Green Day - 21st Century Breakdown

[Josh]

Green Day - 21st Century Breakdown

I know some around here love 'em, and some hate 'em. And I know that liking Green Day is not necessarily hip right now. (Neither is liking U2, and neither was liking Led Zeppelin in the 1960s.) But there's no band like 'em: A mainstream band that makes 1) protest records 2) rock operas and 3) blockbusters-- three things that are in short supply in 2009. They're wildly ambitious, and they're in love with classic rock but committed to making records that sound like no one else but them. And this one's their best yet, I think.

[Ian]

Nah, 21st has nothing on American Idiot.

np: Passion Pit - The Reeling

[Josh]

AI has the punch, 21 has the pomp; AI is rooted in 60s Who, 21 in 70s Who-- as well as Queen, Mott the Hoople, Springsteen, and countless others. So they're different records, which means that personal taste obviously comes into play here. But, I think 21 is more ambitious and varied musically, and the narrative conceit less obtrusive and more helpful to Billie Joe's songwriting.

[murlough23]

Heard the two songs they played on SNL the other day. "Know Your Enemy" was aight. "21 Guns" SUCKED.

[Josh]

I love both, though "21 Guns" is an odd pick for a live performance like that. "Know Your Enemy" makes sense, though-- a great, Clash-y slice of revolution rock.

[murlough23]

I love both, though "21 Guns" is an odd pick for a live performance like that. "Know Your Enemy" makes sense, though-- a great, Clash-y slice of revolution rock.

"21 Guns" sounded like it wanted to be the next "Wake Me Up When September Ends"-type single that would cross over to slightly mellower radio formats who didn't want Green Day's punkier stuff. I'm not opposed to Green Day doing ballads - "September" was my favorite out of a number of excellent tracks on AI - but that one felt so by-the-numbers that it made my head hurt. "Know Your Enemy" sounds like the sort of thing that would get stuck in my head, but it too seemed obvious and repetitive and derivative of better songs from AI.

But those were probably the most compact and audience-friendly songs on an album that I've heard is more ambitious overall. I have 21st downloaded at home, I just haven't gotten around to listening to it yet.

[Brenden]

I like the new album, though it's a lot to digest.

[Ian]

Yeah, to be honest I've only listened to 21st one time so far, but my first listen to AI definitely yielded a far greater impact.

np: Phoenix - 1901

I don't see this in any of your guys's journals.  Get on it.

[murlough23]

I'm enjoying 21st Century Breakdown so far. They may have overstuffed it. And I'll admit to wincing at a few of the Christian-bashing tracks. (I see that as an issue of misidentifying the problem.) And they might try one too many times to fool us into thinking they're doing a ballad and then punking it up a minute into the song. (I like either type of song, but a few of these recordings are a bit schizophrenic).

For now the songs capturing my attention the most are "Peacemaker", "Restless Heart Syndrome", "Before the Lobotomy", and "Last Night on Earth". The latter reminds me that I should add Queen to my "respect the classics" list.

[Josh]

Mur, I'm sure you've figured this out, but just in case you haven't had the chance to sit down and focus on the lyrics yet, it's worth noting that one of the characters in the story is NAMED Christian. I say that because, on my first listen, I thought Billie Joe was commenting on Christians in a couple of songs when really he was just talking about this one guy!

At any rate, I don't hear much of anything that bashes true Christian faith. I hear him bashing a religion that's been politicized, and I hear him bashing hypocrites, but I don't think I hear anything that's meant to throw out the baby with the bathwater, as it were.

[Ian]

man now that these topics are merged i look like a weirdo

[Aaron]

man now that these topics are merged i look like a weirdo

Not sure the merge made any difference  I jest.

[murlough23]

Mur, I'm sure you've figured this out, but just in case you haven't had the chance to sit down and focus on the lyrics yet, it's worth noting that one of the characters in the story is NAMED Christian. I say that because, on my first listen, I thought Billie Joe was commenting on Christians in a couple of songs when really he was just talking about this one guy!

