All things Baptist

[ajyouthguy]

I went to a Baptist school and church where going to the movies was not allowed. 

hmm, i'm a youth pastor at a Baptist church where i use movie clips nearly every week, take my kids to see movies at the movies, show movies for movie nights (not the ultracheesy Christian ones either), and am currently building an entire summer Wednesday night youth series around "God and Pop Culture," basing them on scenes from movies like Spiderman, Narnia, Lord of the Rings, Horton Hears a Who, Independence Day, and more.  haha.

[enemy anemone]

rub it in, whydontcha!

they might have eased up on the rules since the dark ages, but at the time dancing and pants on women were also frowned upon. anybody else know what culottes are? ugh. I didn't care about the no-dancing thing, but to this day I refuse to wear skirts/dresses.

[murlough23]

hmm, i'm a youth pastor at a Baptist church where i use movie clips nearly every week, take my kids to see movies at the movies, show movies for movie nights (not the ultracheesy Christian ones either), and am currently building an entire summer Wednesday night youth series around "God and Pop Culture," basing them on scenes from movies like Spiderman, Narnia, Lord of the Rings, Horton Hears a Who, Independence Day, and more.  haha.

I go to a Baptist church where one of our pastors (a woman pastor, mind you) will intentionally go see a movie when she finds out it's controversial and Christian watchdogs groups are boycotting it (for example, The Golden Compass).

All this is to say, there's quite a bit of theological variance among Baptist churches. We're American Baptist and we generally skew more liberal than Southern Baptists, but I also know that not all Southern Baptist churches fit the stick-in-the-mud stereotype.

[ajyouthguy]

All this is to say, there's quite a bit of theological variance among Baptist churches. We're American Baptist and we generally skew more liberal than Southern Baptists, but I also know that not all Southern Baptist churches fit the stick-in-the-mud stereotype.

yeah...there are A LOT that do, and they get all the publicity and give people all the negative stereotypes, but there are plenty of us that don't.  my church is still pretty stinkin' conservative, although less so than almost all of them  in our association (a grouping of 30 churches in our area that are independent yet connected), and even within ours, i'm fairly 'liberal' in the sense that i hate the stereotypes and don't want to be like most of the stereotypes, and push the envelope quite a bit on a lot of levels for a smallish Arkansas rural southern baptist church.  our pastor is very conservative in a lot of ways, but also very open to trying new stuff and changing methods, and the very first thing he told me when i started 10 years ago was basically that as long as i keep him informed of what's going on, he'll stay out of the way, trust me and let me try just about anything, the idea being that if we fail, at least now we know b/c we tried.  i pride myself in being a little different than people think i'm gonna be, or even 'should' be, blowing away preconceptions about myself as well as smalltown southern baptist youth groups and churches. we like to joke about and make fun of the stereotypes a LOT too, haha.

[murlough23]

yeah...there are A LOT that do, and they get all the publicity and give people all the negative stereotypes, but there are plenty of us that don't.

One could easily broaden this statement to Christians in general instead of just picking on the Southern Baptists, I suppose. There are plenty of loudmouth morons in many different denominations giving God a bad reputation. (I used to go to a Charismatic church full of people who hung on every word spoken by Pat Robertson, Paul Crouch, Benny Hinn, and Carman, for example.) There are also plenty of Christian musicians doing this.

my church is still pretty stinkin' conservative

Does it actually stink, or is that just an expression?

[NewDimension]

rub it in, whydontcha!

they might have eased up on the rules since the dark ages, but at the time dancing and pants on women were also frowned upon. anybody else know what culottes are? ugh. I didn't care about the no-dancing thing, but to this day I refuse to wear skirts/dresses.

Same with me. I went to a Baptist school for the first few years I started going to school, and they made you wear skirts and everything, and I can't really remember the last time I wore one. Something else that was funny, is one time it was like a couple weeks after Christmas and they asked if anyone wanted to sing a song, and I mentioned one that's considered a "Christmas" song, and they told me, "That's a Christmas song.." And we had just sang it a few weeks earlier...lol To this day, I sing "Christmas" songs year-round...It's pretty fun actually.

