Psychology/sociology experiment

[Vlad!]

I respectfully submit the following as a potentially interesting psychology experiment:

Create two moderately-sized groups of people, randomly selected. Split the members of each group up into rooms, one member per room. Each room has a computer in it. The members are given a difficult problem to solve, and a URL to go to for help. Members of group A are all given the same URL. Members of group B are given individualized URLs, and they are told that if they go to the URL, the test administrators will know who it was that needed help. There is no penalty for requesting help.

I'm curious as to whether members of group A would look up the help information more that group B. If my hypothesis is correct, knowing that the test administrators would know who is looking for help would deter members of group B from seeking help more than group A.

If any students in sociology or psychology are looking to get their names in a journal somewhere, I freely offer this as a method for doing so.

[enemy anemone]

interesting. I have observed that some sorts of people will not admit to not knowing something, even if they've already said/done something that gives away the fact that they didn't know it. they'll be like "I knew that...I was just joking...I did/said it on purpose..." and it's obvious they're lying. they would rather be lame like that than admit they didn't know. I don't get it, but it seems quite common. and I think such people would not want it to be known they used the URL.

I think if I were in group B, I would try to find the answer without using the URL, just for the challenge. even if I find an answer I will probably go to the URL to see what it says.

[Vlad!]

Upon further reflection, I have come up with a refinements that would make the experiment easier to set up: Instead of a tough problem (which introduces too many variables), use a very tedious problem that can be solved by anybody given enough time. The URL could contain either the entire solution to the problem or a hint to make it go a lot faster.

I suggest a cryptogram, along with instructions on how to solve a cryptogram (for those who weren't super-nerds as kids). These can be solved by anybody with enough patience, but the task can be made a lot easier by revealing several letter substitutions.

[enemy anemone]

hm. is your idea to test for laziness or quick-to-give-up-ness or for "don't want people to know I needed help"-ness? I have never been good at cryptograms beyond the easiest sort and get annoyed at them if they are "too hard". ("too hard" means that I can't tell just by looking at it what some of the letters are and from there figure out the whole thing without too much trial-and-error.) I also know people who hate and/or think they can't do any sort of puzzle like that. they just won't try. so that might be a problem.

[Vlad!]

The genesis of this proposed experiment is a friend, who for a party planned on sending out coded invitations with the time and location encoded on them as invitations. On each invitation would be an individualized URL, so she could see who needed help decoding them and then make fun of these people. My response was that I'm really lazy and would definitely just look up the answer or a hint, probably without even trying first by myself, but I would rather not be made fun of for doing so, and thus if I knew that the URL was individualized I would be less likely to use it. However, I started to wonder if perhaps my real motivation was just that I didn't want someone else to know that I had to get help. So I figured that I'm not significantly different from my fellow humans, and thus if it turned out that people were 50% less likely to get help if some person they didn't know and would probably never see again would find out then it's reasonably likely my motivations were the same.

[danny316]

-Redacted by Vlad!-.

Oh, it's on now. You need to name names (although I could probably guess already...)

...and I need to say that we're not as apathetic as we look, and that grad students more focused on dissertations are usually not very good instructors. There was one class I took this last semester where half the class stopped showing up about a week in - and many of them did better than I did on the final. The grad student teaching it had never taught before, didn't speak English well, and didn't stray far from the book - it was bad enough that people who read the book (which I didn't finish) did much better than people who attended class every day (which I did).

Some of the tenured profs do keep punchcards around, but I doubt anyone has many blanks laying around. I've toyed around with trying to create my own fake punchcard system based on index cards before - even less useful than real punchcards, but I figure the people willing to mess with my robotic experiments aren't going to be patient enough to want to give me a full punchcard worth of data anyway.

[enemy anemone]

the idea of inviting people to a party but making it difficult for them to figure out where and when it is, plus making fun of them if they didn't figure it out on their own, would annoy me. I'd probably be like "thanks for the bookmark" even if I know it is an encoded invitation.

[Vlad!]

Oh, it's on now. You need to name names (although I could probably guess already...)

Definitely not...she would probably disembowel me with a rusty spork for telling this story on the Internet and then associating her name with it. If I had known there were any state students reading this I wouldn't have given enough information that she could be identified. Also, note that the opinion of state students is mine, not hers.

...and I need to say that we're not as apathetic as we look, and that grad students more focused on dissertations are usually not very good instructors. There was one class I took this last semester where half the class stopped showing up about a week in - and many of them did better than I did on the final. The grad student teaching it had never taught before, didn't speak English well, and didn't stray far from the book - it was bad enough that people who read the book (which I didn't finish) did much better than people who attended class every day (which I did).

It's hard to defend your assertion that state students as a demographic are not apathetic when half the class stopped showing up. You can debate whether the apathy is entirely the fault of the students or whether the university bears some of the blame by foisting grad students on the poor undergrads regardless of teaching ability, though.

the idea of inviting people to a party but making it difficult for them to figure out where and when it is, plus making fun of them if they didn't figure it out on their own, would annoy me. I'd probably be like "thanks for the bookmark" even if I know it is an encoded invitation.