I knew that. This explains songs like "Christian's Inferno". It does not explain "East Jesus Nowhere".

At any rate, I don't hear much of anything that bashes true Christian faith. I hear him bashing a religion that's been politicized, and I hear him bashing hypocrites, but I don't think I hear anything that's meant to throw out the baby with the bathwater, as it were.

I understand that difference. I'm not sure Billie Joe Armstrong or most of his fans do.

[Josh]

My review.

http://thehurstreview.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/green-day-21st-century-breakdown/

[murlough23]

Who else, in the age of Obama, writes vicious, no-prisoners protest rock?

To be fair, most of the songs on this album were likely written in 2008 or earlier. I wouldn't expect them to change course and scrap everything just because the guy they voted for actually won.

Besides, this album's about culture much more than politics. As much as I love Obama, it's not like all of the idiot Republichristians* in this country magically ceased to exist the day he took office.

Ernest in an era where ernest doesn’t fly

Of course Ernest flies! I saw him do it in that movie where he saves Christmas!

(* This colorful phrase refers to those who think being a Christian mandates being a Republican. It does not refer to all Christians who are also Republicans, many of whom are not idiots. Just wanted to clarify that.)

[spacebrat311]

pitchfork attacks!

http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/13045-21st-century-breakdown/

[murlough23]

Alright, so you know what really bugs me about "21 Guns"? (Well, I mean other than the fact that that the chord progression is a rip off of the already cliched-beyond-belief chord progression of "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" and the lyrics throw every "sad angsty teenager slow song" stereotype in the book at us.) It's the chorus. "One, 21 Guns". The grammar just doesn't parse properly there. You can't have "one" of multiple things. "One 21-gun salute" would be fine, which is probably what they're referring to. But as they say it, we have conflicting numbers of guns. That "One" serves no other purpose. It's not the first of a set of instructions, because there's no "Two" later on. It's a useless word thrown in there to bolster a rhyme. Probably nobody else cares, but that's the kind of lazy songwriting that really grates on my nerves.

[Vlad!]

I was in the car today, and something shocking and world-shattering occurred: a song came on the radio which was clearly Green Day, and I didn't hate it. I actually found myself humming it later in the day. I looked it up, and it's apparently called "Know Your Enemy". My normal arguments against why the band's music doesn't click with me are that Billie Joe Armstrong's voice is really annoying and that they're too punk for me, but this song features his annoying voice prominently and is unashamedly punk, but I still like it OK. I'm not sure why that is.

I'm going to want to check out a few more songs on the album before I chalk it up to anything more than a fluke, but my world is tentatively shattered. Next thing you know I'm going to be liking Nickelback and Linkin Park, after which the only option is clearly to kill myself.

[murlough23]

"Know Your Enemy" is probably one of my least favorite tracks on the album. It's OK. But not exactly an earth-shattering choice for a single.

They cover a lot of musical ground on this album. Some of the more snotty, punk-ish stuff might not be your style, but I think Armstrong shows more range and variety than your average pop/punk frontman.

I should probably Pub a track or something.

[Vlad!]

"Know Your Enemy" is probably one of my least favorite tracks on the album. It's OK. But not exactly an earth-shattering choice for a single.

To clarify: my world wasn't shattered because of the song's sheer awesomeness but because my previous position had been that anything by Green Day was unspeakably bad, and I would rather listen to commercials than a Green Day song. It's a catchy song, and I tentatively like it with the reservation that I'm free to change my mind if it doesn't bear up under repeated listenings, but that's it.

[murlough23]

To clarify: my world wasn't shattered because of the song's sheer awesomeness

That's because the song in question doesn't have any.

but because my previous position had been that anything by Green Day was unspeakably bad, and I would rather listen to commercials than a Green Day song.

Ironically, you've probably heard "American Idiot" in umpteen movie trailers and just not realized it.

