The Phorum
May 26, 2012, 08:05:59 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Spoon.
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register PhAQ  
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: Jennifer Knapp Returns?!  (Read 2183 times)
murlough23
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 13587


I'm different.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2010, 01:48:49 PM »

I was happier not knowing. I mean, it's obvious to me that most of Christendom is going to reject her for this, and I'm not even saying it should necessarily be excused without question... but someone's trying to be open and honest about her struggles, shouldn't fellow Christians show a little support and compassion? No, because gayness is a "special" sin that warrants more hatred than the others.
Logged
bloop
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 7220



View Profile
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2010, 01:56:28 PM »

Well, I know it'll be pulled from Christian bookstores, some publications won't review it, etc. etc., and that's frustrating.  Shouldn't such decisions be made based on content?
Logged

Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum

Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop
murlough23
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 13587


I'm different.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2010, 02:00:01 PM »

Well, I know it'll be pulled from Christian bookstores, some publications won't review it, etc. etc., and that's frustrating.  Shouldn't such decisions be made based on content?

Yeah, it is frustrating, but it's not at all surprising.

Besides, we know those decisions are really label-driven. Even if she hadn't come out, she still isn't on Gotee any more.

Personally, even though I'm still on the fence in the homosexuality debate, her coming out makes me anticipate that her music will strike me as more honest and transparent than it already did, even though I don't expect any of the songs to directly address the issue. I find that I relate more to Christian singers who make less of an attempt to hide their struggles.

NP: "The Saltwater Room", Owl City
Logged
spacebrat311
Phorumophile
******
Posts: 847



View Profile WWW
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2010, 04:07:30 AM »

I've been trying to get into the heads of Christians who are gay and trying to struggle through that honestly and still be part of a church or some other type of Christian community. I just want to know what their experiences are like and how we can make that environment less hostile for them while also seeking nothing less than the honest truth in our discussions of the issue.

I'm doing my undergrad theology thesis on just this. It's been really really hard.
Logged

sup.
murlough23
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 13587


I'm different.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2010, 01:51:48 PM »

I'm doing my undergrad theology thesis on just this. It's been really really hard.

When you figure it out, please let my pastor know. He's been wrestling with it, too. (I mean the how to love people and tell the truth part. Not with his own sexuality!)
Logged
Silvah
Phrequent Poster
***
Posts: 262


View Profile WWW
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2010, 09:34:32 AM »

Her Larry King Interview. Larry King is terrible at interviews (though he does, stick it to the pastor in the second video), but Jennifer is really awesome and definitely courageous.

Pt. 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xDWc7SvBOA
Pt. 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Pm_pPYkYA&annotation_id=annotation_187494&feature=iv
Pt. 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea98e609jeA&feature=related
Pt. 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnOJnHjgkI0&feature=related

« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 09:45:39 AM by Silvah » Logged
murlough23
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 13587


I'm different.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2010, 02:54:30 PM »

Random thoughts on the Jennifer Knapp interview:

1) Man, she got pretty tongue-tied trying to explain her position on this. I totally understand why she would. It's tough to explain the balance between respecting the authority of the Bible and explaining where you think people have traditionally interpreted it wrong.

2) Really, Jen? You're proud of Katy Perry? Why? I would think "I Kissed a Girl" and "Ur So Gay" would actually be quite offensive to someone who was gay for real.

3) I honestly don't know why they had to bring Katy Perry into this in the first place. She's just trying to play the bad girl, and rather embarrassingly so. This has nothing to do with Jennifer, aside from their previous business connection.

4) The pastor totally dodged Larry's question about how he knew he liked girls. It seemed pretty clear to me that it was something that was just natural for him, which was the point Larry was probably driving at.

5) "Adam and Steve"? Oh no, he didn't go there!

6) Glad to hear Jennifer finally getting into the issues with the English translations we've relied upon for so long. She's read some of the same stuff I have that first led to my doubts about what I've traditionally been taught here. I'm glad her decision resulted from this, and not from carelessly shrugging off a part of the Bible she didn't like.

7) For how "studied" this pastor is (as Jennifer herself admitted), he doesn't show his work all that much. He just kind of says, "This is what it is." OK, go through the logic that leads from the axioms to your specific premises.

8) Nice little zinger there, Jen, with the point about homosexuality being treated as a special sin. The pastor totally dodged that one, too.

9) To be fair to the pastor, "Go and sin no more" was something that I had thought about as well. In other words, a lot of other sins, we realize them and we do our best to not repeat them. Sexuality, on the other hand, influences who you want to be with long-term, so if this was a sin you were trying to repent of, you obviously wouldn't remain in a relationship. In that sense, it's not a "special" sin, but being a practicing homosexual would be something akin to lying or cheating or those other things that Jennifer mentioned, doing them continuously and as a standard practice, and not feeling any remorse over them. (I hate having to play devil's advocate, but fair's fair.)

10) My above observation leads to a question I've struggled with before - can you still be saved if you've got some sort of sin habit that you either can't get over, or don't even realize/accept its status as a sin?

11) Extremely presumptuous of the pastor, assuming Jen was outside Christian community just because she was in Australia.

12) Four fingers? WTF, Larry?

