Tipping (is not a city in China)

[murlough23]

You know what doesn't make sense to me? Tipping. I don't mean the practice of giving money specifically to wait staff or other folks who perform menial tasks for which you're giving the bulk of your payment to their employer and not directly to them. Those folks do deserve to be rewarded for their services, and compensated a little extra if they do an exceptional job. What I don't get is the set of unwritten and seemingly arbitrary rules regarding how much you're supposed to tip certain people in different lines of work.

I think it's pretty obvious that when you go out to eat, the standard tip is 15%. We probably all do this much more than we pay other people to attend to us in other sectors of the market. Plus, when you pay by credit card, there's a handy little line there indicating tip, so even if nothing written will usually say "15%" explicitly, that's generally considered common knowledge.

But you know what I didn't know for years and years? That you're supposed to tip the people who cut your hair. Once I found this out, I felt like a complete ass and found that I couldn't show my face again at the place that I used to get my hair cut. Now I know better, but I still find the procedure of paying for the actual haircut by credit card and then having to physically go give a few bills back to the hairdresser to be a bit awkward.

It also dawned on me a few years back that when you go to one of those car washes where they do it by hand, a tip for the guy who actually washed all your windows and toweled it all off before handing you back the keys is customary. Another thing that made me feel like an ass. I probably made some poor guy who slaves in the hot sun all day feel like he hadn't done a good job how many times? Why can't that just be an obvious part of the bill so that I can pay it upfront? That would be so much easier and then those guys would never get the shaft. (And it'd be fine to tip them extra for a really good job, and for a bad one, to complain and get the tip amount refunded.)

I still didn't know for a while exactly how much to tip these people, so I'd just make educated guesses based on what I saw others doing (even though I didn't know whether those folks paid a lot more for their services than I did for mine). One day I stumbled across a table detailing what percentage or amount is customary to tip certain people, and I thought, "Oh my gosh, there are so many people on here that I had no idea you were supposed to tip! How's a person expected to know all this stuff?"

And don't even get me started on those upscale places where they have a dude in the bathroom waiting to help you wash your hands and give you a towel, expecting a tip for the use of whatever toiletries they've got sitting there to entice you. I am not three years old. I don't need help going to the bathroom!

Basically, it feels like one of those unwritten rules of society that you're supposed to magically know or else risk looking incredibly rude. I believe the technical term for such a set of unwritten rules is "etiquette", which is basically just a fancy way of making others feel like they have less class than you do.

[enemy anemone]

THIS.

the other thing I didn't know was that you're not supposed to tip the hair stylist if he or she is the owner of the establishment. how was I supposed to know who is the owner? did I offend them with my tip? after I found out who is the owner do I stop tipping him/her? or would that hurt their feelings? I...I think I have no choice but to cut my own hair and cover it up with a hat. 

[murlough23]

I...I think I have no choice but to cut my own hair and cover it up with a hat. 

Which is considered rude inside a certain, undocumented list of establishments.

[enemy anemone]

[murlough23]

BEST. EMOTICON. EVER.

And seriously, you have no idea how many mishaps in my life can be summed up using phrases that begin with "How was I supposed to know... ?"

NP: "Mistakes We Knew We Were Making", Mae

[NewDimension]

And seriously, you have no idea how many mishaps in my life can be summed up using phrases that begin with "How was I supposed to know... ?"

A lot of mishaps do occur because of faulty or incomplete epistemological thoughts. But such is the state of human knowledge.

I think it's ridiculous for anyone to assume that someone else has knowledge about anything unless that person makes specific claims about said area of knowledge. So to some extent unwritten rules kind of seem like they were intended to remain unwritten once a majority of people declare that those rules aren't necessarily well-known. If the rules remain unwritten or not publicly declared in a way in which the majority of people can have widespread access to that knowledge, then it's just another societal system for "insiders" that have the knowledge, so as to separate themselves from the "outsiders" without that knowledge.

[murlough23]

A lot of mishaps do occur because of faulty or incomplete epistemological thoughts.

Yeah, and those epistemological failings have really pist me off.