[murlough23]

Same with me. I went to a Baptist school for the first few years I started going to school, and they made you wear skirts and everything, and I can't really remember the last time I wore one. Something else that was funny, is one time it was like a couple weeks after Christmas and they asked if anyone wanted to sing a song, and I mentioned one that's considered a "Christmas" song, and they told me, "That's a Christmas song.." And we had just sang it a few weeks earlier...lol To this day, I sing "Christmas" songs year-round...It's pretty fun actually.

I think it's sad that we only consider it appropriate to sing songs about Christ's birth at Christmastime. I realize than we have sentimental memories linking the songs to the season (even though historically, Jesus couldn't have been born at that time of year, but whatever). And of course it doesn't make sense to sing Christmas songs that are actually about winter (which are usually the non-spiritual ones like "Jingle Bells" and "Sleigh Ride" anyway) when it isn't winter... though I wonder how they handle this in Australia?

Christmastime is my least favorite time of year, because I don't like winter, I don't like the extra darkness, but I do like the beginning of a new year, so it's December that is the hard part. So I tend to have negative memories associated with a lot of Christmas songs, personally, though that did start to change last year thanks to two of my favorite bands releasing pretty solid Christmas albums. There are some Christmas carols like "O Holy Night" that I can hear and enjoy at any time of year, but I tend not to play/sing them around others because I'd get strange looks.

One side effect of the "compartmentalizing" we do regarding Christmas is that we tend to put so much focus on Christ's birth at that time of year and then put it all away so quickly afterwards, I think it limits our thinking sometimes, as if the baby never left that manger. My pastor has talked about this a few times during Christmas Eve services.

[phaith]

I grew up in the 'closed bretheren' church. We didn't have instruments in the service (never mind dancing, movies etc...which were straight from the pit).

When I was 20 (and in a much more liberal church) I went to a baptist church with some friends. Durring the worship we sang a song that was really upbeat and inspiring. My friends and I started claping (no dancing or raising our hands, just claping). After the first verse the pastor stop the music, came to the front and reprimanded us for being disrespectful and told us to stop clapping or we would have to leave! 

We didn't go back.

There were 15 of us that he managed to put off. (This was almost 20 years ago).

[murlough23]

I grew up in the 'closed bretheren' church. We didn't have instruments in the service (never mind dancing, movies etc...which were straight from the pit).

Interesting. I was in the Bretheren church as a kid, up until junior high age, when dwindling attendance a revolving door of pastors led my family to jump ship and start attending a Charismatic church instead. (Talk about whiplash!) The Bretheren church wasn't as "closed", apparently - we had an organist. Still, I was absolutely shocked when we started going to the Charismatic church and I heard "contemporary worship" for the first time (this was in 1990).

When I was 20 (and in a much more liberal church) I went to a baptist church with some friends. Durring the worship we sang a song that was really upbeat and inspiring. My friends and I started claping (no dancing or raising our hands, just claping). After the first verse the pastor stop the music, came to the front and reprimanded us for being disrespectful and told us to stop clapping or we would have to leave! 

We didn't go back.

There were 15 of us that he managed to put off. (This was almost 20 years ago).

What's really sad about this is that there are people who decide not to become Christians (or not to continue being Christians) because of stuff like this. What's the rationale for it, even? I've heard the argument that having a beat is evil because it's derived from drums, which are an invention of African tribes that observe pagan religions and whatnot. So essentially, when you get down to it, it's a xenophobic and racist argument that most people don't realize the underlying roots of.

Once I realized that not everything which has been used for evil purposes is inherently evil (such as rock music), that freed up my mind regarding a lot of human inventions. Just about anything can be used to praise God, and just about anything can be used to blaspheme Him, too.

