Music formats

[Vlad!]

I think one of bloop's many issues is that he's a quality snob and is of the mistaken impression that analog is superior to digital. If he's buying music, it had better be etched on a disc bigger than your head. So while normal human beings may appreciate the buffet-style subscription services that Napster, et. al. offer, if bloop's going to pay for music, it will be in a format that was obsolete before I was born.

(bloop, sorry for ragging on you and your idiosyncrasies. It's not my fault you're a freak. Much love ).

[murlough23]

I think one of bloop's many issues is that he's a quality snob and is of the mistaken impression that analog is superior to digital.

I don't really get this myself, but there are many different factors which affect the listening experience, and different sonic qualities that careful listeners like to emphasize. If you've had a better time with vinyl, you're likely to want to continue buying vinyl. Personally, I generally don't notice the loss between a CD and an mp3 (unless it's really low quality like 96 kbps), but then I don't have awesome speakers either, so my snobbishness only extends to always keeping the car windows rolled up and fiddling with the EQ settings. I figure we'll all going to arrive a slightly different customized configuration that best enhances our listening experience. If physical formats are better for some folks than digital, then great, that encourages those folks to shell out cash for actual CDs or vinyl.

NP: "Spring Is Coming", Steven Curtis Chapman

[bloop]

lol, Vlad.  I'll answer as seriously as I can.

I think one of bloop's many issues is that he's a quality snob and is of the mistaken impression that analog is superior to digital.

I'm under no such impression, but I do like it more than most to a point where an increasing percentage of my music purchases are in that format.  CD vs. vinyl is something of a judgment call - each have their advantages.  CDs have the portability and durability advantage, and they're much easier to get on my iPod, vinyl the huge artwork and tactile advantage (I kind of like their fussiness).  Vinyl tends to be mastered more reasonably (see:  loudness war), and I also like the bargain hunting aspect with vinyl.  You can often get some very good classic albums very cheaply (it's the new ones that are expensive).  SACD is probably my favorite format just for the audio quality, but not a lot is released in the format.

I do know that all aforementioned formats are superior to 128 kbps mp3 files.  192 kbps is generally quite transparent to me, so iTunes files are fine being that they're better than that.  The limitation there is hard disk space.

If he's buying music, it had better be etched on a disc bigger than your head. So while normal human beings may appreciate the buffet-style subscription services that Napster, et. al. offer, if bloop's going to pay for music, it will be in a format that was obsolete before I was born.

I haven't gotten to those wax cylinders yet.

[Vlad!]

SACD is probably my favorite format just for the audio quality, but not a lot is released in the format.

Yay, another Sony proprietary format that never took off.

The limitation there is hard disk space.

I realize that this is quite the tangent, but last I checked, this is 2010. Disk space is practically free. For the price of just a couple of your LPs you can get a hard drive big enough to hold your entire audio collection encoded losslessly.

I haven't gotten to those wax cylinders yet.

I hear it's the next big thing. If you want to keep your rep as a music format snob, you've gotta keep up, man.

[bloop]

Yay, another Sony proprietary format that never took off.

Well, it's not gone.  Classical and jazz people still love the format.  I like it more for the surround aspect than anything else, but they do sound quite nice.

The CD itself was a Phillips/Sony thing, btw.

I realize that this is quite the tangent, but last I checked, this is 2010. Disk space is practically free. For the price of just a couple of your LPs you can get a hard drive big enough to hold your entire audio collection encoded losslessly.

For $2.00 I can get this? 

I have a pretty large external hdd.

[murlough23]

I wasn't under the impression that hard drives were cheap. Maybe they are, relatively speaking, if you're a geek shopping at Fry's and you know how to install it yourself.

NP: "Eat, Sleep, Repeat", Copeland

[bloop]

1 TB internals cost less than $100, 500 GB are around $50.  Not at all bad, but more than two of my LPs.   

[Vlad!]

I have some opinions on this matter, but I regret bringing it up. This thread is really about downloading music.

(Next time I start a sentence with "I realize this is quite the tangent", I should take that as a warning sign).

[bloop]

Yeah, but the question posed in the thread was answered in the first few posts. 

Thread split?

[murlough23]

Having answered the original question, I vote we change the title to "Is it moral to download out of print music?" (We might not even need the "out of print" qualifier any more.)

NP: "I'm a Sucker for a Kind Word", Copeland

[Vlad!]

I like the original title for the original thread. But I have split this one.

A bibliography of this topic in the past, as compiled by me using the search function in about five minutes:
http://www.thephorum.net/index.php/topic,4039.0.html
http://www.thephorum.net/index.php/topic,3951.0.html
http://www.thephorum.net/index.php/topic,1317.0.html (Some posts were eaten by the conversion from IPB to SMF on this one...le sigh.

