mind. There were a few others with the same basic lyrical theme there too, but it's been a while since I've heard that album (I do have three better albums that I can go to for a RK fix, after all, and I put together a best-of tracklist a while back too).

I'd say they've effectively snatched the "most improved since their first album" award away from Audio Adrenaline, but part of that's because Audio A did some serious de-evolving toward the end.

The opposite award goes to SONICFLOOd, I take it?

(I know, it's easier to abbreviate than to type the album titles out... but it kinda makes most of 'em look like license plates.)

So that's why they use the long titles! You just know they have a fan with each in every state.

[murlough23]

Well, they mentioned more country influences showing up on the Nashville Tennis EP. It's possible that they've found other ways to incorporate that influence (fiddles and mandolins could be interesting, and we've seen them do well with a banjo before...)

OK, I'm sold.

I don't really get where that term came from myself (I don't really think it has much to do with punk, to be honest). It's a little more useful than comparing it to the Killers or U2, though, so we're stuck with "post-punk" as a term to use for that style. In any case, it's a good song and it's not much like the rest of their stuff.

I guess it sounds weird to call something "post-" anything in this day and age when the "post-" style has been around long enough for me to think of it as "pre-".

But I understand now what style you were referring to, which is all that matters for the sake of this conversation.

"Forward Motion" comes to mind.

"Forward Motion" had enough rhythmic changeups, and expressed enough frustration about not moving forward, that it strikes me more as the antithesis of "Pressing On". It's too restless; "Pressing On" is totally easygoing. I do think that the theme of one's own growth, or feeling dumb about the lack of it, is one that they enjoy revisiting, though, but they do it with such great results that I don't mind.

There were a few others with the same basic lyrical theme there too, but it's been a while since I've heard that album (I do have three better albums that I can go to for a RK fix, after all, and I put together a best-of tracklist a while back too).

It is kind of the theme of the album... though - the title and the album covers were all designed to relate to that idea of getting turned around and lost and crashing in the dead-ass-end of nowhere.

The opposite award goes to SONICFLOOd, I take it?

Disqualified. You have to actually have at least one of the same members.

Third Day might be a good nominee, though...

So that's why they use the long titles! You just know they have a fan with each in every state.

Either that or they have fans that make the license plates...

[NewDimension]

I gather we're talking about Relient K here? My very favorite song from them, is "Softer to Me".

[murlough23]

I gather we're talking about Relient K here? My very favorite song from them, is "Softer to Me".

From their first album. Figures.

[NewDimension]

From their first album. Figures.

First album or not it's an awesome song. I can't begin to tell you how awesome it is. "Be My Escape" is another song I like a lot from them and that's not from their first album.

[Aaron]

From their first album. Figures.

Probably the only song from the first album that can compare to their better, later stuff.  You could have said "figures" if ND had said "Marilyn manson ate my girlfriend" LOL

[Vlad!]

[Administrative note: I was asked to split this thread off from the Coming in 2008 thread, so I did, but by the time I got here you guys had written a book about Relient K. I tried to make sure I got all the right posts and didn't split off any of the wrong posts (some guys had to stick stuff about Ron Sexmith and NiN in there just to throw off my groove). Anyway, here's your very own thread. Enjoy.]

[danny316]

"Softer to Me" is easily the best first album track and the only truly essential one, but "Wake Up Call" was pretty awesome too.

"It's 3 AM she said, who are you, Matchbox 20?"

OK, so the chorus was pretty lame, but those verses were pure fun.

Thanks Vlad!

[ajyouthguy]

1. Mmhmm
2. Five Score and Seven Years Ago
3. The Anatomy of the Tongue in Cheek
4. Two Lefts Don't Make a Right... But Three Do
5. Relient K

[Aaron]

1. Mmhmm
2. Five Score and Seven Years Ago
3. The Anatomy of the Tongue in Cheek
4. Two Lefts Don't Make a Right... But Three Do
5. Relient K

Exactly my order as well.  However, I like RK more than Two Lefts.  I just hated that album but musically it was better than the self-titled.

[murlough23]

First album or not it's an awesome song.

I never much cared for anything from their first album beyond the first three songs, truth be told. However, "Softer" seemed to be the one song that survived in the band's setlist when they had pretty much disowned the rest of that album, so I would surmise it's their favorite from that one, too, and I guess that means I shouldn't get on your case about it. Sorry.

I still find the song to be awkward, though. It doesn't display Kutless-like levels of awkwardness, but there's a good idea for a song in there, which goes south when they try to force a guilt trip down our throats (basically, Jesus died for you, therefore you don't ever have the right to complain about any of your pain.)

Not that the Marilyn Manson song is any less contrived, mind you, but at least it's funny. (Manson's music is perhaps an easy target, but I was subjected to plenty of it when I used to work at a music store, so let's just say I was amused by the pot-shot they took at him/her at the time.) It's the Toby Mac intro that puts the cherry on top for that one.