I wonder if that Baptist church you went to has a website... there's porn on the Internet, you know, which makes it a tool of the Devil...

[phaith]

Interesting. I was in the Bretheren church as a kid, up until junior high age, when dwindling attendance a revolving door of pastors led my family to jump ship and start attending a Charismatic church instead. (Talk about whiplash!) The Bretheren church wasn't as "closed", apparently - we had an organist. Still, I was absolutely shocked when we started going to the Charismatic church and I heard "contemporary worship" for the first time (this was in 1990).

What's really sad about this is that there are people who decide not to become Christians (or not to continue being Christians) because of stuff like this. What's the rationale for it, even? I've heard the argument that having a beat is evil because it's derived from drums, which are an invention of African tribes that observe pagan religions and whatnot. So essentially, when you get down to it, it's a xenophobic and racist argument that most people don't realize the underlying roots of.

Our church (the closed bretheren) didn't believe in pastors either.

I don't know of anyone in our group who discontinued being christian because of this incident, they just had very little respect for the baptist church.

[murlough23]

Our church (the closed bretheren) didn't believe in pastors either.

Um... what? Who the heck led the church?

I don't know of anyone in our group who discontinued being christian because of this incident, they just had very little respect for the baptist church.

Still sad, because there are Baptist churches out there (such as, hopefully, mine) that have much more rational and reasonable views.

There are times when I'm tempted to think 99% of the Christians in this country are complete effing morons... but then I get a hold of myself and realized that would be a bit prejudiced, to think that only my church and a handful of others are "right". That would be the same kind of thinking that leads some of these "independent" churches to become so extremist and closed-minded and certain that everyone else is going to hell. But the reality is that whatever percent of the Church is a bunch of closed-minded morons, they unfortunately get the most press and make the rest of us (regardless of denomination) look really bad, which pisses me off.

And that's why, when movies/TV/music/the media in general pokes fun at Christians, I don't get angry at the media, I get angry at the Church for making itself such an easy target.

[phaith]

Um... what? Who the heck led the church?

If you know much about the Quakers you may find them a bit similar

A basic service:
(There was an elder’s board...but they mostly made decisions on what to do with the offering money and who should teach Sunday school etc.)

We sat in a circle with communion in the middle on a table

- Someone would open with prayer (any man over the age of 15 could speak)
- Silence
- Someone would suggest a song (then we would sing the song accapella (sp?))
- Silence
- Someone might speak a homily (no more than 5 min)
- Someone prays
- Communion
- Silence
- Song
- Prayer to end service.

Whoever prayed, spoke or suggested a song was the man who got to his feet first.

[murlough23]

If you know much about the Quakers you may find them a bit similar

I don't know that much about them, but I do like their oatmeal.

(There was an elder’s board...but they mostly made decisions on what to do with the offering money and who should teach Sunday school etc.)

One thing about the structure of our church (and I'd assume other Baptist churches) that interests me is that the elders/deacons/whatever you want to call them have veto power over the pastor. If they want, they can vote him out and get a new one. So basically there's a system of checks and balances. But we still have a team of pastors leading the church, whose decisions we generally trust.

- Someone would open with prayer (any man over the age of 15 could speak)
- Silence
- Someone would suggest a song (then we would sing the song accapella (sp?))
- Silence
- Someone might speak a homily (no more than 5 min)
- Someone prays
- Communion
- Silence
- Song
- Prayer to end service.

This actually sounds more similar to a Bible group study. While I appreciate the notion of not elevating some sort of a "leader" as if he were holier than everyone else, I think it's a mistake to say that you can't have a person in such a position at all. I figure pastors are just fellow sinners who have devoted much more of their life to careful study of the Bible and to discerning God's will for their flock. They are not infallible, but they perform a very important service in terms of helping to make the meaning of God's Word and the application of it in our time a bit less murky. They are by no means the only way to get to a clearer understanding of God's work... but they are certainly helpful and I would hate to not have their guidance.