[T-Bone]

I've been working delivering pizzas for the past few years, and most of my money comes from tips.  I have met some people who honestly never realized you're supposed to tip the delivery guy.  I guess I can kinda understand this, since they don't know that we're paid a tiny hourly wage and are reimbursed a miniscule amount for gas (and that we use our own cars).  What I can't excuse are the people who stare at the credit card slip I give them to sign and don't put a tip.  Or even better, when they go out of there way to write a big fat 0.00 on the tip line.  Seriously?

Needless to say, I've definitely become more generous with my tipping at restaurants and such.  And my mom told me to always tip my hairsylist, so I've known that for as long as I've been getting my hair cut on my own.  But I do think its pretty silly to assume people just know who and how much to tip in all situations. 

[Vlad!]

What I can't excuse are the people who stare at the credit card slip I give them to sign and don't put a tip.

Well, when I go to pick up a pizza at the local pizza joint, the receipt I get there includes a line for a tip as well. I think tipping is a stupid practice and that the full, honest wage of the employee should be factored into the price of the product, but I'm assuming that the people who actually make the pizzas are paid adequately and thus there is no reason to leave a tip in this case.

Also, I have no tolerance for professions who have added tipping as a "customary" practice. I don't get my hair done (because I'm, you know, a dude, and dudes don't get their hair did), but hairstylists are an example. Taxi cabs are another.

On the other hand, I am always willing to tip for extraordinary service. For instance, once I was coming back from out of town and I didn't feel like making dinner so late at night so on my way home I called the pizza place and placed an order that I would pick up. I got there at about 9:10, only to realize that they closed at 9 and had been keeping it open for me. I definitely filled out the tip line that time around.

[murlough23]

I've been working delivering pizzas for the past few years, and most of my money comes from tips.  I have met some people who honestly never realized you're supposed to tip the delivery guy.

Now that, I actually knew.

I guess I can kinda understand this, since they don't know that we're paid a tiny hourly wage and are reimbursed a miniscule amount for gas (and that we use our own cars).

Now that's just stupid. You should be able to recoup the full cost of the places your job requires you to go. ("Should" meaning in an ideal world; not that I disbelieve the actual situation you are describing.)

What I can't excuse are the people who stare at the credit card slip I give them to sign and don't put a tip.  Or even better, when they go out of there way to write a big fat 0.00 on the tip line.  Seriously?

I think it's helpful that this line actually exists on the credit card slip; however, there are situations in which you'll see this and know that a tip is not necessary (as in Vlad!'s example where he picked up the pizza). But that's gotta be awkward, because the reminder is there and people still ignore it, and it's not like you can tell 'em the tip is compulsory, even though that's really how you make money.

The only excuse for going out of your way to write zero (or an unreasonably small amount) on the tip line is to point out that you felt the service was bad. For example, I'd expect this if you delivered someone's pizza exceptionally late and it was lukewarm or whatever. Otherwise, if you leave it blank, it's basically assumed that you're ignorant of the practice. Writing zero on that line when you performed the service you were expected to perform within reasonable time constraints is just an A-hole way of saying they're aware of the practice, but don't feel compelled to compensate you for it.

I remember going to Denny's with my mom once as a kid, and we had a really rude waitress who messed up our order and acted indignant about it when we asked her to take it back in exchange for what we actually wanted. So my mom left a penny tip. I asked her why she left anything at all, and she explained that if she hadn't left a tip, the waitress would have just assumed we forgot. The penny was a way of signifying that she did a horrendously bad job.

(I think my mom is also the reason Domino's discontinued the "30 minutes or it's free" thing. I was at her house once a few years back, we ordered a pizza online, and the thing actually tracked the time elapsed since the order for you. When the delivery guy got there, it showed 32 minutes and my mom actually showed this to the person and demanded a refund. The promotion still existed at that point despite not being heavily advertised, and it took a particularly lengthy call to a store manager to get it all settled. I was kind of embarrassed - I personally might've asked about it but not gone to all of that trouble. The end result was that the poor delivery guy was stuck at our house for the next 15-20 minutes while trying to sort it all out, which presumably made his other deliveries considerably late.)