I think it's different when you know you're inviting nerdy computer scientists than when you're inviting people who have more normal perceptions of what constitutes fun. If I were in the right problem-solving mood I would definitely get a kick out of deciphering the invitation. Also, I think she planned on using the threat of being made fun of to discourage people like me from immediately shortcutting the problem and going to the URL (which now that I think about it suggests that she also, consciously or unconsciously, holds the same hypothesis vis a vis the results of the experiment).

[danny316]

Definitely not...she would probably disembowel me with a rusty spork for telling this story on the Internet and then associating her name with it. If I had known there were any state students reading this I wouldn't have given enough information that she could be identified.

Sorry about that - I guess it's generally safe to assume I won't crawl out of the Music forum here and over to Off-Topic, but I actually did yesterday. I vaguely recall pointing out that we live eerily close now back when you moved here, but I don't recall if I mentioned NC State in particular. It's a bit moot now, I graduated and got a job at a start-up this month.

...still, I think I know who it is anyway. The odds I'll actually see most of the people I know from there again are slim to nil anyway, though.

It's hard to defend your assertion that state students as a demographic are not apathetic when half the class stopped showing up. You can debate whether the apathy is entirely the fault of the students or whether the university bears some of the blame by foisting grad students on the poor undergrads regardless of teaching ability, though.

Personally, I think being astute enough and ahead of the assignments, textbook readings, and slides enough to spot the teacher staying extremely close to the book is an asset. They saved a ton of time in going to class - some of which was used for reading the book that turned out to be more helpful. I'm sure it looks like apathy to bystanders, but I'm all for maximizing resources instead of following arbitrary rules strictly (particularly where attendance isn't required, or even particularly encouraged in some classes).

The best counterargument to that approach I can think of is that the kids who read the book instead of going to class failed every pop quiz and never heard about an extra-credit opportunity.

I think it's different when you know you're inviting nerdy computer scientists than when you're inviting people who have more normal perceptions of what constitutes fun. If I were in the right problem-solving mood I would definitely get a kick out of deciphering the invitation. Also, I think she planned on using the threat of being made fun of to discourage people like me from immediately shortcutting the problem and going to the URL (which now that I think about it suggests that she also, consciously or unconsciously, holds the same hypothesis vis a vis the results of the experiment).

Was everyone warned of the mocking in advance?

[enemy anemone]

I think it's different when you know you're inviting nerdy computer scientists than when you're inviting people who have more normal perceptions of what constitutes fun. If I were in the right problem-solving mood I would definitely get a kick out of deciphering the invitation. Also, I think she planned on using the threat of being made fun of to discourage people like me from immediately shortcutting the problem and going to the URL (which now that I think about it suggests that she also, consciously or unconsciously, holds the same hypothesis vis a vis the results of the experiment).

okay, I can see the "mocked for getting help" as motivating competent people who would not want to be seen as incompetent. originally I thought your experiment asked people something they aren't expected to know. it wouldn't bother me to be mocked for not knowing something I can't reasonably be expected to know and getting help to find out. but I would think the mocker is dumb for thinking this was mock-worthy. it would kind of bother me to be mocked for "cheating" on something I should be able to do and is related to a specialty of mine. not sure if it would motivate me to do what the mocker wanted or if I'd be annoyed and ignore the whole business completely. probably the latter.

[Vlad!]

It's a bit moot now, I graduated and got a job at a start-up this month.

Cool, congrats!

Personally, I think being astute enough and ahead of the assignments, textbook readings, and slides enough to spot the teacher staying extremely close to the book is an asset. They saved a ton of time in going to class - some of which was used for reading the book that turned out to be more helpful. I'm sure it looks like apathy to bystanders, but I'm all for maximizing resources instead of following arbitrary rules strictly (particularly where attendance isn't required, or even particularly encouraged in some classes).

Sure. In the case where a teacher is teaching directly from the book and where attendance doesn't count, it's not apathetic to skip class and just teach yourself from the book. However, I know that my friend tried to make her class interesting and challenging, and students complained. They preferred an easy 'A', and for many of them their work showed that even when the class was designed to be relatively easy, the students often fail to do the assigned reading, to remember or comprehend the assigned reading, or to even engage their brains in class.

I know many NC State students who are not only competent but who actually excel in their field. It's very possible for good students to graduate from that university. But from what I've seen, the environment doesn't foster this sort of behavior, making it the exception. To be fair, I've seen the same thing at my own alma mater, especially outside the engineering department. I think the college of engineering cares enough about its reputation to weed out the apathetic fairly early on.

Was everyone warned of the mocking in advance?

I don't know if she planned on warning everyone in advance; I heard after the fact that she had planned to do it that way, but since she hadn't then the point is moot.