Financial Frustrations, Marital Malaise

[murlough23]

The facts:

• My wife really, really wants to have a baby.
• Babies are a gift from God, but also a financial burden.
• We have talked about this and agreed, that the best logical thing to do is to wait a few years and build up some savings to help offset the financial burden.
• My salary pays our bills, and that's about it. Any luxuries we've been able to afford above and beyond that are because she has held odd jobs in the past.
• We would be able to actually save up some money if we both worked.
• I work full-time at a decent-paying job that I truly love.
• My wife has been unemployed since she quit her preschool teaching job in late July.
• My wife has hated every job she's ever held.
• My wife is currently taking classes part-time with the hopes of becoming a librarian.
• My wife is not keen on the idea of working part-time while taking these classes.
• My wife wants to be a stay-at-home mom once we have a child.
• My wife does not know how to drive. She has yet to even get her learner's permit.
• Babies cannot run their own errands, nor are they good at figuring out bus routes.
• It takes forever to get much of anywhere in Los Angeles via public transit.
• it would seem logical for her to have a driver's license and her own car before we have a child.
• My wife is afraid to get behind the wheel of a car.
• My wife feels that I am putting pressure on her by reminding her of the things that I think would be logical to do first before we have a child.
• My wife feels so depressed by how long we might have to wait to have a child, that she fears her depression will keep her from performing well at any job.
• The implication is that all of the above is somehow my fault.
• HELP!!!

Please pray.

[spacebrat311]

Doing so now and will continue to do so.

[bethany]

I am confused...so, she is taking classes (which presumably cost money) to train for a career, but she doesn't want to HAVE a career once she gets pregnant, she wants to stay at home. So she can't work part time now because she is training for a job she wants to quit as soon as she has a baby (which she wants to have ASAP)? I do not follow the logic in that at all. One would think that she'd be eager and willing to work as much as possible right now, to save up money so that having a baby is financially feasible as quickly as possible, rather than dragging out training, which I'm assuming doesn't earn any money to be saving up, which means having a baby is that much farther off in the future. 

Then again, I suppose if she were being sensible about the situation, you wouldn't be posting here in frustration in the first place.

[murlough23]

I am confused...so, she is taking classes (which presumably cost money) to train for a career, but she doesn't want to HAVE a career once she gets pregnant, she wants to stay at home. So she can't work part time now because she is training for a job she wants to quit as soon as she has a baby (which she wants to have ASAP)? I do not follow the logic in that at all. One would think that she'd be eager and willing to work as much as possible right now, to save up money so that having a baby is financially feasible as quickly as possible, rather than dragging out training, which I'm assuming doesn't earn any money to be saving up, which means having a baby is that much farther off in the future. 

EXACTLY. And the fact that one of her fellow females can see the logic pokes a great big ol' hole in her argument that I "just don't get it" because I'm not a woman.

Then again, I suppose if she were being sensible about the situation, you wouldn't be posting here in frustration in the first place.

As much as I love her, the words "sensible" and "my wife" have never belonged in the same sentence.

I figure it's up to her to decide which road to choose: Either don't save up for the future and don't have a baby and be miserable, or show some actual responsibility in the here and now then then get what you want in a few years. Either way, I'll be here and I'll keep doing what I'm doing (working hard to make the lion's share of our income as I have been as long as we've known each other), but it's really up to her whether our marriage continues to be a happy one at this point.

If you detect a hint of contempt in there, it's because I have little respect for people who don't want to pull their own weight in this society. Being a stay-at-home mom, in my opinion, is pulling a hell of a lot of weight, and I have nothing but respect for women who choose to make that sacrifice. Being a stay-at-home non-mom, however, is just being a dead weight, unless you were lucky enough to marry a guy who is rich enough to afford it.

[Josh]

Will definitely pray-- but, having been married for only 4 months, I probably shouldn't give any advice! (Not that I can even THINK of any...)

[murlough23]

Will definitely pray-- but, having been married for only 4 months, I probably shouldn't give any advice! (Not that I can even THINK of any...)

I'll give you some, then. Ideally, I'd have told you to do this before you even got married, but anyway... Make sure that you and your wife get all of your "unspoken expectations" of what your marriage will be like, when you want to have kids and how many, who will play what roles in terms of financial and domestic support, and all that jazz, out in the open ASAP. It will save you a world of hurt later.

Of course, I thought we did this - I distinctly remember sitting down with my wife the day after she became my fiancee, talking about stuff like, "So, do we want to have kids?" and kind of looking ahead at what sort of preliminary responsibilities that would entail. Apparently my mistake was attempting to have a rational conversation when she was still on Cloud Nine and could only get as far as, "Yay, all of my dreams are now going to magically come true at my every whim!" Well, not exactly. I believe in dreams coming true, but I believe you're a fool if you expect them to magically fall into your lap without having to work for them.

I think part of the problem here might be the impression left upon us by the previous generation. My father was a deadbeat who took off and left my mother in the lurch; she had to work very hard and cut a lot of corners to support us two kids on a teacher's salary, and I would not wish this on anyone. I consider it my social responsibility to do better for my kids so that they don't have to go without and we don't have to leech off of government assistance or favors from friends. My wife's parents were not rich, by any means, but her father had a solid job and her parents got married later in life (plus the economy was just different back then, even for a place like Hawaii with a high cost of living), so they could afford for her mom not to work. (Plus they got some nice kickbacks from the government as a sort of "belated apology" for her mother being born in a Japanese Internment Camp during WWII.) She did some babysitting here and there that she just lumped in with looking after her own kids, but I don't think that brought in a ton of income. Mom staying home with the kids beyond the initial "maternity leave" phase was more or less an expectation back then, and since my wife was brought up in a fairly conservative environment with strictly defined gender roles and everyone seemingly happy with it, she naturally assumed this was what married life would be like for her as well. These days, it's a luxury that a lot of couples simply cannot afford.