I think tipping is a stupid practice and that the full, honest wage of the employee should be factored into the price of the product, but I'm assuming that the people who actually make the pizzas are paid adequately and thus there is no reason to leave a tip in this case.

This is how it should work in an ideal world, but since we're aware that it doesn't work this way, I figure tipping the people who are doing some sort of work for you that you cannot or don't want to do for yourself (such as going and getting the pizza) is a way of helping to restore the balance.

Also, I have no tolerance for professions who have added tipping as a "customary" practice.

Is that like restaurants adding a 20% gratuity for parties of 8 or more? I actually think it makes sense that they factor this in, because the wait staff will get seriously shafted if that party fails to tip. But I don't think it's fair that it's over the usual 15%. Unless your table was particularly difficult because everyone wanted separate checks or needed a bunch of table rearranged to accommodate them or something.

But given your logic above, if tipping were factored into the price to begin with, it would be clearly shown as "customary" in all cases, and you'd just have to pay that instead of having to know you were supposed to fill it in. Might make things easier and more fair, even if it doesn't give you an easy out when you get bad service.

I don't get my hair done (because I'm, you know, a dude, and dudes don't get their hair did), but hairstylists are an example.

I still get it cut. Maybe sometimes shampooed if I haven't showered right before going there (I don't want the barber to have to put his hands all up in my grimy hair.) This is cheaper than having it styled, but those folks still assume they're gonna get a tip.

On the other hand, I am always willing to tip for extraordinary service. For instance, once I was coming back from out of town and I didn't feel like making dinner so late at night so on my way home I called the pizza place and placed an order that I would pick up. I got there at about 9:10, only to realize that they closed at 9 and had been keeping it open for me. I definitely filled out the tip line that time around.

This is where tipping as a possibility but not a requirement is actually a good thing, because a customer who recognizes that an employee has gone above and beyond the call of duty can reward this behavior. Still, there's no rule saying you couldn't give extra even if the tip were factored into the actual bill (and in this case, since it wasn't a delivery, there shouldn't be one factored in). I will often round up just to make the math less of a headache in restaurants when I feel like the wait staff has been particularly attentive or I made a special order or whatever.

You know what's the one thing I really can't stand? Valet parking. I've probably complained about this before, but I don't want to pay some dude $7 just to park my car. (And that's estimating low.) Not only is there a standard, expected price demanded upfront, but then when I go get my car later, the dude expects a tip! I can see this being nice for people who don't want the hassle of parking their car in a crowded urban area, or who are in a hurry, etc. But when places only have valet parking and don't even give you a self-parking option, that just ticks me off. I'd rather save the money, circle around a bit, find my own space, and have to do a tricky parallel parking maneuver or squeeze in between two SUVs parked in compact spaces on my own than pay some other guy to pack my car into a bunch of tandem spaces where it will take him forever to get it out later. I'd probably rather even pay more for a self-parking lot just due to the principle of the thing. I just don't want someone I don't know driving my car. (I'll make an exception at car washes because I can keep an eye on the car during the entire process.)

[T-Bone]

I must say that I don't think I would ever actually get a pizza delivered myself (nor at this point would I be likely to order a pizza period.  But I would tip them if I did, since they actually drove it to me.  I understand not tipping in the store though.  

Also, I realized by putting hairstylist I apparently implied that I'm not a dude (which I am) and that I get my hair styled (which I don't).  I just happen to get haircuts from the same woman who does my wife's hair, so hairstylist is the best word I could come up with to describe her.  I did not realize my manhood was at stake.  

[T-Bone]

Now that's just stupid. You should be able to recoup the full cost of the places your job requires you to go. ("Should" meaning in an ideal world; not that I disbelieve the actual situation you are describing.)

No arguement here.  I do know its worse at other delivery places though, where they literally can't get any reiumbursement.  And I usually make enough from tips that I don't mind so much. 

The only excuse for going out of your way to write zero (or an unreasonably small amount) on the tip line is to point out that you felt the service was bad. For example, I'd expect this if you delivered someone's pizza exceptionally late and it was lukewarm or whatever. Otherwise, if you leave it blank, it's basically assumed that you're ignorant of the practice. Writing zero on that line when you performed the service you were expected to perform within reasonable time constraints is just an A-hole way of saying they're aware of the practice, but don't feel compelled to compensate you for it.