It's a catchy song, and I tentatively like it with the reservation that I'm free to change my mind if it doesn't bear up under repeated listenings, but that's it.

I'm just sayin', get an idea of the band's range before you write them off completely. I know some of their early stuff was idiotic. American Idiot is where they sort of "grew up".

[Vlad!]

Ironically, you've probably heard "American Idiot" in umpteen movie trailers and just not realized it.

Just because I don't stop by this board all that much doesn't mean I'm completely ignorant. I know what American Idiot sounds like, and even if I didn't I know that Green Day has an album and a song entitled American Idiot, and the first line of the lyrics would probably clue me in. Yes, I've heard it and I don't like it.

I'm just sayin', get an idea of the band's range before you write them off completely. I know some of their early stuff was idiotic. American Idiot is where they sort of "grew up".

What do you think I did? Judge them by their name? Admittedly if you played me a random Green Day song I doubt I could tell you what album or band era it is from, but I could tell you whether I liked it or not, and until recently the answer has always been "not".

That's because the song in question doesn't have any.

It's always nice to know the supreme arbiter of musical quality. Next time I need to know my opinion of a song I'll be sure to ask you.

[bloop]

I think it's pretty easy to tell a Green Day song by Armstrong's voice alone. 

Some of the work before they "grew up" was pretty good, too, and often kind of funny in an anti-social sort of way.

[spacebrat311]

my previous position had been that anything by Green Day was unspeakably bad

Don't leave me alone out here.

[bloop]

One thing I really like about Vlad.  When he doesn't like something, it can't be ascribed to anything so crass as hipster backlash.  

Granted, I don't subscribe many of  his opinions about music, but Vlad thinks what he thinks.

[Vlad!]

One thing I really like about Vlad.  When he doesn't like something, it can't be ascribed to anything so crass as hipster backlash.   

Granted, I don't subscribe many of  his opinions about music, but Vlad thinks what he thinks.

Don't leave me alone out here.

I call 'em like I hear 'em, man. Don't let anyone make you feel bad about liking or not liking something. My "catchy song" may be your "I'm going to rip the radio out if I hear this one more time", and that's OK.

[spacebrat311]

I'm not going to change my opinion or feel bad because no one else is sharing it. It's just nice to have someone to agree with is all. I'm not contrarian enough to enjoy disagreeing with everyone just for the sake of disagreeing with everyone.

[murlough23]

Just because I don't stop by this board all that much doesn't mean I'm completely ignorant. I know what American Idiot sounds like, and even if I didn't I know that Green Day has an album and a song entitled American Idiot, and the first line of the lyrics would probably clue me in. Yes, I've heard it and I don't like it.

Dude, I'm not going on the offensive here. I'm heard the song in movie trailers without any of the lyrics - just the guitar riff over and over, mainly. That's why I thought you might not have realized you'd heard it, though if you'd heard it on the radio in addition to that, obviously you'd recognize it. I just found the juxtaposition of the commercials you'd rather listen to and Green Day's music amusing.

What do you think I did? Judge them by their name? Admittedly if you played me a random Green Day song I doubt I could tell you what album or band era it is from, but I could tell you whether I liked it or not, and until recently the answer has always been "not".

Here I'm just saying, there are better examples of their work I could give you, but I suppose now I've just got you primed to hate anything they do just 'cause you're annoyed with me.

It's always nice to know the supreme arbiter of musical quality. Next time I need to know my opinion of a song I'll be sure to ask you.

I'm not sure what you're miffed about here. Your own opinion was that the song was OK enough to make you not hate it. I didn't get the impression that you thought it was awesome, so by stating myself that it wasn't awesome, I figured I was just agreeing with you and illustrating why it made sense for you to not be completely blown away by that particular song.

The bottom line here is that I honestly don't expect a mildly positive reaction to one song to make you fall in love with the band or anything, but that I think it might be nice if you heard an example or two of the stylistic variation on their latest album. I'll Pub a track or two. If you hate 'em, that's fine.