So, yeah. Stuff you want to make sure you're both 100% crystal clear on before you tie the knot. I thought we were. But what I say and what my wife hears are apparently two vastly different things.

[bethany]

Have you guys thought about seeking any kind of counsel? Not necessarily formal "marriage counseling" in a psychiatrist's office, but sitting down with a pastor or a mutually-respected older couple from your church or something, to give a safe and structured environment to hash through some of the dawning realizations/frustrations/mismatched expectations (that was a lot of "-ations" in a row) of your marriage? I suppose "counseling" can have a negative connotation, but I think that it's generally always wise to seek counsel from someone a few steps ahead of you in life when you run up against these sorts of challenges.

[murlough23]

Have you guys thought about seeking any kind of counsel? Not necessarily formal "marriage counseling" in a psychiatrist's office, but sitting down with a pastor or a mutually-respected older couple from your church or something, to give a safe and structured environment to hash through some of the dawning realizations/frustrations/mismatched expectations (that was a lot of "-ations" in a row) of your marriage? I suppose "counseling" can have a negative connotation, but I think that it's generally always wise to seek counsel from someone a few steps ahead of you in life when you run up against these sorts of challenges.

This is good advice, and something that I've thought about. My wife is currently seeing a professional therapist over another issue. One of our pastors, who was aware of some of the turbulence she went through at her old job, referred her to the counselor. I've been told that I can sit in on a session at no extra charge. The only reason I've hesitated to do this so far is because that I felt that her limited time with the therapist was best spent on her having a chance for a non-biased person to hear out her thoughts and fears without me there to be constantly interjecting with my own opinion (which is likely going to sound a bit harsh to an outsider). I kind of worry that it will just turn into an argument in front of a stranger that will turn out to be a waste of money, truth be told.

But then again, trained professionals know how to deal with these things and make sure everyone has a turn to talk, so maybe it won't be all that bad.

[leinad]

Well, I have never been married, and have never been in a situation like this (except being on the dead-weight end!) so any suggestion I make is purely theoretical.  Nonetheless, it sounds doubtful that the use of reason will get you anywhere, so it's probably time to think about a more practical solution to some of the issues. Among them:

• My wife does not know how to drive. She has yet to even get her learner's permit.
• Babies cannot run their own errands, nor are they good at figuring out bus routes.
• It takes forever to get much of anywhere in Los Angeles via public transit.
• it would seem logical for her to have a driver's license and her own car before we have a child.
• My wife is afraid to get behind the wheel of a car.

.

Now, how to solve this? Has she tried improving her hand-eye coordination (for example, by playing video games, or learning to juggle)? Perhaps then she could gain the confidence to get behind the wheel? That perhaps would open more job opportunities as well.

[murlough23]

Well, I have never been married, and have never been in a situation like this (except being on the dead-weight end!) so any suggestion I make is purely theoretical.  Nonetheless, it sounds doubtful that the use of reason will get you anywhere, so it's probably time to think about a more practical solution to some of the issues.

Aren't reason and practicality the same thing? Or at least the same diff?

Now, how to solve this? Has she tried improving her hand-eye coordination (for example, by playing video games, or learning to juggle)? Perhaps then she could gain the confidence to get behind the wheel? That perhaps would open more job opportunities as well.

Heh. Video games as life skill development. I'd enjoy that. But given how frustrated she got the last time we tried to play Mario Kart Wii with friends and she came in dead last every single time, I'm not sure that would work.

The thing is, she's very observant on the road - more so than I am at times. She's always notifying me of cars in the next lane that I may or may not have noticed when I'm about to change lanes, people in crosswalks, etc. If she could get over her confidence issues, I'm sure she'd be a safer driver than I am. The problem is that I drive a stick and it would be ten times harder for her to learn on my car. I'm all for paying for her to take Driver's Ed. I think that's a worthwhile investment. But she needs to pass the written test first - she's picked up the manual from the DMV a few times over the past few years and read through it, but never taken the initiative to actually go down there and get her permit. I realize that driving in L.A. is intimidating, but you know, maybe you should have thought of that before you moved here from Hawaii, the land where they actually have to post minimum speed limits on their Interstate Highways because everyone is so "hang loose" that they're pretty much always on a Sunday drive. Would've been a lot easier there!

Not having a license has fortunately not stopped her from getting jobs in the past. Getting to and from work has never really been an issue - she can take the bus during hours when I'm at work (which is time-consuming, but it works), and I pick her up and/or drop her off if it's after dark or on a weekend. The driving thing is more of an issue because if we have a child, and she's at home with it all day, and I'm constantly getting calls saying, "The baby needs to go do the doctor" or "I need you to pick up something for the baby at the store and it can't wait until dinnertime" or whatever, that's going to make it very difficult for me to log my 40 hours of work during the week - I'd end up staying late a lot, missing meetings, and in general just not being as focused on my work. God forbid there's ever an emergency - she'd have to wait 20 extra minutes for me to come get her to take the kid to the ER. She's really gonna need her own autonomy - which would require having her own auto - at that point. I'm fine with it if she never wants to drive on freeways or long-distance. She'd have little cause to do any of that by herself anyway. We can just buy somebody's beat-up used car, long as it still runs well enough to get her across town and back. We can make the money for the car and for insurance work if she can take the initiative to get the license.