Yeah, I do get writing zero to make a point.  That's just usually not been the case with me.  Ordering pizza online has also made it interesting since the person ordering puts the tip on when they make the order, so it has nothing to do with the actual quality of the service (although they could technically change it later, it would just be a major hassle).  It is also interesting because the driver knows their tip before they leave the store, so a high tip will either get them to get your pizza to you faster (what I usually do), or not worry about it because they know they're getting that amount either way.  I've gotten four cents from a web order before, so the person could round the amount to the nearest dollar.  Needless to say I wasn't too eager to get them their pizza. 

[Vlad!]

Is that like restaurants adding a 20% gratuity for parties of 8 or more? I actually think it makes sense that they factor this in, because the wait staff will get seriously shafted if that party fails to tip. But I don't think it's fair that it's over the usual 15%. Unless your table was particularly difficult because everyone wanted separate checks or needed a bunch of table rearranged to accommodate them or something.

Actually, what I meant is places that put out tip jars or otherwise imply that tipping is customary when it in fact is not. The Quizno's down the street from where I live does this. Even hairstylists--I'm obviously not familiar with that business (what with not being a pitiful girly-man and all ), but I'm pretty sure traditional barbers don't require tipping.

(And for what it's worth, I cut my own hair...so it's not like I'm stiffing some poor barber even if I'm wrong about the above).

[Vlad!]

Also, I think tipping forum admins should become customary.

[enemy anemone]

I think we should tip them over while they sleep standing up.

[murlough23]

I do know its worse at other delivery places though, where they literally can't get any reiumbursement.

Ooh-wee! What up wit dat?

Yeah, I do get writing zero to make a point.  That's just usually not been the case with me.

Yeah, I was presuming you were actually good at your job.

Ordering pizza online has also made it interesting since the person ordering puts the tip on when they make the order, so it has nothing to do with the actual quality of the service (although they could technically change it later, it would just be a major hassle).  It is also interesting because the driver knows their tip before they leave the store, so a high tip will either get them to get your pizza to you faster (what I usually do), or not worry about it because they know they're getting that amount either way.  I've gotten four cents from a web order before, so the person could round the amount to the nearest dollar.  Needless to say I wasn't too eager to get them their pizza.

<Spock>Fascinating!</Spock>

This almost turns the tables and makes your delivery efficiency a function of how well you are being tipped. However, a bad delivery at the same residence preceding your delivery could result in the person giving you a low tip, which would then result in you being in less of a hurry to deliver on time, which could result in another low tip... which leads to a chain of causality that makes my brain hurt.

(Incidentally, I once had a pizza arrive over an hour late due to what I'm presuming was a GPS/Google Maps fail. We live on South Granada Avenue. The delivery guy was sent to North Granada Avenue because the mapping technology misunderstood the query and defaulted to the closest thing it could find. Our address does not exist on North Granada. The stupid thing is, it's a three digit address, with Main Street being the obvious axis, so the real and fictional addresses were maybe five or six blocks apart, and thus only a drive of a few minutes away. Plus he had our cell number, and didn't think to call it until he was already running way late. I can understand getting lost if you're from out of town, but pizza delivery operates within an extremely local radius, so you figure the drivers should know the basics of navigating the roads in that area.)

Actually, what I meant is places that put out tip jars or otherwise imply that tipping is customary when it in fact is not. The Quizno's down the street from where I live does this.

Yeah, I don't get that either, but it's generally a gentle enough suggestion that it's easily ignored. Occasionally I'll dump my spare change in there if I don't want to hassle with it.

Now what REALLY annoys me is the tip jar at Coldstone Creamery. They'll sing an annoying song for you if you tip them. This ensures that I will never tip them.

Even hairstylists--I'm obviously not familiar with that business (what with not being a pitiful girly-man and all ), but I'm pretty sure traditional barbers don't require tipping.

Well gee, somebody's feeling the need to over-assert his masculinity here. If I cut my own hair, it would look horrible.

Also, I think tipping forum admins should become customary.

