Relient K

[murlough23]

I'll put it this way:  I'm not personally the most creative person in the world.  If I think "I could have thought of that", I probably won't appreciate it much.

Perhaps you need to give yourself a little more credit. I don't think that every quip you come up with is uninventive. 

That said, my appreciation for Relient K increased tenfold with their last album, and made me sit down to really take in some of their earlier work, lyrics and all.  A few jokes didn't make me think of the band as a joke forever.

That's refreshing to hear, though it makes me wonder why you weren't paying attention as closely to their earlier work the first time you listened to it.

That said, their first album kinda sucks, and they're still working out some of the "bad song idea" kinks on albums 2 and 3.

As for Barenaked Ladies, I hardly know them, so I can't really tell you my impressions of their work.

You really should put Barenaked Ladies Are Me on your to-digest list. I'd also recommend the companion album, Barenaked Ladies Are Men, but the output is a bit more varied on that one (ranging from brilliant to fairly lame), whereas Are Me is a remarkably solid set of songs from front to back. Not all of the writing is witty and punny. Some of it is simply very observant. I think it's an album that would surprise anyone who thinks the band is just there to goof of (though judging from your previous reaction to the song "War on Drugs", from Everything to Everyone, I know that you've already acknowledged this).

[murlough23]

Pfft, I don't know how.

my point exactly.

But something or other distinguishes a Stellar Kart melody from say, a Radiohead melody or whatever artist you feel makes great ones.  A lot of it comes down to personal taste, but there is some level of objectivity, even if I don't know how to describe it.

Subjective things are damn near impossible to define. Things that are claimed to be objective need something a little more concrete to back them up, and since you've failed to provide that or even admit such a thing exists, I think we can throw the entire "average melody" argument out on its head.

But since no one here actually said it was great that I recall, I probably shouldn't have brought it up.

True story.

That's exactly what I'm saying.  You don't seem to have heard the same response for the song as I have, so obviously my bringing it up was out of context.

You brought up that it was overhyped, and any song can be overhyped regardless of how good it actually is, so while you're not wrong here, I don't think it has a hell of a lot of bearing on the discussion, either.

I never criticized Relient K's treatment of the song.  They did a really good job with it.  I'm criticizing other people's opinions of certain aspects of the song.

If you're not criticizing the opinions of someone who is here to explain themselves, then I don't see how this is worth pursuing any further. I'm sure that there are probably some RK fans out there who are idiots and don't know what they're talking about, even when gushing about some of the same songs I'd gush about. I'm sure there are others who can articulate this well and not hype a song for being something that it's not.

I never said such a thing.  If anything, I prefer a really well presented song over an actually good song.  As I've already said a bunch of times, I like The Mars Volta quite a bit.  I can think of one, maybe two of their songs that would sound good with just an accoustic guitar.  I'm not sure where you're gathering otherwise.

What would you strip it down to as a litmus test to see if it's a good song, then? You're the one who brought up that the melody, by itself, isn't all that great. What's the test for that?

And it's not like I'd cite that aspect of the song specifically as something that makes it so brilliant. Not every great song has to have a mind-blowing melody; some have very simple pop-song melodies and just do a lot with them. So what? Does every single piece need to be picture-perfect in order for a song to be "great"?

I don't find the lyrics to be that terribly clever or emotional.  They're not bad at all, but they're nothing to write home about.

Sure. Totally ordinary. Tons of other Christian bands have written the same thing in the same way. 

Also, I'm not accusing Relient K of anything, so stop implying that I am.

I'm not accusing you of accusing them. I'm just saying that all of the extra stuff they threw at that song was not a smokescreen to make them look smarter or more artistic than they are. That's all.

A lot of Radiohead's music is decievingly simple.  I've scoured the net for all sorts of bootlegs and such, and it's surprising how many of their songs stand so well with just one or two instruments.  One of the reasons they're my favorite band, they take songs that are moving, and then present the song in a way that makes the theme even richer, yet still forces you to spend time with it before you get what's going on.