NP: "Blame Me! Blame Me!", Anberlin

[leinad]

Still, you said that she's afraid to get behind the wheel. If not video games, what about learning to juggle, to improve her hand-eye coordination and confidence? There are several instructional videos on youtube.

[murlough23]

Still, you said that she's afraid to get behind the wheel. If not video games, what about learning to juggle, to improve her hand-eye coordination and confidence? There are several instructional videos on youtube.

I don't think hand-eye coordination or any other physical skill is the issue. Far as I can tell, she's physically capable of doing it. It's just an irrational fear that the worst possible thing will happen the minute she gets out onto the open road. I'm like, "Look, you ride a bike, and you're in a bike lane on a busy street with cars passing within a few feet of you. That's far more likely to get you killed than actually being a driver of one of those cars. For that matter, you're about as likely to die as a passenger in my car as you are as the driver of your own car, because more accidents seem to happen when people make left turns at inopportune times. So it's safer for her to drive her own car than for me to be ferrying her around all the time. Right?

[leinad]

She may be more afraid of hitting and hurting someone else. Maybe not so much skill, but confidence is the issue. Not knowing her I have no idea if that is the case or not.

[murlough23]

She may be more afraid of hitting and hurting someone else. Maybe not so much skill, but confidence is the issue. Not knowing her I have no idea if that is the case or not.

As condescending as this may sound, I've learned that she often uses "I'm scared" as a smokescreen for "I'm not motivated". Either way, my response is the same. You want a baby, you need to do this to make it work, so either get over your fear and do it, or think about the baby you want so bad, there's your motivation. If I talked myself out of doing everything I was ever scared to do, I'd have never gotten married.

NP: "Haight St.", Anberlin

[leinad]

As condescending as this may sound, I've learned that she often uses "I'm scared" as a smokescreen for "I'm not motivated". Either way, my response is the same. You want a baby, you need to do this to make it work, so either get over your fear and do it, or think about the baby you want so bad, there's your motivation. If I talked myself out of doing everything I was ever scared to do, I'd have never gotten married.

NP: "Haight St.", Anberlin

With a few important exceptions, I have to say I unfortunately can really relate to your wife as you've described her here. Your above opinion that Being a stay-at-home non-mom (in this case, your wife) is just being a dead weight, while perfectly reasonable and not something that you should be blamed for feeling, is probably not helpful to your marriage.

On a very personal note (normally I would never touch this kind of thing on here, but this thread is already extremely personal), I hope you are not trusting her to take the pill.

[murlough23]

With a few important exceptions, I have to say I unfortunately can really relate to your wife as you've described her here. Your above opinion that Being a stay-at-home non-mom (in this case, your wife) is just being a dead weight, while perfectly reasonable and not something that you should be blamed for feeling, is probably not helpful to your marriage.

I haven't expressed it to her in such harsh terms. But if my explaining to her that she needs to be earning money in some way, shape, or form, and making good use of her time, might be harmful to our marriage, then it's a risk I'm going to have to take, because her not working is definitely harmful to our marriage.

Look, it's not like she's doing absolutely nothing. She has some interviews scheduled. She's just so down about the whole thing that she almost expects it to thwart her from actually getting hired. The first thing I woke up to this morning was her coming into the room, lying down, looking all despondent, and saying, "I don't think I'm gonna go to my interview today, because they probably won't hire me." I was like, "Excuse me? You scheduled it; you might as well go, and if they choose not to hire you, that's their loss, but let that be their call." She's trying... but rather eighth-heartedly.

On a very personal note (normally I would never touch this kind of thing on here, but this thread is already extremely personal), I hope you are not trusting her to take the pill.

We've never used the pill due to other medical concerns that made it an unsafe option for her. We have our fairly foolproof methods of not getting pregnant until we actually want to get pregnant. I'll spare you the details.

I realize that no method is completely idiot-proof, save for abstinence (which, given the current climate of our marriage, doesn't seem like an unreasonable option), and my attitude about an accidental pregnancy has always been that we'd have to make do and love that child every bit as much as we'd love one that was conceived on our ideal timetable. I mean, we could do it. It would be a struggle and I probably wouldn't be terribly happy with the circumstances, but we'd muddle through. A lot of couples do that - have a baby pretty much right out of the gate and end up juggling multiple jobs, or the husband and wife work different shifts so that someone can always be home with the baby, and my wife often cites couples like these as examples, but I point out to her that these couples are usually merely surviving and their marriage takes a major hit due to the additional stress caused by the lack of funds and time together. It's not the ideal situation.

Given that we have a choice in the matter, I'm trying to be wise about it and wait until we're in a better place. Babies can be a major marriage-killer if you don't prepare for them well.

(Incidentally, my mother "forgetting" to take the pill is how I came into being. My father conveniently forgot to tell my mother he didn't want kids until after they were married. After several years of failing to talk him into it, she took matters into her own hands. Which of course meant that I ended up being the harbinger of death for my parents' marriage. But hey, I exist. Thanks, Mom!)

[Vlad!]

I think bethany's suggestion of counseling is a good one. I don't know how things are at your church, but I know at most churches I've been at any of the elders or deacons or preachers would be glad to lend an ear and some advice. In these situations (frustrating as it may be to us analytical types) having a neutral party telling you the same thing that a (perceived) biased party has been saying all along is sometimes the impetus needed to get it done[1].