Only if it means you'll go out of your way to let the tipper bend the rules.  

[Vlad!]

Well gee, somebody's feeling the need to over-assert his masculinity here. If I cut my own hair, it would look horrible.

Hey, at least I'm not the "guy" getting his hair styled by a woman....

(lol sexism)

This almost turns the tables and makes your delivery efficiency a function of how well you are being tipped. However, a bad delivery at the same residence preceding your delivery could result in the person giving you a low tip, which would then result in you being in less of a hurry to deliver on time, which could result in another low tip... which leads to a chain of causality that makes my brain hurt.

I had a similar Catch-22 when I was being moved down to North Carolina. I wasn't sure if I should tip the movers after they packed up (theoretically ensuring an enthusiastic unpacking at the other end) or just tip them at the end. I chose to tip them at the end, but their service was somewhat lackluster. They were also noticeably happier and politer after I tipped them, which made me think that tipping at the halfway point might have been prudent.

(I don't know if tipping movers is necessarily de rigeur, but my computer desk was made during the era when your furniture was expected to double as protection from a nuclear strike, so it's about a hundred pounds of steel with an inch-thick hardwood top. It's also about three millimeters less wide than the average doorway, making it a real pain. Since they moved it without complaining, I tipped them.)

[murlough23]

Hey, at least I'm not the "guy" getting his hair styled by a woman....

It gets cut by whichever haitcutter is available first. And they all do it pretty much the same since I tell 'em to just cut a certain length off and stick to the basics.

But I'm a city boy, so I'm probably metro by hick standards. 

I had a similar Catch-22 when I was being moved down to North Carolina. I wasn't sure if I should tip the movers after they packed up (theoretically ensuring an enthusiastic unpacking at the other end) or just tip them at the end. I chose to tip them at the end, but their service was somewhat lackluster. They were also noticeably happier and politer after I tipped them, which made me think that tipping at the halfway point might have been prudent.

I will make note of this, as I'm considering hiring movers when we next move. It'll be an in-town move, so probably less of a dilemma in terms of when to tip them.

[T-Bone]

Yeah, I was presuming you were actually good at your job.

Thank you.  

<Spock>Fascinating!</Spock>

This almost turns the tables and makes your delivery efficiency a function of how well you are being tipped. However, a bad delivery at the same residence preceding your delivery could result in the person giving you a low tip, which would then result in you being in less of a hurry to deliver on time, which could result in another low tip... which leads to a chain of causality that makes my brain hurt.

True.  Its interesting because I've gotten very different tips from the same people before.  I have to wonder if its a function of their previous delivery, if they're just strapped for cash that week, or some other random reason.  I've also been to houses where the wife tips more than the husband, and vice versa.  So I'm always hoping the higher tipper answers the door.  

(Incidentally, I once had a pizza arrive over an hour late due to what I'm presuming was a GPS/Google Maps fail. We live on South Granada Avenue. The delivery guy was sent to North Granada Avenue because the mapping technology misunderstood the query and defaulted to the closest thing it could find. Our address does not exist on North Granada. The stupid thing is, it's a three digit address, with Main Street being the obvious axis, so the real and fictional addresses were maybe five or six blocks apart, and thus only a drive of a few minutes away. Plus he had our cell number, and didn't think to call it until he was already running way late. I can understand getting lost if you're from out of town, but pizza delivery operates within an extremely local radius, so you figure the drivers should know the basics of navigating the roads in that area.)

I don't use a GPS, and know my area well enough now that I usually know where I'm going from the address.  I've gotten badly lost one time when the map at the store was wrong about where a certain street was and the guy I was delivering to wouldn't answer his phone.  I eventually found it by calling my dad and having him google the address.  

Well gee, somebody's feeling the need to over-assert his masculinity here. If I cut my own hair, it would look horrible.

Yeah, me too.  And now I feel the need to let my wife know I will be seeking out a barber to cut my hair, since going to a hairstylist is not manly and she expects a tip.  

[T-Bone]

Also, I think tipping forum admins should become customary.

Ok. Don't do drugs!