Whoever prayed, spoke or suggested a song was the man who got to his feet first.

Of course it had to be a man. 

NP: "Horse to Water", R.E.M.

[phaith]

Alot of churches don't let women speak, one was no diffrent...I mean...come on...look how conservative they were! LOL

[murlough23]

Alot of churches don't let women speak, one was no diffrent...I mean...come on...look how conservative they were! LOL

I wonder what one would do if there were no options other than a church like this in the area where they lived. I think it's important to attend church in some fashion, but if every church you can find makes you feel like a second-class citizen, what recourse do you have?

[bethany]

We go to  baptist church that is not Baptist. And we're not baptist. 

[Vlad!]

Alot of churches don't let women speak, one was no diffrent...I mean...come on...look how conservative they were! LOL

The church I go to doesn't allow women to lead or teach the congregation (obviously they can lead in women's ministry and children's ministry). I'm not sure if I agree with that view or not, but it's hard to argue against a majority opinion, and I love the church even if it does things like that.

[Aaron]

I could never go to a church that didn't allow women to lead or teach the congregation.  I've been raised that way since both of my parents are ordained ministers.

[murlough23]

The church I go to doesn't allow women to lead or teach the congregation (obviously they can lead in women's ministry and children's ministry). I'm not sure if I agree with that view or not, but it's hard to argue against a majority opinion, and I love the church even if it does things like that.

Some of the greatest heroes of the faith have been those who argued against the majority opinion, so I'm not sure that letting the status quo stick just because it's easier not to rock the boat is the best idea.

That said, I can understand the willingness to negotiate certain theological differences gracefully if you still believe in the overall vision of the church and appreciate being part of that specific community.

Our church "hived" just over 10 years ago (before I was part of it), purportedly on the grounds that they were getting too big for their current facility, but in talking to people from our "sister church" now, I've come to realize that their congregation skews older and more towards the typical suburban nuclear families, and is unsurprisingly a bit more conservative. Our congregation skews younger and has more single folks, and is comparatively more liberal. Our current senior pastor was the assistant pastor to the senior pastor of our "sister church", who used to run our church before the split. They are still very good friends and have mutual respect for each other, despite the fact that their pastor won't allow women in leadership, and our church is already on its second female assistant pastor. As much as gender issues in the church are a hot button topic for me and I find it extremely difficult to tolerate people who expect women to play a secondary role, I have been reminded by my pastor's attitude towards his mentor that these people are still our brothers and sisters, and while we go to different churches with different roles, we don't just shun those people from fellowship. That's been a hard lesson for me to implement in my personal life.

What Wanderer said also rings true for me... one of my biggest influences spiritually was the InterVarsity staff worker in charge of our campus fellowship in college, who was a woman. I would not be the same person today if not for her leadership (and the leadership of several other men and women). I'm pretty sure what I've learned from female leaders in the fellowships/churches I've been a part of has not been heresy. So I think they're legit. Back in the Bible days when women could barely read or get much of an education, I can see why having them in charge of a church might not have been the brightest idea.

[spacebrat311]

If you know much about the Quakers you may find them a bit similar

I love love love Quakers.

[ajyouthguy]

I wanted to revisit this topic after what was probably the most incredible experience of my ten years of ministry this week.

first, i mentioned some things above about how our church, while considered by most people as very very conservative i'm sure, does allow me to do a lot of things in our youth ministry that are atypical for a Southern Baptist church, especially one in rural Arkansas, and i'm VERY thankful for that.
Because of that, this week, most, if not all, of my 18 students and 3 adults who went on our youth mission trip  had the best week of their lives spiritually and were pushed and challenged in ways they never had been.  Their eyes were opened so much to the reality of poverty in our own country and to the fact that though we definitely do not live in an area most would consider 'affluent,' most of my kids are still VERY spoiled and get most, if not all, of what they want, and much of what they do not need. 