"Wake Up Call" and "Hello McFly" are similarly humorous, in that goofy adolescent sort of way.

But one thing I do appreciate is that as they've grown, they haven't had to rely as much on pop culture references to make their points in their own unique way. Because stuff like that is amusing when you're in the moment, but to someone hearing it years later, it makes little sense.

I can't begin to tell you how awesome it is.

Sure you can begin to tell me. You just did.

"Be My Escape" is another song I like a lot from them and that's not from their first album.

OK, well as long as you're still on board with some of their more recent stuff, that's cool. I was just hoping it wasn't one of those "They were cool back in the day when they wrote Jesus songs, but now they've GONE SECULAR! BOO HISS!" sorts of things.

[murlough23]

Exactly my order as well.  However, I like RK more than Two Lefts.  I just hated that album but musically it was better than the self-titled.

Alright, I know I criticized Two Lefts, but I've gotta speak up in that album's defense now, because out of the 15 or so tracks on it, I'd say that I have a great deal of love for at least 7 or 8 of them. That's pretty good odds for any band (I only mildly dislike 1 or 2 of the others).

And come on, Silly Shoes! Best hidden track ever!

[Aaron]

Alright, I know I criticized Two Lefts, but I've gotta speak up in that album's defense now, because out of the 15 or so tracks on it, I'd say that I have a great deal of love for at least 7 or 8 of them. That's pretty good odds for any band (I only mildly dislike 1 or 2 of the others).

And come on, Silly Shoes! Best hidden track ever!

It's all good.  We hate various albums for uniquely different reasons.  I know many people like Two Lefts.  I just can't bear listening to that album.

[murlough23]

It's all good.  We hate various albums for uniquely different reasons.  I know many people like Two Lefts.  I just can't bear listening to that album.

I suppose I appreciate it more for a lot of individual songs that I'd pull off and put on an RK best of, rather than as something I'd enjoy listening to from end to end.

(DOH! Accidental song-title speak!)

[NewDimension]

I never much cared for anything from their first album beyond the first three songs, truth be told. However, "Softer" seemed to be the one song that survived in the band's setlist when they had pretty much disowned the rest of that album, so I would surmise it's their favorite from that one, too, and I guess that means I shouldn't get on your case about it. Sorry.

Thanks for the apology.

I still find the song to be awkward, though. It doesn't display Kutless-like levels of awkwardness, but there's a good idea for a song in there, which goes south when they try to force a guilt trip down our throats (basically, Jesus died for you, therefore you don't ever have the right to complain about any of your pain.)

Since we're mentioning my very favorite band Kutless, it would be nice and interesting if they toured with Relient K. I wonder if they have already? Anywho,  I don't see the song as a guilt trip, rather, as an encouragement for endurance in the midst of a "harsh" and "cruel" world, concluding around the fact of how horrendous it was for Christ to die for us, which is the ultimate reason not to become weary and discouraged. Sure we can complain, I personally don't view the song saying it's wrong for us to, though it can be deciphered that way, at the same time, it's not good for us to complain on a constant basis even though we may feel like it and our circumstances may entice us to.

Not that the Marilyn Manson song is any less contrived, mind you, but at least it's funny. (Manson's music is perhaps an easy target, but I was subjected to plenty of it when I used to work at a music store, so let's just say I was amused by the pot-shot they took at him/her at the time.) It's the Toby Mac intro that puts the cherry on top for that one.

Excuse my ignorance, does that mean you like TobyMac or you don't?

Sure you can begin to tell me. You just did.

You're right, I did begin to. I should have said "I can't tell you the entirety of how awesome this song is." That would have been more accurate.

OK, well as long as you're still on board with some of their more recent stuff, that's cool. I was just hoping it wasn't one of those "They were cool back in the day when they wrote Jesus songs, but now they've GONE SECULAR! BOO HISS!" sorts of things.

No, it's not one of those "They were cool back in the day when they wrote Jesus songs, but now they've GONE SECULAR! BOO HISS!" sorts of things. I think it's cool that they've gone more secular, there's like a wider audience to reach. Now I will admit, songs that are more secular, don't really cut to the core of my heart or really challenge me as much as the other types of songs. Does that mean I don't like songs like that? Absolutely not. There's plenty of songs that could be considered more secular that I like. I, personally don't believe you have to say "Jesus" or "God" or "Holy Spirit" in songs you write. I have noticed though, that those songs can in ways, be more powerful, since they are directly speaking the most powerful name and are more outrightly directed to God. It's silly and unwise to just write off music by Christians that could be considered more secular.

[murlough23]

Since we're mentioning my very favorite band Kutless, it would be nice and interesting if they toured with Relient K. I wonder if they have already?

Barf. Relient K would never do that; it'd be career suicide.

Excuse my ignorance

I suppose an excuse can be made for it in this case.

does that mean you like TobyMac or you don't?

I go back and forth on whether I like his music (I loved dc Talk back in the day), but I love the little intro where he says, "A song about Marilyn Manson will never be on a CD put out by Gotee Records. Period." And then the song starts.