And they have a few rather fabulous songs where the melody, all by itself, would be rather dull, so I'm not sure what the point is of isolating one element of a song and then critiquing it as if it could be expected to constitute a brilliant song in a vacuum with no other elements in play.

[bloop]

Perhaps you need to give yourself a little more credit. I don't think that every quip you come up with is uninventive.

Well, it's not so much that, but I don't think of it as special enough for someone to buy, if that makes sense.

That's refreshing to hear, though it makes me wonder why you weren't paying attention as closely to their earlier work the first time you listened to it.

It's just a matter of bad timing with where I was   The first time I heard the band (I wasn't really listening), I was taking in as much as I could, and that meant a lot of music that seemed strange to me.  Relient K was just a little too vanilla to me at the time, and I have to admit to being a bit countercultural in a very contrary way at my Christian college (in other words, just a hint of CCM bigotry at work there, which might still manifest itself to some smaller degree).

[murlough23]

Well, it's not so much that, but I don't think of it as special enough for someone to buy, if that makes sense.

Sure, but keep in mind that it's easier to throw it out there in everyday speech than it is to write it into a song.

And anyway, pretty much everyone I listen to is capable of something that I'm not, even if I think at times that I could write better song lyrics. It's not really the greatest litmus test to compare to the abilities of those of us who don't do this full-time.

It's just a matter of bad timing with where I was   The first time I heard the band (I wasn't really listening), I was taking in as much as I could, and that meant a lot of music that seemed strange to me.  Relient K was just a little too vanilla to me at the time, and I have to admit to being a bit countercultural in a very contrary way at my Christian college (in other words, just a hint of CCM bigotry at work there, which might still manifest itself to some smaller degree).

I'm sort of going through that "CCM bigotry" phase myself these days, so I can understand. I've just learned that exceptional musicians can occasionally still arise from within a climate that only expects mediocrity from them (though usually, in that case, the climate won't know what to do with them when they really start to exceed a their craft).

[bloop]

OK, murlough.  Since I have the opportunity to get Barenaked Ladies Are Men (but not Are Me) for free (thanks Josh P), I'll give that one a spin.

[murlough23]

OK, murlough.  Since I have the opportunity to get Barenaked Ladies Are Men (but not Are Me) for free (thanks Josh P), I'll give that one a spin.

OK. Just be aware of my reservations about that one.

NP: "Watch Us Explode (Justify)", The Polyphonic Spree

[bloop]

I don't know if it's a good idea to start out on an artist's best album anyway.  Everything that follows would then be varying levels of disappointing.

[murlough23]

I don't know if it's a good idea to start out on an artist's best album anyway.  Everything that follows would then be varying levels of disappointing.

Except for potentially their albums released after that point.

[Ian]

my point exactly.

Nice point.  Would be even nicer if it related to what I was saying to begin with.  Also read:

True story.

I might also add that a fleeting and inconsequential comment such as the one I made didn't require a full disection.

What would you strip it down to as a litmus test to see if it's a good song, then? You're the one who brought up that the melody, by itself, isn't all that great. What's the test for that?

I don't need to "test" a song to see if it's good.  If I enjoy it, it's good enough.

And I said it's not all that great in my opinion.  I then went on to say that I would highly question people who consider it to be truly great.

Sure. Totally ordinary. Tons of other Christian bands have written the same thing in the same way.

I never said the word ordinary.  And in any case, since when did a song's unordinary nature ever make it good?

Does every single piece need to be picture-perfect in order for a song to be "great"?

And I am now getting just a little sick of you putting words in my mouth.

[murlough23]

Nice point.  Would be even nicer if it related to what I was saying to begin with.

My point in pressing the issue was that it would likely get the response from you that you didn't know.

I might also add that a fleeting and inconsequential comment such as the one I made didn't require a full disection.