Honestly, I think it may be time to just sit down with your wife and do some discipling. It can be tempting, especially in our society, to try and provide gentle guidance and let people work their problems out through extensive therapy or counseling. However, I think the Biblical model is really one of providing strong guidance and leadership. A "this is how it has to be" talk (which you may have already had; I know you said that she is looking for work to some extent) may not increase your popularity around the house short-term, but often in these situations when the person is forced to buckle down and do it then it ends up working out.

I don't know how strong your church is on personal accountability, but again, at my church some of the ladies in your small group (or whatever) would probably get involved to help provide strong female leadership and direction to help support her (and of course the guys would help you by either affirming your actions as Biblical or cautioning you if it looks like you're going too far). I definitely suggest this, especially because (as this post indicates) you have already humbled yourself to acknowledge that handling it on your own isn't really working out.

All of this, of course, comes with the caveat that I am very unqualified to provide marriage advice.

I won't pray that God will bail you out of this situation, since I think you're in it for a reason, and getting through it will strengthen your marriage, but I will pray that even when you're in the middle of it he will be Lord, Savior, and Friend to both of you, and that both of you will die to yourselves so you can live for each-other and for Christ.

[1] Lest I be accused of acting condescending (too late), just because it's frustrating to us analytical types doesn't mean we don't do it too

[murlough23]

I think bethany's suggestion of counseling is a good one. I don't know how things are at your church, but I know at most churches I've been at any of the elders or deacons or preachers would be glad to lend an ear and some advice. In these situations (frustrating as it may be to us analytical types) having a neutral party telling you the same thing that a (perceived) biased party has been saying all along is sometimes the impetus needed to get it done[1].

Some counsel from a pastor was actually the impetus for my wife to quit her old job (after getting frustrated enough with it to do some things that could have gotten her fired had she been found out), and the impetus for me to accept that her quitting that job was the wisest course of action, and therefore to not pressure her to keep it just for the sake of staying employed. We're thinking of sitting down with that pastor again just to discuss, "What now?"

Honestly, I think it may be time to just sit down with your wife and do some discipling. It can be tempting, especially in our society, to try and provide gentle guidance and let people work their problems out through extensive therapy or counseling. However, I think the Biblical model is really one of providing strong guidance and leadership. A "this is how it has to be" talk (which you may have already had; I know you said that she is looking for work to some extent) may not increase your popularity around the house short-term, but often in these situations when the person is forced to buckle down and do it then it ends up working out.

"Discipling" implies that I have something to teach her on spiritual level; I do not. Truth be told; she's probably the more devoted one in terms of prayer and Bible Study and so forth among the two of us. I do not see myself as a leader, spiritually, or otherwise, in this marriage. I accept that certain gender roles were necessary at the time when the Bible was written; I do not accept that those roles are ironclad for all Christian couples throughout all periods of history. (The aforementioned pastor who counseled my wife about her job situation is a woman, one whose leadership I trust almost implicitly, if that gives you any indication as to my view on traditional gender roles.)

That little hermeneutics issue aside, we've always tried to make the tough decisions together. This is the first one we've truly come to an impasse on. If I think that I have any sort of authority here, it's only because I've been part of the workforce longer and I've had to manage my own bills and finances longer, and I understand some of the tough realities that she hasn't yet had to face. That's how we tend to assign weight to certain decisions - whoever's had the most experience with a particular topic. When we have kids, since it was her job to work with the little ones for several years, you'd better believe I'm going to be following her lead when it comes to taking care of them and disciplining them. That doesn't mean letter her do it while I watch from the sidelines; it just means that I'm gonna have a lot to learn from her because I don't have the firsthand experience.

I just don't ever want to get to point where I assume that my way goes just because I'm the man. I don't want that kind of power. Whatever decisions we make should be validated by the facts. Period.

I don't know how strong your church is on personal accountability, but again, at my church some of the ladies in your small group (or whatever) would probably get involved to help provide strong female leadership and direction to help support her

I think it might help for her to hear some of this from her fellow women. She's already reached out to the women in our small group in an Email she sent yesterday. I think they may be more capable of understanding the disconnect between getting the logic but still having your emotions tell you "this isn't fair". Most of us guys tend to be rather insensitive about that whole thing. If the facts are in my favor, then it doesn't necessarily need to be me that she hears it from.

I won't pray that God will bail you out of this situation, since I think you're in it for a reason, and getting through it will strengthen your marriage, but I will pray that even when you're in the middle of it he will be Lord, Savior, and Friend to both of you, and that both of you will die to yourselves so you can live for each-other and for Christ.

Well, I think God wants that much regardless of whether or not you pray for it. It's kind of a "duh" statement. I see what you're trying to say, but if someone's sick, I'm just gonna pray that God heals it. If God chooses instead to keep them sick and use it to build character or whatever, that's God's prerogative.

[bethany]

A lot of couples do that - have a baby pretty much right out of the gate and end up juggling multiple jobs, or the husband and wife work different shifts so that someone can always be home with the baby, and my wife often cites couples like these as examples, but I point out to her that these couples are usually merely surviving and their marriage takes a major hit due to the additional stress caused by the lack of funds and time together. It's not the ideal situation.

Again, that doesn't make too much sense...if she's willing to hold down an outside job and work super hard once she has a baby, why not just do that now, when it's infinitely easier, so that she can stay at home with the baby later? It hurts my head a little.

I can empathize with everyone involved, since my husband and I are in a position of being fairly newly married, he's in grad school, having to make decisions about when to start having kids, how much money to try to save first, etc. It's something we discuss fairly regularly...it's always hard to figure out these big life decision type things.