This week, we spent 6 days in Waco, Texas.  While Waco is better known for things like Baylor University and the David Koresh/Branch Davidian nightmare, what most people probably do not know is that Waco has the second highest per capita poverty rate in the U.S.  Their percentage of residents living at or below the poverty line is more than twice the national average...the average is 11-12% and Waco's is 27% (that's TWENTY-SEVEN).  We stayed at, and worked with, an amazing organization called Mission Waco (highly encourage you to check it out) and worked with inner city kids living in the projects, doing 'street camps' with them, and did a variety of other ministries (including homeless ministry, clothing ministry, other kids programs, minor repairs and painting, and more) for the ministries of Mission Waco.  We also attended a church called Church Under the Bridge, which literally meets under an Interstate bridge a few blocks from Baylor's campus and attracts the most diverse crowd i've ever seen in a church setting.  It was truly incredible.

My point with all of this is that i know of a LOT of churches, many in our area, who would never have allowed their student ministries to do something like that, for a variety of (mostly sad and lame) reasons, one of the primary ones being 'well, you didn't share the gospel/go door to door/do crusades,' etc, which is a sad but very true and all too common outlook many people have on the idea of missions.  Fortunately, our church supports what I feel led to do in our youth ministry and believes that anything like that which we choose to take our kids to participate in is a GOOD thing and a way of showing and sharing Christ and His love, which is ultimately the starting point for introducing people to Jesus.  And for that, i'm very thankful to have the church i do, and the kids in our ministry, and their parents supportiveness.  i look forward to the transformations i've seen take place in the kids this week taking hold of them FAR beyond a one week spiritual high experience, and we prayed as a group that we would experience, as David Crowder Band so aptly sings in the end of "The Glory of It All," a life where "Everything will change, we will never be the same."

[murlough23]

This week, we spent 6 days in Waco, Texas.  While Waco is better known for things like Baylor University and the David Koresh/Branch Davidian nightmare

Don't forget David Crowder!

My point with all of this is that i know of a LOT of churches, many in our area, who would never have allowed their student ministries to do something like that, for a variety of (mostly sad and lame) reasons, one of the primary ones being 'well, you didn't share the gospel/go door to door/do crusades,' etc, which is a sad but very true and all too common outlook many people have on the idea of missions.

It is truly sad that you guys are the exception and not the norm. Too many churches have their heads up their asses about this sort of thing. "We don't care if they starve, just cram the Gospel down their throats before they croak." Funny, my Bible talks about loving the least of these. You could interpret it as "social justice" if you want to tack a buzzword onto it. Whatever the case, it seems pretty clear to me that our preaching about Jesus is will come across as mostly vacuous if we don't take the time to at least try to love as Jesus loved. That transcends denominational lines.

And I'll admit that I struggle with that. It's easier to spout truth at someone, figure they can take it or leave it as they choose, and then leave without really spending the time to love and care for them.

[NewDimension]

It is truly sad that you guys are the exception and not the norm. Too many churches have their heads up their asses about this sort of thing. "We don't care if they starve, just cram the Gospel down their throats before they croak." Funny, my Bible talks about loving the least of these. You could interpret it as "social justice" if you want to tack a buzzword onto it. Whatever the case, it seems pretty clear to me that our preaching about Jesus is will come across as mostly vacuous if we don't take the time to at least try to love as Jesus loved. That transcends denominational lines.

And I'll admit that I struggle with that. It's easier to spout truth at someone, figure they can take it or leave it as they choose, and then leave without really spending the time to love and care for them.

Good words. It reminds me of the passage about the Good Samaratian, and this one song..

It really is sad that a lot of churches/individuals tend to forget about reflecting the "love" part of the gospel, I have also at times. Love is what the gospel is all about. Without that as the primary focus of what a church/individual does, it's pretty much ritualistic or like an organization, etc.... Sometimes the only Jesus people will truly see, is Him in us, as they watch our lives, and what we do and say. Which is why, we need to go into the world and display His love, in whatever way God has us do that. Cause His love, revolutionizes everything.