[ewok20t3]

Having answered the original question, I vote we change the title to "Is it moral to download out of print music?" (We might not even need the "out of print" qualifier any more.)

I like the original title for the original thread. But I have split this one.

Feel free to change the title of the original thread if people want to continue discussing morals and downloading. It won't hurt my feelings. 

[Vlad!]

1 TB internals cost less than $100, 500 GB are around $50.  Not at all bad, but more than two of my LPs.  

Depends which LPs, I suppose, since most of the LP releases I've seen have been in the $25 range. Not that I've seen a lot of LP releases.

I wasn't under the impression that hard drives were cheap. Maybe they are, relatively speaking, if you're a geek shopping at Fry's and you know how to install it yourself.

Installing a hard drive yourself is like changing a burnt-out headlight in your car. It doesn't really require any special knowledge or skill beyond basic literacy and the ability to follow instructions.

[murlough23]

Installing a hard drive yourself is like changing a burnt-out headlight in your car.

Which I also pay people to do. I don't have the time to take crap apart; I'm terrified I won't put it back together properly.

[Vlad!]

Feel free to change the title of the original thread if people want to continue discussing morals and downloading. It won't hurt my feelings.  

It wasn't because I was afraid of hurting your feelings, it was because, as bloop pointed out, we do not necessarily come from the legal positivist camp, and discussions about legality will frequently bleed over into discussions about morality and ethics.

Which I also pay people to do. I don't have the time to take crap apart; I'm terrified I won't put it back together properly.

Dude, that's pretty gimpy. I'm just sayin. I'm pretty much the least-skilled person ever when it comes to automobiles, and I replace my headlights in the parking lot of the Autozone where I buy the bulbs in about two minutes.

[bloop]

I trust myself to put in a hd, but I haven't done that in a while.  If I found out I could install my external hd internally, I would do it in a heartbeat.  USB isn't ideal.

I confess I don't trust myself with anything to do with cars, but I could probably get the confidence for headlights or an oil change.

[murlough23]

Dude, that's pretty gimpy. I'm just sayin. I'm pretty much the least-skilled person ever when it comes to automobiles, and I replace my headlights in the parking lot of the Autozone where I buy the bulbs in about two minutes.

Oh, I've replaced the bulbs. I misunderstood. I had headlights that kept burning out prematurely, though, and I didn't know what to do about that, so I had a mechanic replace the wiring.

Still, that's easier than opening up a computer shell and messing with its guts. I had a friend put my old hard drive in next to my new drive when I got my new computer 2 years ago, so I could transfer the old data. Didn't look like a procedure I could easily replicate. I'm especially paranoid with computer hardware, particularly when there are warranties to be voided.

[Vlad!]

It's actually not. I intentionally chose the headlight analogy because it's approximately the same amount of work. Actually, the headlight is more work, because it requires you to remove the old headlight first. Just slide the drive into the slot, screw it in, and insert the two wires, each of which can only be inserted one way (the correct way).

Solid state disks even remove the "screw it in" step. My desktop uses an SSD, and it's just hanging there at the end of the SATA cable. Technically this can even be done while the computer is still running since Serial ATA is a hotplug specification, but consumer-grade SATA controllers don't support hotplug (it's not that anything will break, but your OS won't see the drive until you reboot).

[murlough23]

Sorry; I have to have a person physically show me this stuff before I'm comfortable doing it on my own. I'm a visual learner. Even if it seems easy to you because you could do this stuff in your sleep.

Getting back to music formats, I've never been particularly snobbish about them because I've never really invested in a kickass sound system anyway. So 128 kbps is fine with me, though by default I tend to rip everything at 192 (and down-convert downloads that had higher bitrates to save space). I used to have a bunch of stuff ripped at 96 because that was the default option in a much older ripping application and I was too lazy to notice/change it until I imported it all to my iPod and noticed the distinct difference in sound quality. Then I re-ripped all that stuff at 192 and found that the iPod would play the songs halfway through and then quit (having correctly ascertained that the file info changed but incorrectly assuming that the file size was still the same). So I had to wipe my iTunes library and re-import all that stuff. What a pain!