Just out of curiosity - are you using NFP or FAM or some derivative thereof for birth control?

[leinad]

I suppose one issue which should be raised with her, if it hasn't already, is a rather awkward subject, but one that should not be ignored: What if something were to happen to you? Would she be prepared to in the worst case raise the child(ren) alone, or to take care of them and you if you somehow became handicapped (even temporarily)? Bringing that up might get her thinking more seriously about this.

[murlough23]

Again, that doesn't make too much sense...if she's willing to hold down an outside job and work super hard once she has a baby, why not just do that now, when it's infinitely easier, so that she can stay at home with the baby later? It hurts my head a little.

Your point just illustrates how she hasn't really thought this through.

I can empathize with everyone involved, since my husband and I are in a position of being fairly newly married, he's in grad school, having to make decisions about when to start having kids, how much money to try to save first, etc. It's something we discuss fairly regularly...it's always hard to figure out these big life decision type things.

While I know it can be tough to argue with the old biological clock, I've always figured that if in doubt, you should wait. My problem is that I think my wife secretly suspects that I'm just going to keep using that excuse indefinitely. I won't. 2-3 years from now is a reasonable timeframe if she can get her butt in gear now.

And, as I often point out to her, taking car of a child is a 24/7 job. It may be a job she cares more about than any position she could hold now, but it certainly isn't a break from the daily grind. It merely increases the percentage of the day occupied by that grind.

Just out of curiosity - are you using NFP or FAM or some derivative thereof for birth control?

I don't even know what those are. *Checks Wikipedia* Oh. Nope, not using either of those.

[bethany]

I don't even know what those are. *Checks Wikipedia* Oh. Nope, not using either of those.

Heh, sorry. It gets old to type out "fertility awareness method" and "natural family planning." I forget not everyone spends as much time discussing birth control as I do. Which, er, isn't all that much. But when you and all of your friends are getting married/having babies/trying not to have babies at roughly the same time, it comes up a lot.

[spacebrat311]

Having absolutely no experience with marriage (hell, I've never even been in a serious relationship), all I can do is pray and echo the general consensus that while from the facts presented you seem to be the rational one here, it can't hurt for her to hear it from a trusted third party. Which you've already said you are looking into. So in reality I have nothing to say but hang in there.

[murlough23]

Heh, sorry. It gets old to type out "fertility awareness method" and "natural family planning." I forget not everyone spends as much time discussing birth control as I do. Which, er, isn't all that much. But when you and all of your friends are getting married/having babies/trying not to have babies at roughly the same time, it comes up a lot.

We've been using a much more ancient method, if you must know. I don't mind explaining further, but you might not appreciate the level of detail.

[bethany]

No, I don't need to know. I was simply curious whether it was one of those methods.

[murlough23]

An update, and responses to a few things I left hanging:

My wife has gone to two or three job interviews this week, and is feeling decidedly more calm and logical about the issue now - understanding and agreeing with our need to still wait a few years. She just had a major meltdown earlier in the week, and as I often do, I assumed her feelings on the issue to be permanent unless someone intervened. I forget that she changes her mind on a lot of things rather quickly. I know she's not terribly enthused about some of the retail jobs she's applying for... but I'm getting her to see that as a stepping stone. Still, I wish there was a way to think outside the box a little more and figure out a job she could do temporarily that didn't require extra schooling (since she's already in school working towards the librarian thing) that could be more interesting to her than "retail by default".

On the issue of counseling: I think it's unfortunate that there's this stigma that if you go to marriage counseling, your marriage must be in dire straits. I think it's a healthy thing even for couples who are doing reasonably well. My ideal was for us to continue seeing our pre-marital counselor on a monthly basis or so after we got married. Due to a lack of funds and the discovery that insurance was not subsidizing what I thought it was, we aborted the counseling process rather suddenly when funds for the wedding got tight. They stayed tight afterwards, which is the only real reason we never kept up with the counseling. At this stage I'm not convinced we couldn't get equally qualified advice from another source on a less official basis... but still, I don't assume anything bad about a couple who is seeing a counselor.

On the issue of what my wife would do if something happened to me: I have life insurance that I believe would float her for at least some short period of time. Long term, she would likely have to move back in with her parents or find some generous family to co-habitate with. Or just marry a richer guy. Obviously that's a situation that would suck even if we were filthy rich, so while I think it's good to have something set aside for the worst case scenario, I don't think there's any way she could avoid having to live in "survival mode" without me around.

If I were to get seriously injured to the point of not being able to work and needing to be babysat 24/7, that might actually be a worse situation income-wise than if I just died. But I may have some long-term disability that would kick in at that point. I need to check up on this stuff. Financial crap confuses the hell out of me.

[spacebrat311]

Try craigslist for unusual but decent jobs. Sounds like a weird suggestion, but every good job I or any of my friends have had has been found through it.

[Vlad!]

Other possibilities:
* Typist/transcriptionist. I have a friend who is disabled and can't drive. She works from home typing medical notes. So long as she has the dedication to get work done while at home, something like that might be good. Typing is a skill that can be learned by anyone with approximately ten functioning fingers.
* Receptionist. Generally steady hours. How demanding the job is depends on the organization.
* Nanny/daycare worker. She wants kids, so maybe working with the little terrors as a job will give her the fix she needs until you can have some of your own.

[murlough23]

* Typist/transcriptionist. I have a friend who is disabled and can't drive. She works from home typing medical notes. So long as she has the dedication to get work done while at home, something like that might be good. Typing is a skill that can be learned by anyone with approximately ten functioning fingers.