It's a Phorum about Music, on which people who are passionate about Music discuss it in sometimes great detail. If you expect a dissenting opinion to not be questioned and your reasons for having it to not be examined, you're probably in the wrong place. You obviously have the right to your opinion, and I'd wish for no less. But of course I'm going to ask questions when I see something that doesn't make sense to me. (Not liking what I like is not the thing that "doesn't make sense" here, so let's not go down that road.)

I don't need to "test" a song to see if it's good.  If I enjoy it, it's good enough.

Which means that we've whittled this one down to pure subjectivity.

And I said it's not all that great in my opinion.

You still have a reason for having that opinion, albeit not a very well-stated one.

I then went on to say that I would highly question people who consider it to be truly great.

As I am highly questioning your arbitrary analysis of why it is not.

I never said the word ordinary.  And in any case, since when did a song's unordinary nature ever make it good?

Something to write home about would be special in some way, would it not?

And I am now getting just a little sick of you putting words in my mouth.

I'm not putting words in your mouth; I'm just trying to take your (apparent) logic and see where it leads. My bottom line is that I feel you're putting a lot of extra scrutiny on what you consider to be the weaker points in a single song, even though you would not apply that logic to the formation of your opinions on many other songs, nor would this have ever been an issue if not for some unseen population of Relient K fans painting a false picture of the song for that could have only led to disappointment in comparison to what you apparently expected it to be.

But if you're sick of it, I'm fine if you'd prefer to just drop your entire case.

[NewDimension]

It's a Phorum about Music, on which people who are passionate about Music discuss it in sometimes great detail. If you expect a dissenting opinion to not be questioned and your reasons for having it to not be examined, you're probably in the wrong place. You obviously have the right to your opinion, and I'd wish for no less. But of course I'm going to ask questions when I see something that doesn't make sense to me. (Not liking what I like is not the thing that "doesn't make sense" here, so let's not go down that road.)

I guess I'm in the right place then....

[Ian]

My point in pressing the issue was that it would likely get the response from you that you didn't know.

I understand that.  However, you're ignoring the fact that this entire time I have been talking about my opinion.

It's a Phorum about Music, on which people who are passionate about Music discuss it in sometimes great detail. If you expect a dissenting opinion to not be questioned and your reasons for having it to not be examined, you're probably in the wrong place.

I see.  Then it must have been someone else who said, "If you're not criticizing the opinions of someone who is here to explain themselves, then I don't see how this is worth pursuing any further."  Yeah, it was my bad making the comment in the first place, but it really didn't warrant any further discussion.  And I'm partly to blame for letting it continue on as well.

Which means that we've whittled this one down to pure subjectivity.

Not quite.  I said "good enough."  Kutless may be good enough for ND, but that doesn't make it good.  No, I can't define what makes a good melody, but that doesn't keep me from believing that there is some objective level on which we can look at them.

As I am highly questioning your arbitrary analysis of why it is not.

Mediocre to above average lyrics, and a melody that sounds forced.  Instrumentation redeems these two minor flaws, but not to the point that I would consider this song to be on the level that some others do.

Something to write home about would be special in some way, would it not?

So... I asked why an unordinary song is good, and you say because it's special.  Wth?

I'm not putting words in your mouth; I'm just trying to take your (apparent) logic and see where it leads. My bottom line is that I feel you're putting a lot of extra scrutiny on what you consider to be the weaker points in a single song, even though you would not apply that logic to the formation of your opinions on many other songs, nor would this have ever been an issue if not for some unseen population of Relient K fans painting a false picture of the song for that could have only led to disappointment in comparison to what you apparently expected it to be.

First you brought up chord complexity, then you brought up whether the quality of a melody could really be defined, and then you brought up originalty.  And you  implied that I had used any of those as part of my initial statement, which I hadn't.

And yes, I am putting scrutiny on the lyrics and melody.  The lyrics are arguably the purpose of the song, and the mellody should enforce the lyrics, which in my opinion it doesn't do ideally, in my eyes keeping the song from reaching the status it's attained in the eyes of others.  That's all I ever meant to say, and we've already established that I'm no master of communication, so this:

I'm fine if you'd prefer to just drop your entire case.

would be a novel idea.

