I'll have to condense my responses to Chris's various post. Here goes...
If Christians are going to say that homosexuality is a sin, I think it needs to be made clear that they are referring to homosexual acts, which includes lust, but not merely feelings of attraction (unless they truly believe that such are sinful).
I've heard the arguments from all sides on this one - are the feelings wrong or just the acts? Depends on the interpretation. It would interesting to get at what the meat of the language is really saying here - the Bible specifically says for a man not to lie with a man in the Old Testament, but if you really want to be stubborn, it doesn't say anything about what happens if they're not having sex, or what happens if it's two women. Other passages seem to refer more to orientation than actual activities (and I think women are mentioned once somewhere), but there are questions of translation bias there - was this really meant to refer to all homosexuals, across the board?
They may become convinced that their very existence is contrary to the will of God. This has the potential to completely erode their self-worth and sense of value as a person, which could lead to self-destructive behavior, even suicide. Everyone needs to know that Jesus died for them, wants to have a relationship with them, and has a plan for their life. That means everyone.
It is indeed tough to reconcile that if you're made to believe you were born with a predisposition to do something that God commands you not to do. Again, this is where my substance addiction comparison might come in handy. If my dad was an alcoholic and I was born with a predisposition towards abusing alcohol, is that the way God made me? If so, do I go to hell automatically if I become a drunk later in life and don't kick the habit before dying? If I believe in Jesus, but never specifically repent of my alcoholism, what about that?
While I believe that same-sex attraction is not a choice, identifying as gay, becoming sexually active with the same sex, and pursuing romantic relationships with the same sex are choices.
This is why some would argue that they can be saved by choosing discipline and remaining celibate. Some would say that's a cross to bear just as the alcoholic has to avoid all alcohol when for the rest of us, having a social drink isn't a big deal. I'm not sure I agree with this argument, but wanted to make sure it was presented all the same.
Personally, I do not believe that such are part of God's plan, and I believe that celibacy is called for people with these attractions. I also believe that homosexual people who choose this path need to be respected.
I respect that, too. I respect having the courage just to say something at all. I'm a little nervous when someone claims to be a gay Christian and just sort of seems to be casting aside or ignoring the apparent contradictions that they need to deal with there. If you think you've got cause to believe it's not a sin, I'm all ears, but please show your work.
...and the gay community who wants them to tell the Christians to get stuffed!
Yeah, literally.
There is also the choice to actively try to change sexual orientation. I am not convinced that such works, and I am not convinced that such is required by God. I believe that such should only be pursued if the individual feels a specific calling from God to do so.
Which could just mean God made you bi, if I want to play Devil's advocate here.
I think there can be a sense of finality to doing such, that declaring "I am gay" may mean that one is not open to God's ability to change, even if it seems impossible. That is up to the individual to decide, along with these other choices.
I wouldn't say it's an issue of not being open to God's ability to change it. I think it has more to do with believing God
wants to change it. I know in my own life, I can pray for miraculous things such as healings when they are medically impossible and believe that God
can do these things, but my question is always, "Does God
want to do this?" Sometimes people pray really hard and healings don't happen; I must assume in those cases that it wasn't God's plan for that person to be healed. So I could see how a gay person might believe, "I'm this way for a reason and I shouldn't fight it." That's not a logical proof that this is so, but it isn't a doubt in God's power, either.
This life is supposed to be spent seeking and doing the will of God, not necessarily following our feelings.
Sure. We're not here just to get however we want. And perhaps not even the things that we were "born" to crave are all things we should want. (Though if you're gonna take that line, you can no longer use the whole apologetic argument that thirst proves the existence of water, etc.) But I think all humans are born with an insatiably strong desire to be known deeply and to be in some sort of intimate relationship (not just of the sexual variety, though for most of us, let's be honest, that's a component of it). To tell someone all they're ever allowed to have is platonic friends is a pretty tall order.
Thanks for the article. B. David's past seems similar to Donnie McClurkin's (and Tonex's, actually). Sexual abuse in childhood raised an awareness that shouldn't have been there at the time. Only they can answer whether the trauma suffered contributed to their homosexual feelings, and their decision to become sexually active with other men. (McClurkin said yes, Tonex said no, B. David... sort of.)