I doubt this would be a viable option for her since she types about 2 wpm... but I'll make the far-fetched suggestion anyway. There'd definitely be a steep learning curve involved, but then it's a good skill to have in general.

(Incidentally, while I took a typing class in junior high, I never really caught on to the "official" method of touch-typing. I've pretty much perfected "hunt-and-peck". At this point it's really just "peck", because my brain knows where all the keys are, though I do have to be looking at the keyboard to do it, so it still wouldn't be efficient for transcribing something from paper to screen or anything. But it tends to amaze people who note that I type fairly quickly for someone who is only using 2-4 fingers.)

* Receptionist. Generally steady hours. How demanding the job is depends on the organization.

She's taking a computer class now that will probably give her some basic "office skills" - it's a pre-req for her studies to become a librarian. We'll see if the librarian thing actually pans out, but either way, those skills could definitely help in an office setting. But they'd need to be developed first just as the typing would.

* Nanny/daycare worker. She wants kids, so maybe working with the little terrors as a job will give her the fix she needs until you can have some of your own.

The job she just quit and vowed never to go back to was essentially daycare (it called itself a preschool, but they weren't teaching the kids jack crap.) As for the nanny thing, she did it once for a family she knew before moving here, but lack of transportation is the major issue holding her back there. I think she'd do well dealing with one child, or a very small group of children - she only quit teaching because she couldn't handle an entire classroom full of toddlers at once (and a lot of private preschools honestly push the legal limit on the student-to-teacher ratio). A lot of people who want someone to babysit their kids are going to want the nanny to be able to drive, for very much the same reasons that I want her to be able to drive before we have kids. Something happens to the kid, you might need to get them to the hospital pronto.

NP: "Light to Follow", The Polyphonic Spree

[Vlad!]

I doubt this would be a viable option for her since she types about 2 wpm... but I'll make the far-fetched suggestion anyway. There'd definitely be a steep learning curve involved, but then it's a good skill to have in general.

(Incidentally, while I took a typing class in junior high, I never really caught on to the "official" method of touch-typing. I've pretty much perfected "hunt-and-peck". At this point it's really just "peck", because my brain knows where all the keys are, though I do have to be looking at the keyboard to do it, so it still wouldn't be efficient for transcribing something from paper to screen or anything. But it tends to amaze people who note that I type fairly quickly for someone who is only using 2-4 fingers.)

Steve Yegge put it better than I can

She's taking a computer class now that will probably give her some basic "office skills" - it's a pre-req for her studies to become a librarian. We'll see if the librarian thing actually pans out, but either way, those skills could definitely help in an office setting. But they'd need to be developed first just as the typing would.

Very true. I mentioned receptionist because it's generally viewed as an entry-level job, whereas proven experience might be required for a secretary or office manager role.

The job she just quit and vowed never to go back to was essentially daycare (it called itself a preschool, but they weren't teaching the kids jack crap.) As for the nanny thing, she did it once for a family she knew before moving here, but lack of transportation is the major issue holding her back there. I think she'd do well dealing with one child, or a very small group of children - she only quit teaching because she couldn't handle an entire classroom full of toddlers at once (and a lot of private preschools honestly push the legal limit on the student-to-teacher ratio). A lot of people who want someone to babysit their kids are going to want the nanny to be able to drive, for very much the same reasons that I want her to be able to drive before we have kids. Something happens to the kid, you might need to get them to the hospital pronto.

Good point.

If you lived in North Carolina I would also suggest working for the Department of Transportation, since it doesn't require many qualifications to stand around and lean on a shovel all day (yes, I'm bitter about my commute)

[murlough23]

Steve Yegge put it better than I can

Heh. I'm clearly the anomaly here, because I'm the most long-winded blogger and message board poster I know. I like to think I'm reasonably good at commenting my code. Maybe sometimes I get lazy.

(EDIT: I tested my own typing speed just because I was curious. After trying the test at http://speedtest.10-fast-fingers.com/ several times, I concluded that my average - with my "don't hunt, just peck" method - is somewhere around 80-85 wpm. That was fun!)

Very true. I mentioned receptionist because it's generally viewed as an entry-level job, whereas proven experience might be required for a secretary or office manager role.

It's worth bringing up.

If you lived in North Carolina I would also suggest working for the Department of Transportation, since it doesn't require many qualifications to stand around and lean on a shovel all day (yes, I'm bitter about my commute)

Well, I don't know how they do things in your state, but here in California, it takes a lot of effort and coordination to know when to turn that "Stop" sign around to "Slow". It also takes a lot of effort and coordination to time your construction efforts so that they coincide with the busiest traffic of the day.

And I'm pretty sure you'd have to drive to get to whatever random far-flung locations the road's being worked on.

[bethany]

I do medical transcription from home. It's great work if you can get it. I also type pretty fast, though - 107 wpm according to the link murlough just posted. There is a bit of a learning curve - particularly for medical transcription, where a great deal of the vocabulary is probably unfamiliar at first - but once you get into it, it's very simple. Plus I think there are learning programs that certify you to do transcription, which probably helps with that sort of thing. I didn't go that route, opting to just learn on the fly, which worked out fine for me. My particular job just fell in my lap, though, so I know my situation is a bit atypical. But it really is a nice option, being able to do it from home, or anywhere with an internet connection.