I've noticed recently that CDs sound markedly different from the same songs on my iPod when played in my car. I'm not sure if it's old stereo speakers in my car (possible; I've never had them replaced in nearly 5 years of owning that car), or if it's an issue of competing EQ settings on both the car stereo and iPod causing the levels to max out. (For example, I might be getting a fuzzy sound if both devices are attempting to boost the bass.) I realize the car is a less than ideal listening environment, especially for quieter stuff with more dynamic range, or a lot of piano, etc. But it's about the only place I'm not listening on headphones (and only because it's not legal and not a wise thing to do while driving). So I'm still trying to find that balance where I can hear everything reasonably clearly at city street speeds, without maxing out any of the levels and creating "fuzz". It's like trying to put the lid on old Tupperware - fix one problem, another element seems to drop out of the sound.

I wonder sometimes if there are subtle qualities to the sound of certain albums that I'm just plain not hearing, or at least not hearing with the intended emphasis, and as a result I'm not nearly as impressed by them as some of you guys are. One would think that the more overt qualities of the sound and the songwriting would trump these subtleties, but then, there are some indie/ambient type albums I really enjoy where the subtleties make all the difference.

NP: "Red Eyes", Switchfoot

[bloop]

Digital is obviously the, um, present, and I'd expect that audiophile quality concerns will only be alleviated further by the constantly increasing disc sizes, making lossless more available, improving the bitrate even further with increases in bandwidth, but I think there may always be a market for the physical formats.  It'd be nice to have the price make sense with the fact that you don't have to ship it.

I've noticed recently that CDs sound markedly different from the same songs on my iPod when played in my car.

I think a good argument can be made that transducers influence the sound more than format.

[murlough23]

Transducers?

[bloop]

You mentioned your car speakers.  Sorry about my geekiness.   

[murlough23]

You mentioned your car speakers.  Sorry about my geekiness.   

Sorry about my lack of it. I just don't know what those are.

[bloop]

I'd think working for NASA would negate anything that might harm your geek cred.

[murlough23]

I'd think working for NASA would negate anything that might harm your geek cred.

My geekiness ends where things stop being digital and start being tactile.

[bloop]

I wonder sometimes if there are subtle qualities to the sound of certain albums that I'm just plain not hearing, or at least not hearing with the intended emphasis, and as a result I'm not nearly as impressed by them as some of you guys are. One would think that the more overt qualities of the sound and the songwriting would trump these subtleties, but then, there are some indie/ambient type albums I really enjoy where the subtleties make all the difference.

While different speakers/headphones emphasize different things, I doubt they'd be enough to make you go from disliking to liking an album, or v.v.

[murlough23]

While different speakers/headphones emphasize different things, I doubt they'd be enough to make you go from disliking to liking an album, or v.v.

Maybe not. I have noticed that an album which seems dynamic in one context can sometimes feel flat in another, but maybe it was just my mood on the given day. I asked about it because you brought it up once in the context of the "Are we listening to the same album?" discussion. It made me think about stuff like Zaireeka, where due to different sound systems (and in that case, timing), nobody's listening to the same album.

[bloop]

Zaireeka is the perfect candidate for a good SACD or DVD-A release.  That might take away from the listening party intentions of the album, though.

[bloop]

hmm...interesting.

No one here is into cassettes, right?  This one really is just strange to me.

[ewok20t3]

hmm...interesting.

No one here is into cassettes, right?  This one really is just strange to me.

I really hope cassettes don't make a comeback. I love vinyl, Cd's, and mp3's, but cassette's are nothing but annoying. I can understand bands releasing cassettes as a collector's item I guess, but I would hope they would release it in another format as well. I just don't see myself listening to a cassette again. I would have to really love the band and the cassette to be the only way of hearing the music recorded on it. I didn't read the whole article, but I agree...It's just strange.


On a somewhat related note. The very influential hardcore album, The Advent of A Miracle by Strongarm, is being released on vinyl this March/April! I'm going to have to see if I can I can be one of the lucky 500 to get my hands on that!

[murlough23]

I was one of the last holdouts to convert from cassettes to CDs. It happened in late 1998 when I finally got a combo cassette/CD boombox and people knew I had it, so they bought me CDs as Christmas gifts. I don't know why I didn't make the switch sooner. I think it was part frugality and part anal retentiveness.

Man, there's nothing more frustrating than having your cassette get "eaten" when the tape becomes just a slight bit unspooled or the player derails it. I don't understand why anyone would still prefer the format, as I highly doubt the sound quality is superior like people claim with vinyl.

[bloop]

It seems some of the artists that are into cassettes like them because they are inferior.  In their heyday, though, it was that or radio in the car, and I can understand the album rather than song-oriented aspect of the format itself, but I don't see a major cassette comeback anytime soon.

[murlough23]

It seems some of the artists that are into cassettes like them because they are inferior.

Indeed. Championing the inferior for the humor or irony of it (or just for the nostalgia) seems to be the trend of our modern age.