You're right, I did begin to. I should have said "I can't tell you the entirety of how awesome this song is." That would have been more accurate.

I was just nitpicking linguistics to be funny. I knew what you meant.

Now I will admit, songs that are more secular, don't really cut to the core of my heart or really challenge me as much as the other types of songs.

How are we defining "more secular" songs? By content, or by intended audience? Five Score was marketed to a mainstream audience as well as a Christian one, and it's notable that the most creative and unexpected song on the record ("Deathbed") is also its most blatantly Christian.

[Ian]

For me:

1. Two Lefts Don't Make A Right But Three Do
2. Mmhmm
3. Anatomy of the Tongue and Cheek
4. Five Score and Seven Years Ago

Haven't listened to the first one, and probably won't.

[spacebrat311]

1. Anatomy of the Tongue in Cheek
2. Mmhmm
3. Two Lefts Don't make a Right But Three Do
4. Five Score and Seven Years Ago
 I, similarly, have listened to maybe two songs from the first album. It should be also noted that the gap between Mmhmm and anything below it is very very large. And that my favorite of theirs, AOTTIC, falls somewhere in the "listenable, but mostly for nostalgia" range.

[NewDimension]

Barf. Relient K would never do that; it'd be career suicide.

I bet Relient K would.....and I know you ment career suicide for Kutless if they were to tour with Relient K.  And don't tell me what I know you'll be saying to that, I'll say what you're thinking right now: "Kutless never had a career" or "Kutless's career is suicide" (which may be true that it is suicide to you).... and yeah, I so don't agree with that. And how could that be anyhow? Their new cd is gonna be called "To Know That You're Alive."! June is approaching.....

I suppose an excuse can be made for it in this case.

Thanks, I appreciate you're leniency.

I go back and forth on whether I like his music (I loved dc Talk back in the day), but I love the little intro where he says, "A song about Marilyn Manson will never be on a CD put out by Gotee Records. Period." And then the song starts.

dc Talk was awesome. So what do you think about Kevin Max and Michael Tait now?

I was just nitpicking linguistics to be funny. I knew what you meant.

I knew you knew what I ment. Seriously, I should explain these things better for people who need further explanations.

How are we defining "more secular" songs? By content, or by intended audience? Five Score was marketed to a mainstream audience as well as a Christian one, and it's notable that the most creative and unexpected song on the record ("Deathbed") is also its most blatantly Christian.

I was referring to songs from any artist not just Relient K. There are many ways to define "more secular" songs as far as I'm concerned, (which can be a bit tricky to explain without easily getting misunderstood) but since you narrowed down the options, I think it's really silly and pathetic to consider a song secular because it's intended more for that sort of audience, though some artists themselves may consider songs secular that way, I don't know. But pretty much the content is what draws the line between more secular and that which is more penetrating to my heart. It just does, maybe because I'm really, really hungry and I need to digest something more, if you know what I mean. I haven't heard entirely their latest album yet, so I haven't heard "Deathbed" yet, I want to though so I probably will when the time comes to pass.

[danny316]

Thanks, I appreciate you're leniency.

I see that you're asking for more of it now, too.

dc Talk was awesome. So what do you think about Kevin Max and Michael Tait now?

Dude - Murlough writes reviews of this stuff. You can look him up (divad23 on epinions) if you want to know about any given album. As I recall, he dug the first Tait record, but hated the second one (because of the over reliance on synths when they don't even have a full-time keyboard player). I'm pretty sure he likes all of the KMax projects he's reviewed. I think he hasn't gotten to some of the older dc Talk albums yet, but I know he's covered most of the solo stuff, and he has cited Supernatural as a top-5 favorite before.

...of course, there are a few things he hasn't covered and a few things he's hated even from fairly reliable bands too (on the dc Talk topic, his inclusion of "Let's Roll" on a list of the worst CCM songs ever comes to mind). Things that are only released as singles or ho-hum EPs don't tend to get much coverage on epinions.

We also have quite a few "concert journal" and "music journal" threads organized by year here, if you want other opinions. You can use the search feature to dig up older ones, but the 2008 versions of each are on the first page of the music forum.

I knew you knew what I ment.

...and what you meant, too.

Seriously, I should explain these things better for people who need further explanations.

I think you underestimate our ability to find mistakes. I've seen some pretty tough nitpicking here.

But pretty much the content is what draws the line between more secular and that which is more penetrating to my heart. It just does, maybe because I'm really, really hungry and I need to digest something more, if you know what I mean.

The digestion lingo is widely used here. I don't think that many of us still think of heart-penetrating as an important criteria for evaluating music, though. There are plenty of ways to be a creative and engaging listen without pulling on heartstrings, after all.

I haven't heard entirely their latest album yet, so I haven't heard "Deathbed" yet, I want to though so I probably will when the time comes to pass.

Just curious, but how old are you? I know of a website that has a free music subscription service for anyone with access to an e-mail address from a college in the US.