[murlough23]

My wife found a job at a local arts & crafts store. She started last week. It's part time, but that fits well with her school schedule. It's a little physically demanding since she's helping to keep the shelves stocked, but she likes "crafty" stuff and I think the ability to get out of the house and do something that brings in a paycheck is a good motivator for her. It's only holiday help, but could translate into something more long-term if she does well. Hopefully this'll tide her over until she's got the education units to do what she really wants to do. So thanks to all who prayed!

I was delighted to find out that one of her requirements for her library classes was that she had to learn very basic webpage design. So I've been helping her learn rudimentary HTML. It's funny; I never expected that our two career paths would cross in any way.

NP: "Cafetorium", Anathallo

[Vlad!]

Sounds like good news to me. Hopefully it continues to work out.

[bethany]

How are things going, Mur?

[murlough23]

How are things going, Mur?

Financially, they're going well. The craft store kept my wife after the holidays, which we didn't expect, though they are giving her very limited hours. She's investigating a second job babysitting for a friend's sister's kids - today was her first day and she'll keep doing it if it goes well. So she's certainly got the motivation to work and understands the need.

The problem is that absolutely all logic goes out the window for my wife when she's frustrated or when a task seems insurmountable. I can be patient over the long haul for something if I feel like I'm making some tiny progress towards a goal, so to me, the notion of having to spend several years saving up a cash reserve is not something to get depressed about. For her, all she has to do is see someone with a baby or have a bad day at work, and suddenly she forgets everything we agreed about and it's "I want a baby NOW so I can be happy." This leads to some pretty bad arguments now and then, which mostly result in her blaming me for not making more money (um, I'm the one with the college degree and the full-time job he's worked for 10 years here), and all I can really do is ride it out until she sleeps on it and reverts back to a more objective view of the plan we already discussed and agreed upon. But on most days when she's not panicking, things are fine.

[murlough23]

OK, new wrinkle. Actually, it's an old problem, just dressed in new clothes. But how I respond to it could seriously unravel any future plans my wife and I had if I'm not careful about it.

First, a little background. I'm sure I've griped about this elsewhere on the Phorum, but my mom has been almost continually struggling with unemployment and the lack of ability to pay her own bills off and on ever since she was ousted from the preschool she used to teach at in 2001. She finally gave up on preschool teaching and moved into retail, and I thought that the job she had at a local educational supply store was covering her bills nicely, until they got a new store manager late last year, who has been extremely stingy with giving everyone hours. So now she's back to having to put off certain bills, and being on the verge of getting kicked out of her house because she can't cover the property taxes. Frakking hell, I thought this potential eviction situation was over with when she finally paid off the house (with much borrowed money from me that I'm sure I'll never see again) back in 2007.

OK, that gets everything up to speed. Now today, my mom calls me and tells me my uncle (her brother) has been in the hospital for a week, apparently after having been living on the street for some unspecified amount of time after his no-good wench of a live-in girlfriend literally took off with everything he owned - clothes, loose change, whatever she could get her hands on. (Is that even legal? They weren't married.) So now he needs a place to live, and my mom figures he has no place to go other than her house, where the plumbing is broken and she doesn't even know if she can afford to stay there. So, as always, whenever there's a family crisis, the burden falls to me because I'm apparently Mr. Moneybags.

So she gives me the ultimatum of, "Would you let a family member end up on the street?", and gets upset and lays a huge guilt trip on me when I try to weasel out of answering it (because my honest gut reaction, which I didn't say out loud, would probably be, "Well, if it's their own fault for making unbeliveably stupid decisions, then yeah.") So I just hung up. I can't get myself into yet another financial commitment with no apparent end in sight right now. I already loaned my mom several thousands of dollars that could potentially have us well on our way to our "baby fund" goals, because I thought it was a time-limited problem that would be over as soon as the house payments were done with. But it feels like a new crisis keeps coming up every few months, and nobody in my family seems to be creative enough to find anyone else to turn to. So now it's either shell out as much as they need for as long as they need (plus let them move in with us, which, HELL TO THE NO!), or be the black sheep of the family. AGAIN.

I think I prefer being the black sheep of the family. When "family" just becomes a code word for "people who expect you to drop everything and rescue them from their own bad choices and guilt trip you if you don't", and there's no sense of reciprocity there, then I say, screw family.

I mean, what am I supposed to do, commit myself to being the financial savior for my mom and uncle, AGAIN, and risk my wife resenting me and resenting my family for sucking away what little surplus we can manage to scrape together?

[bethany]

Yikes, that sounds rough. For what it's worth (which is probably not much, seeing as I am a strange person from the internet), I think you are making the right decision not to loan (or, more accurately, give) your uncle money. Taking care of your parents/children when they are sick or old or young and can't help themselves is one thing. Enabling otherwise able-bodied relatives who are making continually poor choices is another. The financial advice-y people always say not to get financially involved with family, and if you really want to, to always make it a gift so there are no hard feeling about loans and payments and so forth. It sounds like you're not in a position where you want to/are able to just give your uncle a huge financial gift, and I agree that in this situation, you shouldn't, especially if it would put more strain on your marriage.

[Vlad!]

I don't know what to tell you. I don't see a particularly easy way out of that situation.