[Vlad!]

Here I'm just saying, there are better examples of their work I could give you, but I suppose now I've just got you primed to hate anything they do just 'cause you're annoyed with me.

I wouldn't consciously alter my opinion on a song just to spite someone on the Internet. I certainly might be more critical because it's a band I know I don't like rather than some band I've never heard of, but that seems like a reasonable attitude.

I'm not sure what you're miffed about here. Your own opinion was that the song was OK enough to make you not hate it. I didn't get the impression that you thought it was awesome, so by stating myself that it wasn't awesome, I figured I was just agreeing with you and illustrating why it made sense for you to not be completely blown away by that particular song.

I'm used to hearing "you fail at life because of your taste in music" in music threads, so I read that into your comments. Apparently it wasn't actually there. Sorry.

The bottom line here is that I honestly don't expect a mildly positive reaction to one song to make you fall in love with the band or anything, but that I think it might be nice if you heard an example or two of the stylistic variation on their latest album. I'll Pub a track or two. If you hate 'em, that's fine.

If you Pub 'em I'll listen to 'em. It's a win-win for me; if I like them then maybe I'll like 21st Century Breakdown and I'm all in favor of rock operas, and if I don't like them then my opinion of the band is vindicated in my mind.

[murlough23]

I wouldn't consciously alter my opinion on a song just to spite someone on the Internet. I certainly might be more critical because it's a band I know I don't like rather than some band I've never heard of, but that seems like a reasonable attitude.

I just figured it might be hard to keep an open mind if you thought I was taking the "you fail at life because of your taste in music" approach. I've certainly been primed not to like stuff when I thought people were taking that attitude with me. Now that we've established it's not the case, hopefully that won't be an issue.

And just so we have some context here, I think American Idiot is a great album, but one that I could easily see turning a lot of people off because (a) it's too poppy, (b) it's too political, (c) they swear a lot, (d) they're trying to be too ambitious with the rock opera stuff. There's a myriad of reasons why perfectly reasonable people wouldn't like it. 21st Century Breakdown is a reasonably good follow-up - more stylistic variance, but also more hit-and-miss and a potentially bit of a burden to a new listener due to its extreme length. If you liked AI, you'd probably like this as well, potentially even more depending on your opinion about the stylistic variance and/or the things they're pissed off about this time around. If you didn't like AI or weren't interested enough in AI's singles (which I feel were fairly representative) to want to hear the album, then this might be a bit of a crapshoot.

I'm used to hearing "you fail at life because of your taste in music" in music threads, so I read that into your comments. Apparently it wasn't actually there. Sorry.

Yeah, you might want to check your assumptions at the door. I will often give people a hard time for judging something without having really listened to it, but if you've paid attention to something and given it a fair chance and still don't like it, that's just your honest reaction and I think it's perfectly valid. Maybe disappointing if it's something I really love, but we all let each other down in that regard on a regular basis, and we just have to live with that.

I know very little about Green Day's past other than that they were a kind of snotty punk band who helped set the pop/punk mold that a lot of other popular bands followed, which is a double-edged sword, because that kind of music can be fun but it can get old fast. I only really got into the band when they sort of "grew up", and even now, they're still a bit snotty, they just discuss (arguably) weightier matters. My point in explaining all of this is to say that there's a good chance some or most of the stuff you heard before wasn't really all that good, and you not liking it makes perfect sense. (I really liked AI's singles, but I can see why you wouldn't - though I do hope you've given "Wake Me Up When September Ends" a fair chance.)

If you Pub 'em I'll listen to 'em. It's a win-win for me; if I like them then maybe I'll like 21st Century Breakdown and I'm all in favor of rock operas, and if I don't like them then my opinion of the band is vindicated in my mind.

I figure at least then you'll be able to make a more informed judgment. I was really disappointed that the two lead singles from this album were "Know Your Enemy", since I think it's an average song at best, and "21 Guns", which is downright horrible. I think there's so much more to offer here, and it's not like any of it is that much of a stretch for rock radio (other than the language issue, which they've worked around just fine in GD's past singles). I wouldn't want anyone to judge the album just based on those two songs.