I think there are folks who are gay who haven't been abused, though, so sometimes I wonder if we go to this well a bit too quickly. I used to think people only "turned" gay because of a tumultuous upbringing and/or being extremely hurt by the opposite sex, but I've met folks who are gay and have experienced neither of these things. And there are also people who have been abused by an older person of the same sex while young who have not struggled with same-sex attraction. I suppose it
could contribute, but if you're born with it, then this is a bit of a conundrum.
Call me cynical, but I'm starting to think that a lot of these ex-gays are really bi, and maybe life experience can contribute to which type of people you're attracted to at different stages, somewhat like how I used to really have a thing for blondes in high school and then I really started liking Asian girls in college. (Not the same thing, I know.)
Regarding why people are allowed to have attractions that they are not allowed to act upon: I don't have a great answer for this one, other than people are allowed to be tempted in different ways than others.
This would seem to suggest that God Himself didn't "make" a gay person that way, but just as the God who made me attracted to women doesn't physically prevent Satan from tempting me to be attracted to women other than my wife, He doesn't prevent the temptation of same-sex attractions, either. I can see how that explanation might make sense. Not a big fan of it, but I have no direct evidence to refute it.
But yeah, if you're dealing with that, you'd think people in the Church should care for you and support you through it like they would if you were trying to kick drugs, rather than ostracizing you. (How should they deal with you if you're on drugs and
not trying to kick them? Hmmm.)
Regarding people being unable to help something they are born with: I'm not certain that the causes for homosexuality are entirely inborn. If this were entirely genetic, for example, identical twins should both have the same sexual orientation, because they have identical DNA.
Not all identical twins like the same things, though. The same appearance doesn't always guarantee the same brainwaves, I'm assuming.
While there is a correlation (identical male twins are 52% likely to both be gay), it is not nearly always the case.
Please explain that number - I'm pretty sure that way less than half of the identical twins in this world are gay.
I think that the circumstances in which someone was raised, and events which occur in life can play a factor. My issue with unequivocally saying "born that way" is that it is often accompanied by the corollary "therefore, change is impossible."
I'm merely acknowledging what science is showing to be a strong possibility. It hasn't been altogether proven yet. All we know is that it's a very difficult thing to change, and that people have been made to feel pretty darn awful for their seeming inability to change it.
The real question here on a theological level is whether God lets you be "born with" stuff that was not of His choosing.
Perhaps bisexual people can become so guilt-ridden, anxious and obsessed with these feelings that their attention could be swayed entirely in one direction? Just an idea.
Hey, if you can pick which team to play for, I can see some folks rationalizing playing for the team that's most likely to win. Maybe it's a conscious decision, maybe it's more of a subconscious thing - hit button A and get zapped enough times, you'll instinctively learn to reach for button B.
The major problem with the church in general is that everything regarding dealing with this issue is entirely backwards. This should be something about which someone should be able to seek counseling immediately, but the perception of the church's reaction is so ubiquitously negative, someone may be struggling alone for years before gaining the confidence to tell anyone.
The first thing we need to get over is the glee with which some of us declare that certain folks are going to Hell. It's been proven to usually make others feel like they want no part in our beliefs. Maybe it is the theological truth that people who never repent of the sins they struggle with can lose their salvation - I've yet to see a satisfying answer to that question one way or another. But my first thought should be, "I don't want that person to cease believing in Jesus because of this. Jesus can overcome their struggle and can love them even if that struggle is never overcome." I've got plenty of sins that I'm being stubborn about, that God is still working on. He seems to reveal new ones to me (that have been there all along, but I was just too clueless to recognize) with alarming regularity. I know He loves me no less. I know where I still expect to go when I die. My understanding this should theoretically allow me to approach a gay Christian or a gay seeker with some measure of humility.
The second thing we need to get over is the temptation to offer all of the easy answers. Frankly I think some deeper study of the Bible is going to be required, and even then we may have to accept that the answers as they apply in the real world are not as easily knowable as we had cracked them up to be. I still believe in an absolute truth; I just have the funny feeling that we're settling for a surface-scratching version of it when we assume certain obscure Greek or Hebrew words and phrases must mean all forms of homosexuality or even vaguely resembling the opposite sex in some mannerism. (Affeminate? Is that really the best some translations can do?)