A few suggestions:
* Tell your mother that you will bail her out of her problem on the condition that she surrender some control over her finances to you. The money she earns at work goes into a joint account with both of your names on it, and you work out a budget for her that will make sure her needs and known upcoming expenses are met. This is of course assuming that her job is at least paying her a livable wage and that her problem partly stems from poor financial management. It's also assuming that you are willing and able to sacrifice again and bail her out. The potential upside is that if she gets in the habit of practicing good financial discipline then she might eventually get to the point where she can repay some of your loans.
* Sell the house and use the money to pay for an apartment. Again, the money from the house could go in an account managed by both of you. If I were to sell my house for about 85% of what I bought it for (which I suspect is about what I would get after closing costs and taking into account the market conditions right now), I could pay what I paid in rent before I bought the house for 23 years. I know living costs are way higher in California than in North Carolina, but I assume the ratio of apartment to house remains relatively constant. If she lives off her income and uses any surplus to replenish the money from selling the house, she would probably make enough in interest to nicely supplement that and keep her housed for the rest of her life. The benefit of doing that is that the expenses are pretty well known ahead of time because maintenance costs (unexpected expenses) are generally handled by the landlord and market fluctuations (increase in property taxes) are amortized over the term of the lease. The drawback of course is that she'd be moving from a house to an apartment.

Regarding what Bethany said, I definitely agree. The one dilemma is that right now it's incredibly difficult to find a job, so what would normally be a situation that your uncle could get himself out of by just going to work someplace might be more dire due to the economy. As I said above, I don't recommend making a gift with no strings attached--you've apparently already done that (and I commend you for it, because like it says in Luke 6, "Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back."--absolutely a hard attitude to take). The only way I would recommend helping them out is if in turn they promise to make changes and be held accountable to keep it from happening again.

I appreciate and respect both what you've done for your family so far, your honesty and openness in sharing your burdens, and the management of your life and your funds that has brought you to the point where others are looking to you for help because you have managed to not screw up your life. I also understand the difficult balance you have to maintain between being fair to your the dreams of you and your wife and helping out your family when they're in need. I will definitely pray for you, your mother, and the whole situation.

[murlough23]

I suppose I should give some further background here, so that I don't paint my mom in an irresponsible light.

My mom is meticulously responsible with the small amount of money that she has. She has always had to be. She raised me and my brother on a preschool teacher's salary after my dad walked out. If there's anything irresponsible that she did, it was to not finish college several years ago. Who could blame her - she got hired to a comfortable lead teacher position that covered her bills and promised long-term tenure. How was she to realize the school's leadership would change hands and the new principal would force her out within a year? She kind of got screwed - she probably shoulda finished her education, but at the time, she had all that she thought she needed (state teaching standards have gotten much stricter in the intervening years as well).

Since 2007, my mom's been working retail, and she's made every effort possible to find a second job when the first job doesn't cover her expenses (which she keeps to a minimum - she pretty much never goes out and we have to offer to pay to get her to have dinner with us, and even to get her to come to Christmas Eve service with us I had to offer to pay for the gas). She takes what hours she can get, picks up extra hours at the drop of a hat when others call in sick, and is by all accounts a very hard-working employee. Right now her current job literally gives her 10 hours or less a week. Nobody can live off of that. It's a complicated political situation with the management, I think. Everyone who works there is far younger than her and a few of the younger assistant managers have told her they suspect ageism is a factor. So she's got people on her side, but thus far they haven't been able to drive out the bad store manager.

So my mom's situation is not her fault. I wouldn't have an issue with tossing 100-200 bucks a month her way in the interim, hoping that her job situation will improve, because I know she manages her money well and would gladly build up a savings if such a thing were possible.

Now, I mentioned my dad walking out years ago. it's been almost 20 years now. Problem is, my parents never got a divorce. (I'm sure some of you guys remember the "I want a divorce" thread.) So they're technically still married, and my dad, who intentionally makes himself a difficult person to get a hold of, co-owns the house with her that she's made the bulk of the payments for. It is not a large house. It is an expensive house given the location, but it was cramped for a family of four. Selling that house would likely rid my mom of most of her current financial problems, since as you mention, an apartment is cheaper month to month. The problem is that she can't sell it unless my dad either consents to selling it and splitting it evenly with her (which he's never gonna do even if she manages to get a hold of him, because he's greedy and wants to get as much out of her as he can), or croaks. (I'd be lying if I said I wasn't hoping for the "croak" option.)

A few years back I suggested that she go through with the divorce, figuring either my dad would make himself available to contest it, or just continue to hide from everything, thus making it relatively easy to legally end the marriage. I don't know what became of her attempts to contact him. As much as I hate to pour salt in old wounds, I may have to suggest that she try this again. A no-fault divorce can be had relatively inexpensively if both parties cooperate, and honestly, his only reason for fighting would be if he was paranoid enough to believe she was hiding some huge stash of money away that he had some sort of claim to... oh wait, this is my father. His paranoia is legendary. So you can see why she's in a pickle.

My mom is of course taking what aid she can get from the government, which isn't much, because (a) the economy sucks, and (b) they're convinced that someone with a house such as hers can't be hurting that bad. (I'm not sure how they do the math. The bottom line is that her net worth is tied up in that damn house. I'd love to see it sold off and razed to the ground, miserable place that it was to grow up and all.)

So I don't see the need to micromanage my mom's finances. My uncle is another story. I feel like his poor decisions basically bought him the result he's got now. I don't mean to say that I have no compassion, but you know, there are shelters, he should consider going to one rather than dragging my mom further into poverty. That's the problem with my family. Anyone who dares to get out of the cycle of poverty (i.e. anyone with common sense enough to actually finish their college education... oh wait, I'm the only one of those left alive) just gets either dragged back in by those who can't escape it, or resented and regarded as the black sheep of the family. I think there are more black sheep in this family than white; maybe I should give some of my fellow black sheep a call now that I realize my reason for resenting them was a load of crap.