I've upped "Before the Lobotomy", one of my favorite "rockers" from the album which is also sort of opera-ish due to the stylistic shift mid-song, and "Last Night on Earth", my favorite ballad from the album, which has "Queen" written all over the chord progression.

[bloop]

I'm used to hearing "you fail at life because of your taste in music" in music threads

I apologize if you've ever interpreted me that way.  While I never intend to come across that way, I know my general approach lends itself best to this sort of misinterpretation.

(I rather like your musical taste, judging by your pub selections)

[Vlad!]

though I do hope you've given "Wake Me Up When September Ends" a fair chance.

Actually, I kind of hate that song. It's a slow ballad that serves to illustrate Armstrong's whiny twang without injecting any energy into the mix, and it got (and still gets, to some extent) way overplayed.

I've upped "Before the Lobotomy", one of my favorite "rockers" from the album which is also sort of opera-ish due to the stylistic shift mid-song, and "Last Night on Earth", my favorite ballad from the album, which has "Queen" written all over the chord progression.

Last Night on Earth isn't really my style of music, but it also seemed to be absent the things that annoy me about Green Day in general. I don't know if Armstrong is consciously changing his voice to take the edge off or what, because if I were driving around and heard that song on the radio I wouldn't have immediately pegged it as Green Day. It's a perfectly adequate song and it could potentially grow on me, but I'm not really feelin' the ballad-type songs in general so I'm not the best judge in this case.

Before the Lobotomy, which I listened to second, started out in a similar vein, and I was forming about the same thoughts until it started rocking out at 1:20. On one hand, I like how this song rocks, but it also has hints of that punk/Green Day sound that turned me off of the band back when I was in high school. Also, Armstrong pronounces "refugees" weird and for some reason that grates on me. Toward the end of the song it sort of does this thing where he's singing as if it were a more melodic ballad but the band is still pounding its drum loop and guitar chord combo, and that kind of rubs me the wrong way for some reason (my inexperience at listening critically and reviewing music is no doubt showing here, because I'm struggling a bit to describe what's going on. Feel free to ignore it if it doesn't make sense). The parts of this song that I like, I like more than pretty much anything else of theirs I've heard, but the parts I don't like annoy me more than Last Night on Earth or Know Your Enemy.

I also listened to 21 Guns on Grooveshark. I liked it a lot less than Know Your Enemy: it combined the boring, soulless ballad with abrupt octave shifts that didn't sit well with me and a very repetitive, uninspiring refrain.

If I were tooling around town and 21 Guns or Last Night on Earth came on the radio, I would no doubt issue my standard proclamation of "boring!" and fiddle with the tuner until I got something with heavily distorted guitars and dudes growling into the microphone, but Before the Lobotomy and Know Your Enemy both have my "willing to listen" stamp of approval.

[Vlad!]

I apologize if you've ever interpreted me that way.  While I never intend to come across that way, I know my general approach lends itself best to this sort of misinterpretation.

The only time I got that sort of vibe from you was the post which prompted the Radiohead debacle, which I believe we hashed out to our (or at least my) satisfaction.

[bloop]

The only time I got that sort of vibe from you was the post which prompted the Radiohead debacle, which I believe we hashed out to our (or at least my) satisfaction.

If it wasn't hashed out to my satisfaction, I would remember more about it (I vaguely remember being misinterpreted, but I also know my most basic philosophy often finds itself at odds with others, so that probably played as well).  

Either that, or it was a debate I just didn't care about much.

[murlough23]

OK, now that I have time to deal with this discussion in detail again...

Actually, I kind of hate that song. It's a slow ballad that serves to illustrate Armstrong's whiny twang without injecting any energy into the mix, and it got (and still gets, to some extent) way overplayed.