[murlough23]

Fair enough. Case closed.

[NewDimension]

Not quite.  I said "good enough."  Kutless may be good enough for ND, but that doesn't make it good. 

Oh, I feel so special, now I'm being used as an example!!!

[Ian]

Fair enough. Case closed.

oooooooh, you may have won this time, murlough, you may have won this time...

Oh, I feel so special, now I'm being used as an example!!!

Unfortunately, for all the wrong reasons.

[murlough23]

oooooooh, you may have won this time, murlough, you may have won this time...

I didn't "win". I thought we were declaring a truce and letting it drop.

[Aaron]

I'll just I won for the hell of it even though I haven't read this thread in a couple of days.

[Ian]

I didn't "win". I thought we were declaring a truce and letting it drop.

...Yeah, I was kinda just kidding around.

[murlough23]

I'll just I won for the hell of it even though I haven't read this thread in a couple of days.

Sounds arbitrary enough to work for me.

[murlough23]

...Yeah, I was kinda just kidding around.

LOL!!!!! Hilarious!!!!!

[Aaron]

Sounds arbitrary enough to work for me.

Wow..I didn't even realize how bad my grammar was in that post.  Yikes!

[Ian]

LOL!!!!! Hilarious!!!!!

...er, right

glad we can both appreciate subtlety

[murlough23]

Wow..I didn't even realize how bad my grammar was in that post.  Yikes!

I figured you skipped a word without realizing it... I do that all the time.

[T-Bone]

Heh, I just caught up with this thread (which was quite amusing, since Relient K was absent from large portions of the discussion  ), and thought I'd throw in my two cents.  I'd rank Relient K's albums:

1.Mmhmm
2. Five Score and Seven Years Ago
3. Two Lefts Don’t Make a Right…But Three Do
4. The Anatomy of Tongue and Cheek
5. Relient K

I really enjoy all of the albums apart from their debut, where I only like a couple of songs.  I think I like Two Lefts… more than most of you, because I at least somewhat enjoy every song, likely because it was the first album by the band I ever listened to.  Anatomy is good, but contains 2 or 3 songs I genuinely don’t like.  “Failure to Excommunicate” used to be my favorite song of theirs, although I think “When I Go Down” has since replaced it.  “Forgiven” and “Deathbed” are both pretty close contenders though (yeah, I’m with murlough on “Deathbed”, and I was one who kind of rolled my eyes when I heard it was over 10 minutes long, just because I figured they were just trying to top “When I go Down” in the epic closer department). 

[murlough23]

“Forgiven” and “Deathbed” are both pretty close contenders though (yeah, I’m with murlough on “Deathbed”, and I was one who kind of rolled my eyes when I heard it was over 10 minutes long, just because I figured they were just trying to top “When I go Down” in the epic closer department).

Yeah, they should definitely not try to top it length-wise on the next album. It'd just start to get ridiculous at that point.

For the record, "Forgiven" is actually my favorite Relient K song - I gush a lot about "Deathbed", but it's actually my #2 favorite on the album it comes from.

[T-Bone]

For the record, "Forgiven" is actually my favorite Relient K song - I gush a lot about "Deathbed", but it's actually my #2 favorite on the album it comes from.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply "Deathbed" was your favorite.  I only referenced you since you'd been disucssing it (rather than "Forgiven") previously in this thread.  I think I may slightly prefer Forgiven as well, actually.  And "Am I Understood?" is another of my favorite Relient K songs I neglected to mention earlier.

[murlough23]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply "Deathbed" was your favorite.  I only referenced you since you'd been disucssing it (rather than "Forgiven") previously in this thread.  I think I may slightly prefer Forgiven as well, actually.  And "Am I Understood?" is another of my favorite Relient K songs I neglected to mention earlier.

I didn't think anyone was implying it, I just thought it might be good to give the conversation a little perspective by saying it's not the only RK song that I think is pretty amazing.

I think "I Am Understood?" is pretty awesome as well.

NP: "Live", Yoav