Overall: That was fascinating, and not the total trainwreck I was expecting. It's unfortunate that her issues with translation did not get explored more specifically. The hand-waving explanation of "the Bible is inspired" does not cover all translations of it into all languages, or at least, not without some explanation of why this is so. That's the crux of the issue, and I have yet to see anyone address this logically. I think people are afraid to, because they're worried that if you throw traditional interpretations of thorny issues like this into doubt, then you throw their whole Bible into doubt. They think it's just an excuse for folks to throw out the teachings of the Bible entirely, which I can see is not what Jen's trying to do here.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 03:04:24 PM by murlough23 » Logged
bloop
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 7220



View Profile
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2010, 04:04:09 PM »

Ted Haggard comes off quite well here.  Weird.
Logged

Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum

Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop
murlough23
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 13587


I'm different.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2010, 04:08:59 PM »

Ted Haggard comes off quite well here.  Weird.

He meant well, but he was extremely broad, as if calculating his answers to avoid getting the other pastor on his case. I appreciated that Haggard was contrite and understanding toward Jennifer (those who recognize how far they have fallen tend to be more gracious when others are perceived to have fallen). But just because you don't want to point fingers doesn't mean you can't take a clear theological position. (Admitting you don't know yet what position to take is fine... but he just kind of hand-waved his way through most of it.
Logged
bloop
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 7220



View Profile
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2010, 04:16:12 PM »

I thought he was trying to steer it away from the topic as stated, and focus it more on the relationship aspect of Christianity rather than the dos and do nots.  I could appreciate someone there looking at it from a broader perspective to what matters more.  I might get a headache if they started talking about this and that Greek word for 40 minutes (not that this wouldn't be interesting).
Logged

Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum

Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop
murlough23
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 13587


I'm different.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2010, 05:04:17 PM »

I thought he was trying to steer it away from the topic as stated, and focus it more on the relationship aspect of Christianity rather than the dos and do nots.

I guess I can appreciate that as on overarching sentiment - regardless of whether this thing is a sin, we still need to recognize that Jesus loves folks who do it and love them the same. I guess where it didn't quite sit right with me is that "How do you feel about this?" got emphasized over "What does the Bible actually say?" To be fair, the goal of King's program isn't to interpret a religious text, but to get his guests to express their viewpoints in a way that will interest listeners. But still, since the stated topic was "Can you be gay and Christian?", it seemed to make sense to pursue that within the confines of what Christianity actually teaches, not just how folks feel about it. (I do realize the issue here is that there are different schools of thought on this subject among Christians. But still, we don't invite folks who have been to seminary onto such programs just to have them tell us about their feelings.)

I could appreciate someone there looking at it from a broader perspective to what matters more.

Being able to love someone regardless of their actions, and not pronounce condemnation upon them, is certainly the most important thing here. I don't mean to diminish that.

I might get a headache if they started talking about this and that Greek word for 40 minutes (not that this wouldn't be interesting).

Perhaps it was beyond the scope of the program. I believe Haggard made some sort of a comment toward the end that we were never gonna figure this out. I'm not 100% sure it's unknowable, but I certainly didn't expect to get the answer within a 40-minute television program.

Still, it was annoying that Jennifer started to go into what she believed were solid reasons backing up her life choices, and that whole line of conversation just got shut down. There is a HUGE difference between "I've decided to be openly gay because the Bible is outdated and I don't care what it says" (which is not what Jennifer is saying, but how a lot of evangelical commentators will undoubtedly characterize it), and "I've decidedly to be openly gay because I have studied the Bible quite carefully and I am not convinced that homosexuality is prohibited by its teachings."

The reason this bugs me is because I feel like there were folks at the concert I went to (not Jennifer herself, but her opening act and several of the fans present) seemed to have an attitude of taking the freedom too far - in other words, "If it's OK to be gay, then we can just throw out the other things we don't like - we can use offensive language, we can get drunk and raise hell, etc." (Things which, within moderation, might be reasonable - meaning of things said to/about people rather than word counts, accountability to not do stupid things like driving while drunk or acting like an ass to people, etc.) I feel like they may have misconstrued that Jennifer was condoning just doing whatever feels good, when in fact I still see within her a desire to really know and take seriously the things that God asks of her. She still believes that there is a such thing as sin, and that she commits many sins daily (her sexual orientation just isn't one of 'em). This view of herself permeates her music. I'd hate for people to miss out on that and misinterpret her coming out as license to disregard other things that the Bible teaches.

There's still grace for those who follow none of the rules, of course. The rules aren't there to earn you salvation. But they are there to guide you to a better quality of life once you've accepted the grace that was freely offered. We may disagree on what those rules are and what the exact consequences are if you fail to follow them, but they do still exist and should be taken seriously.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 05:07:17 PM by murlough23 » Logged
ewok20t3
Phorumophile
******
Posts: 968



View Profile
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2010, 08:47:04 PM »

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/mediaculture/2512/come_out_from_among_them:_christian_music_meets_its_gay_stars/

This link talks about Knapp and other gay christian artists. I had no clue Ray Boltz, Tonex, and Kirk Talley came out.
Logged

murlough23
Phorum Phenomenon
***********
Posts: 13587


I'm different.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2010, 02:37:34 AM »

My review of Letting Go. I tried to make it about the music and not the morality, but the pull was quite strong.

http://www.epinions.com/content_512502894212
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2006, Simple Machines