I think the song strikes a pretty good balance between its quiet moments where you know something big is coming, and its more energetic moments. That said, it follows the "power ballad" template to a T. Either you like this kind of song or you don't. What elevates it above the norm for me is the chord progression (Green Day does the whole "descending into depression" thing with their melodies quite well when they want to) and the fact that it was obviously about something very personal for Armstrong.

Your comment about the "whiny twang" in Armstrong's voice illustrates what is probably your main problem with Green Day - you just can't get over the vocals. I thought maybe throwing more of a ballad-type song at you might get around what I thought was your objection at first - that he took more of the snotty punk rocker approach. But the issue isn't the tone of his voice so much as the voice itself. I can't throw stones here. I have a set of singers whose voices I just can't "get over". I'm the guy who can't listen to Bob Dylan, for crying out loud. But I actually like Armstrong's voice quite a bit. I can't find any logical reason for this; the sound of it just tickles my ear in some way that it apparently doesn't tickle yours.

Last Night on Earth isn't really my style of music, but it also seemed to be absent the things that annoy me about Green Day in general. I don't know if Armstrong is consciously changing his voice to take the edge off or what, because if I were driving around and heard that song on the radio I wouldn't have immediately pegged it as Green Day. It's a perfectly adequate song and it could potentially grow on me, but I'm not really feelin' the ballad-type songs in general so I'm not the best judge in this case.

I wasn't really sure what "your style of music" is (I'm especially confused now because the punk rock stuff isn't up your alley but you apparently also aren't a "slow song" kind of guy), but I'm glad you can see the merits regardless of the musical style. I was intentionally trying to give you a song that would be considered a laughingstock by pure punk rock standards, but that made me think, "Screw the genre purists, this is a good song", just to prove that the band can do more than one thing. If you don't like the band in either mode, then it may be a moot point.

Before the Lobotomy, which I listened to second, started out in a similar vein, and I was forming about the same thoughts until it started rocking out at 1:20.

I picked that one intentionally for that reason. it's more of a progressive/operatic song that has "sections". If I'd been feeling ambitious I might have uploaded something like "Jesus of Suburbia" from AI, but then I figured if you didn't like 4 minutes of Green Day, then you probably wouldn't appreciate 9.

I love the beginning of "Lobotomy" for much the same reason I love "September"... I think the chord progression and melody are to die for. They fit the lyrics extremely well, even if the lyrics may be too melancholy for their own good.

On one hand, I like how this song rocks, but it also has hints of that punk/Green Day sound that turned me off of the band back when I was in high school.

Anything up-tempo and rock-oriented that they do is probably going to bring to mind their punk influence. As much as they may color outside the lines of the genre, I don't think they have ever intended to completely lose that side of their musical persona. So again, this might be one of those things where if you don't like a genre, period, there isn't much a band influenced by that genre can do for you. But that's less the band's fault and more your personal preference. Personally, I only dislike punk when it's the very basic three-chord stuff that all sounds the same to my ears. Punk more or less started out as a response to some of the overblown prog rock stuff that was big in the 70's... there were musicians who just wanted to get back to the basics and give it more of an urgent edge or something like that. I like that it's possible to fuse the two musical styles, even if doing so is completely antithetical to the punk ideology.

Notice that the "rock" portion of this song has a very basic chord progression (probably only three or four chords in the whole thing), which is very "punk", yet it has an unorthodox time signature that bends and shifts a bit (I think it's alternating 3/4 and 4/4 with the occasional regular measure of 4/4), which is very much "not punk".

Also, Armstrong pronounces "refugees" weird and for some reason that grates on me.

I never even noticed that. How is one supposed to pronounce it? Maybe it's a California thing and I've been pronouncing it wrong all this time, too.

Toward the end of the song it sort of does this thing where he's singing as if it were a more melodic ballad but the band is still pounding its drum loop and guitar chord combo, and that kind of rubs me the wrong way for some reason (my inexperience at listening critically and reviewing music is no doubt showing here, because I'm struggling a bit to describe what's going on. Feel free to ignore it if it doesn't make sense).