[murlough23]

I don't use a GPS, and know my area well enough now that I usually know where I'm going from the address.  I've gotten badly lost one time when the map at the store was wrong about where a certain street was and the guy I was delivering to wouldn't answer his phone.  I eventually found it by calling my dad and having him google the address.

I don't know how it's done nowadays. Back in the day I just assumed they used the Thomas Guide or something. Either way, a good faith effort to find the address and to contact the customer when all else fails (without waiting half an hour to admit you're lost) seems reasonable, which is what you did in this instance.

Yeah, me too.  And now I feel the need to let my wife know I will be seeking out a barber to cut my hair, since a going hairstylist is not manly and she expects a tip.  

Well hell, if you're already married, why bother cutting it at all? You can just let yourself go!  

And Vlad!... tell you what, I'll tip you 15% of whatever you're being paid to moderate the Phorum.

[enemy anemone]

apparently you *are* supposed to tip the barber.

http://www.tipping.org/tips/barbershop.html

re: manliness

[murlough23]

apparently you *are* supposed to tip the barber.

Right. I didn't think any of us were arguing that you shouldn't - just that it shouldn't be one of those veiled things that everyone is expected to know.

re: manliness

Thank you. Machismo ceases to serve its purpose when women are pointing out how stupid it is.

[Vlad!]

Right. I didn't think any of us were arguing that you shouldn't - just that it shouldn't be one of those veiled things that everyone is expected to know.

Actually, I think I said (and I definitely thought) that you didn't tip barbers, just stylists. Le sigh. I don't get my hair cut for a few decades and the world becomes full of sissy nancyboys asking for tips before they'll do the job you're paying them for.

Thank you. Machismo ceases to serve its purpose when women are pointing out how stupid it is.

It's not machismo (OK, so making fun of you and T-bone might be machismo, but I make fun of everybody so I don't think it is). I just have never seen the need to pay someone to cut my hair when I can do it myself for free.

[enemy anemone]

[murlough23]

Actually, I think I said (and I definitely thought) that you didn't tip barbers, just stylists. Le sigh. I don't get my hair cut for a few decades and the world becomes full of sissy nancyboys asking for tips before they'll do the job you're paying them for.

Barber. Stylist. Whatever. These words may not mean the same thing, but I was using them with intended equivalent meaning. The people who cut my hair are used to being tipped for this practice.

It's not machismo (OK, so making fun of you and T-bone might be machismo, but I make fun of everybody so I don't think it is). I just have never seen the need to pay someone to cut my hair when I can do it myself for free.

Well, you made the assumption that we were getting some fancy Hollywood styling or something done when really, it's just a no-frills trim. It's great that you can do it yourself. I do not possess the skill to do this, and frankly, I don't have the time or interest to learn how, so I'm fine with paying for this service.

I know it was all in jest, but I wanted to clear up the misconception just to be on the safe side. I honestly don't have enough interest to pursue an actual hairstyle. I just don't want it to be messy, inconvenient, and looking like I have no regard whatsoever for my personal appearance. Long enough to comb but short enough to not be shaggy is good enough for me. This does not relate in any way to my testosterone.

[enemy anemone]

yeah, I was responding to Vlad!'s earlier post

but I'm pretty sure traditional barbers don't require tipping.

and T-Bone's reply

And now I feel the need to let my wife know I will be seeking out a barber to cut my hair, since going to a hairstylist is not manly and she expects a tip. 

[Brenden]

I'd love to be waiting tables for a set wage instead of tips, but it would have to be a pretty good wage considering the crap most waiters put up with. I mean, with tipping I can average 16-17 bucks an hour and even more if the night is especially busy. If they tried to say I could have a set wage of ten bucks an hour, I would be less than inclined to stay at such a stressful job.

Really, as a tipped employee, it would make me most happy if I didn't have to pay the wages of my co-workers. A lot of restaurants will make the servers tip out bar, busser, and food runner enough to make their entire salary and only give them a meager hourly rate. This means that there are nights where anywhere from 30-85 dollars of my money will go towards paying other employees rather than me being able to take it home. If I've had a night of ten percent tips, that will make me really pissed off.

I'm just glad I have a freelance job on the side now and don't have to sweat it as much as a table slave.