I too have a low tolerance for just slamming on the same power chords, especially in more of a "ballad" type song, when something more creative could be done with the guitar instead. For this song, I'm fine with it since it's a short finale and basically just a musical variation on the song's intro. The finale of the song marries the harder energy of the song's midsection with the chord progression and lyrics from the intro. It brings it all back together.

That said, it took a few listens to the album as a whole for me to appreciate some of the sudden changes in tempo and/or musical style right smack in the middle of a song - at first this just seemed like a jerky way to tie together two completely unrelated pieces of music. There are a lot of recurring musical and lyrical motifs throughout the album that I'm still picking up after ten or so listens. So taking a track out of context might not make most of this apparent, and due to that, I can see why there might not be as much for you to appreciate. "Before the Lobotomy" is definitely not the kind of thing you'd hear on the radio unless it was a reasonably unorthodox radio station - your usual rock radio stations are going to be perfectly happy settling for "Know Your Enemy" and "21 Guns", which is their loss (though there are a few excellent single-worthy tracks on the album that don't "jump around" as much stylistically).

I also listened to 21 Guns on Grooveshark. I liked it a lot less than Know Your Enemy: it combined the boring, soulless ballad with abrupt octave shifts that didn't sit well with me and a very repetitive, uninspiring refrain.

Heh. Well, you can't say I didn't warn you.

If I were tooling around town and 21 Guns or Last Night on Earth came on the radio, I would no doubt issue my standard proclamation of "boring!" and fiddle with the tuner until I got something with heavily distorted guitars and dudes growling into the microphone, but Before the Lobotomy and Know Your Enemy both have my "willing to listen" stamp of approval.

At least we've established that not everything they do sucks. That's a start.

Hmmm, maybe while you're tooling around town, you should be listening to Tool.

[Vlad!]

Your comment about the "whiny twang" in Armstrong's voice illustrates what is probably your main problem with Green Day - you just can't get over the vocals. I thought maybe throwing more of a ballad-type song at you might get around what I thought was your objection at first - that he took more of the snotty punk rocker approach. But the issue isn't the tone of his voice so much as the voice itself. I can't throw stones here. I have a set of singers whose voices I just can't "get over". I'm the guy who can't listen to Bob Dylan, for crying out loud. But I actually like Armstrong's voice quite a bit. I can't find any logical reason for this; the sound of it just tickles my ear in some way that it apparently doesn't tickle yours.

Right, I don't know why it is. I thought it might be a grow-on thing because I had a lot of trouble getting into Rush at first because of Geddy Lee, but now I freaking love them. But I've had more exposure to GD than I have to Rush and I still dislike a lot of their stuff for approximately the same reasons I always have.

I wasn't really sure what "your style of music" is (I'm especially confused now because the punk rock stuff isn't up your alley but you apparently also aren't a "slow song" kind of guy), but I'm glad you can see the merits regardless of the musical style.

Slow songs are boring and punk rock is energetic in the wrong way. I like prog metal with its complex instrumentalism and high-octane sound. That's about as close as I can get to describing "my style of music" without pulling something in my brain.

I never even noticed that. How is one supposed to pronounce it? Maybe it's a California thing and I've been pronouncing it wrong all this time, too.

M-W has an audio pronunciation.

Heh. Well, you can't say I didn't warn you.

I checked it out because it seems like many of the songs you like the most exemplify some of the traits I like the least, so since I dug "Know Your Enemy" more than you, I thought maybe the ones you hated I would like and vice-versa. Apparently that turned out to be a false hypothesis.

At least we've established that not everything they do sucks. That's a start.

Although I might have said "everything they do sucks", I try to stop at "I dislike everything they do".

Hmmm, maybe while you're tooling around town, you should be listening to Tool.

Back when I was in Blacksburg the rock station there would sometimes play "Vicarious", which I like. The one around here only plays "The Pot", which I'm not a big fan of. Tool is pretty OK in my book overall, though (and yes, I realize it was a pun, but I am contractually obligated to overanalyze everything).

[murlough23]

Right, I don't know why it is. I thought it might be a grow-on thing because I had a lot of trouble getting into Rush at first because of Geddy Lee, but now I freaking love them. But I've had more exposure to GD than I have to Rush and I still dislike a lot of their stuff for approximately the same reasons I always have.

Some vocalists grow on you, others might not no matter how hard you try. It happens to me, too.

Slow songs are boring and punk rock is energetic in the wrong way.

I think you're selling a lot of music short with such gross over-generalization. But it's fine when applied to the examples discussed so far - so long as you're not just going "Ew, slow song" and tuning out early.

I like prog metal with its complex instrumentalism and high-octane sound. That's about as close as I can get to describing "my style of music" without pulling something in my brain.

There's a lot of good stuff that falls under that description, but you're probably gonna miss out on a lot if you like only that. (Not everything you've uploaded to the Pub had been prog-metal, so presumably you have interests aside from this.)

I checked it out because it seems like many of the songs you like the most exemplify some of the traits I like the least, so since I dug "Know Your Enemy" more than you, I thought maybe the ones you hated I would like and vice-versa. Apparently that turned out to be a false hypothesis.

Well, that's silly. No two music fans are complete polar opposites. Plus we've already established stuff in the past that we both like.

Although I might have said "everything they do sucks", I try to stop at "I dislike everything they do".

That's helpful, though now we know even this to not be true in the case of Green Day. (Not that marginally liking, or at least passively not hating, something changes things that much, but still, you don't dislike everything.)

Back when I was in Blacksburg the rock station there would sometimes play "Vicarious", which I like. The one around here only plays "The Pot", which I'm not a big fan of. Tool is pretty OK in my book overall, though (and yes, I realize it was a pun, but I am contractually obligated to overanalyze everything).

My opinions of these songs line up with yours. "Vicarious" is awesome. "The Pot" and most of the rest of 10,000 Days don't do much for me. But you should check out Lateralus. That is a monolithic prog-metal album, probably my favorite album of the year 2001, and a few other folks here will back me up on its quality. At the very least, if you like "Vicarious", you'll probably dig "Schism".

[Vlad!]

There's a lot of good stuff that falls under that description, but you're probably gonna miss out on a lot if you like only that. (Not everything you've uploaded to the Pub had been prog-metal, so presumably you have interests aside from this.)

Yeah, it's just a generalization.

Well, that's silly. No two music fans are complete polar opposites. Plus we've already established stuff in the past that we both like.

Sure, but I figured it might be the case for GD songs. Also, I was kind of interested in what a GD fan would consider to be a bad song of theirs.

That's helpful, though now we know even this to not be true in the case of Green Day. (Not that marginally liking, or at least passively not hating, something changes things that much, but still, you don't dislike everything.)

Right.

My opinions of these songs line up with yours. "Vicarious" is awesome. "The Pot" and most of the rest of 10,000 Days don't do much for me. But you should check out Lateralus. That is a monolithic prog-metal album, probably my favorite album of the year 2001, and a few other folks here will back me up on its quality. At the very least, if you like "Vicarious", you'll probably dig "Schism".

Yeah, I've listened to some of Lateralus and it's pretty sweet. I'll have to give Schism a listen; the only one I remember off the top of my head is the title track, and I thought it was pretty fancy.

[murlough23]

Yeah, I've listened to some of Lateralus and it's pretty sweet. I'll have to give Schism a listen; the only one I remember off the top of my head is the title track, and I thought it was pretty fancy.

It took me years to fully unravel and appreciate the complexity of the song "Lateralus". It is amazing. My favorites on that album are "Schism", "The Grudge", and "Parabola". You could probably find the music videos for "Schism" and "Parabola" on the web.

[Ian]

I find myself breaking out into Lipan Conjuring quite often o_O